Let's Talk About The FEV Virus

[Tagaziel]

My reaction to the above:

Please provide all relevant links and cited material for that conflagration of text.

If you can't be bothered to check the links where appropriate, don't respond, but work up the bother. All the links are there.

I mean, Supermutants in Bethesda games add basically nothing to the experience. They add a race of dumb orcs with no motivation to fight you beyond "We kill, our society is based around killing".

There's a little bit more to that. Strong's dialogue is mostly comic relief, but there's interesting bits in there too:

"All things for all super mutants. Super mutants not own things like humans. All share."

Imagine if the super mutants weren't terminal morons set loose by the Institute to run interference.

https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Strong's_dialogue

They took a once interesting part of the franchise and turned it in to nothing.

Super mutants were spent after Fallout 1. Nothing in subsequent games really detracts from them (if anything, it makes the new ones tragic).

So Shaun rejects cancer treatment, because he dismisses it as an "extreme end" without explaining why it is one, or what long-term harm will be done by it?

It's left to the player to interpret. Do you badger people who refuse chemo and demand them to explain why they think it's an extreme one? My grandfather rejected chemotherapy, because it would not save him. He was 80+ years old.

Great, so where was the in-depth research conducted by Bethesda when they wrote Kid in the Fridge?

Where was Black Isle's in-depth research when they wrote Coffin Willie and worked on Van Buren (where, in the Reservation design doc, the developer is not sure if ghouls actually need toilets, ignoring the fact they need water and food to survive)?

What you're getting hung up on is a small side-quest, ignoring the fact dumb design choices were also present in previous games. Yes, it's dumb. No, it does not overwrite existing lore. You would have a point if Fallout 4 was written by one, single person, rather than a group.

 

[Hassknecht]

The "cure" doesn't really work, though. ZAX states that it's not actually possible, which makes sense because the counter-FEV would need to infect the host with the original DNA of the host (wouldn't make much sense otherwise), which isn't quite possible because a virus can't contain a full human DNA, it's way too small. And an engineered virus that contains a full strand of a particular person's DNA would basically be as big as a normal cell by necessity, and thus couldn't quite function as a virus.
The cure would at least need to be tailored to a specific person.
But since it's all SCIENCE! babble it doesn't really matter.

 

[Tagaziel]

The "cure" doesn't really work, though. ZAX states that it's not actually possible, which makes sense because the counter-FEV would need to infect the host with the original DNA of the host (wouldn't make much sense otherwise), which isn't quite possible because a virus can't contain a full human DNA, it's way too small. And an engineered virus that contains a full strand of a particular person's DNA would basically be as big as a normal cell by necessity, and thus couldn't quite function as a virus.

FEV doesn't work in the first place, so SCIENCE! And also, we're talking pure DNA, not the entire cell or even its nucleus. Just the DNA. FEV is still fuckhuge regardless, described as a megavirus.

Furthermore, it could, in the setting, be accomplished by tailored RNA that rewrites the subject DNA to restore its original contents (which is basically what FEV does in the first place). Virgil could use blood samples to test it.

The cure would at least need to be tailored to a specific person.
But since it's all SCIENCE! babble it doesn't really matter.

Bingo. It precisely is, and only for that single person.

 

[Jogre]

There's a little bit more to that. Strong's dialogue is mostly comic relief, but there's interesting bits in there too:

"All things for all super mutants. Super mutants not own things like humans. All share."

I'm well aware that things like this exist, and that they do have some basic fleshing out.

I found the things Strong said to be interesting as well, and they would have been even more interesting if Supermutants had social structures, tribes, leaders, and motive to fight you.

But since they never went in to much detail in to Supermutant culture beyond Strong it feels like wasted opportunity, adding slight interest to them through the words of one companion, while making that the only depth to them.

Super mutants were spent after Fallout 1. Nothing in subsequent games really detracts from them (if anything, it makes the new ones tragic).

I'd say it detracts from them.

In previous Fallout games Supermutants had actual reasons to be fighting you. The Fallout 1 Supermutants because they were followers of an ideology that was focused on uniting humanity under a common cause, the Fallout 2 Supermutants because they were territorial after taking over Mariposa from the Enclave due to being used as mining slaves, the Fallout New Vegas Supermutants are under the influence of a manipulative, crazy dictator.

Bethesda reduces them to "Kill Human, We big strong warriors, let's suicide bomb ourselves", instead of giving them actual depth and reasons to fight you.

It's left to the player to interpret. Do you badger people who refuse chemo and demand them to explain why they think it's an extreme one? My grandfather rejected chemotherapy, because it would not save him. He was 80+ years old.

People reject chemo because it has a very low chance of actually being helpful(IIRC there's something like less than a 3% chance of having a positive impact)

FEV we're talking about a surefire way to get rid of the cancer. I genuinely don't see why Shaun wouldn't.

Where was Black Isle's in-depth research when they wrote Coffin Willie and worked on Van Buren (where, in the Reservation design doc, the developer is not sure if ghouls actually need toilets, ignoring the fact they need water and food to survive).

Coffin Willie: One minor mistake, not an entire questline. Plus it could very well be the case that it felt like months to Willie. Billy there's no ambiguity whatsoever, he says he's before the bombs, Bullet says Ghouls don't need to eat or drink, there's no possible justifications for it.

Reservation: Incomplete. They could have figured out the pee poop thing in the meantime.

 

[Einhanderc7]

If you can't be bothered to check the links where appropriate, don't respond, but work up the bother. All the links are there.

I edited my post after I posted (currently at work). Please review, also my intention is not to be inflammatory but to participate in the debate. However my request for additional information is still valid, please participate.

 

[Tagaziel]

I edited my post after I posted (currently at work). Please review, also my intention is not to be inflammatory but to participate in the debate. However my request for additional information is still valid, please participate.

Thanks. To cover this:

1. Reusing FEV isn't particularly original, but it isn't a game breaker for me. It was already reused in Fallout 2 to make FEV Curling-13, so it's not without precedent (not particularly original, much like the whole Enclave and the dumb Vault Experiments, but it happens).

2. You're not going to see "any indication that they moved the West Tek FEV any were else" because at the time they didn't know they'd be making sequels. However, note that it's not an absolute statement. According to the source, Major Barnett, the military liaison at West Tek (and only West Tek) ordered the research moved to Mariposa. A Major wouldn't be able to move all FEV research in existence to Mariposa, so that's still open ended.

3. I quoted ZAX to show that the cure is theoretically possible. Did you read the entire reply or just the first word ("No")? Because it clearly states that a virus that re-infects with the original DNA could succeed, but one would also have to remove the FEV. Which is a trivial matter compared to rewriting an entire genome.

I'm well aware that things like this exist, and that they do have some basic fleshing out.

I found the things Strong said to be interesting as well, and they would have been even more interesting if Supermutants had social structures, tribes, leaders, and motive to fight you.

But since they never went in to much detail in to Supermutant culture beyond Strong it feels like wasted opportunity, adding slight interest to them through the words of one companion, while making that the only depth to them.

You and me both, but it's not like they didn't think about it. Everyone prioritizes development and super mutants weren't a core part of it, just a side interest (much like the muties were in Fallout 2, mostly just random mooks to gun down in Central and flavor characters, with one companion).

I'd say it detracts from them.

In previous Fallout games Supermutants had actual reasons to be fighting you. The Fallout 1 Supermutants because they were followers of an ideology that was focused on uniting humanity under a common cause, the Fallout 2 Supermutants because they were territorial after taking over Mariposa from the Enclave due to being used as mining slaves, the Fallout New Vegas Supermutants are under the influence of a manipulative, crazy dictator.

Bethesda reduces them to "Kill Human, We big strong warriors, let's suicide bomb ourselves", instead of giving them actual depth and reasons to fight you.

That's your prerogative. I don't consider it a detraction because these aren't the same super mutants. They're distinct subtypes of humans made by people who either didn't know how to make it work (Merrick at V87) or didn't care (Institute). Different origins, different creatures, different modes of operation.

People reject chemo because it has a very low chance of actually being helpful(IIRC there's something like less than a 3% chance of having a positive impact)

I wholeheartedly recommend not listening to quacks.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chemotherapy-doesnt-work-not-so-fast-a-lesson-from-history/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/09/16/two-percent-gambit-chemotherapy/

Basically, chemo effectiveness varies, but it's generally one of the most effective ways at reducing mortality rates and/or removing cancer.

FEV we're talking about a surefire way to get rid of the cancer. I genuinely don't see why Shaun wouldn't.

That's what he says, there are ways. But he doesn't want to go to these extremes. Simple as that. Maybe he wants to die as human, maybe he wants to make way for you, maybe he doesn't want to become a monster.

The Master commits suicide when his dream is destroyed by you, despite the fact it could be reliably salvaged. You could just as well say that you genuinely don't see why the Master would do that.

Coffin Willie: One minor mistake, not an entire questline. Plus it could very well be the case that it felt like months to Willie. Billy there's no ambiguity whatsoever, he says he's before the bombs, Bullet says Ghouls don't need to eat or drink, there's no possible justifications for it.

You do realize that you're now just making an excuses for Coffin Willie, right? Why won't you make the same for Billy (hell, even the name fits)? Bullet's a raider with no real background in biology... Not to mention the Slog, man.

Reservation: Incomplete. They could have figured out the pee poop thing in the meantime.

It does show developers confused af.

 

[Einhanderc7]

I'm no longer certain there is any point in debating this further with you Tagaziel, you just dismissed my position based on "Just because" logic. If "Just because" logic is how this is going to continue, then I'm opting out before this gets any more radical.

In the mean time I'll be brushing up on my history with the lore, while I'm certain I'm making accurate points I would much rather ensure I'm not submitting incomplete, or incorrect information.

 

[Jogre]

You and me both, but it's not like they didn't think about it. Everyone prioritizes development and super mutants weren't a core part of it, just a side interest (much like the muties were in Fallout 2, mostly just random mooks to gun down in Central and flavor characters, with one companion).

I mean, Fallout 2 did go in to detail about what happened to the Supermutants after the fall of the Unity, and how they fit in to societies thereafter.

Plus, they were only in a small part of the map, so it's far more forgivable having these small one-off enemies who aren't properly explained, then it is spending half the game fighting these

That's your prerogative. I don't consider it a detraction because these aren't the same super mutants. They're distinct subtypes of humans made by people who either didn't know how to make it work (Merrick at V87) or didn't care (Institute). Different origins, different creatures, different modes of operation.

I get that they have different origins, and respect that, but taking a once-interesting part of the series and making it uninteresting doesn't really sit well with me.

Like what is the point in Supermutants even being in those games if they aren't going to make them interesting?

That's what he says, there are ways. But he doesn't want to go to these extremes. Simple as that. Maybe he wants to die as human, maybe he wants to make way for you, maybe he doesn't want to become a monster.

I mean, why would an intelligent man completely dismiss an idea because "I don't want to be a monster!!!!" despite it being completely reversible(They have an FEV cure), and there being nothing intrinsically wrong with being a supermutant.

The Master commits suicide when his dream is destroyed by you, despite the fact it could be reliably salvaged. You could just as well say that you genuinely don't see why the Master would do that.

Except the game literally allows you to mention that to him and change his mind about commiting suicide. The game is well-aware of this possibility, and allows you to bring it up/question what he's about to do. Because Fallout 1 literally thought about this, and came up with a response, instead of leaving you to fill in the blanks.

His suicide was a heat of the moment "What have I done!, All this for nothing", not a rational well-thought out thing.

 

[Tagaziel]

I'm no longer certain there is any point in debating this further with you Tagaziel, you just dismissed my position based on "Just because" logic. If "Just because" logic is how this is going to continue, then I'm opting out before this gets any more radical

Where is it "Just because?"

I mean, Fallout 2 did go in to detail about what happened to the Supermutants after the fall of the Unity, and how they fit in to societies thereafter.

Plus, they were only in a small part of the map, so it's far more forgivable having these small one-off enemies who aren't properly explained, then it is spending half the game fighting these

Sure, and FNV continues that story. Fo3 and Fo4 don't, and since they don't include the original mutants in the game, it's about least concern. Especially since Obsidian specifically redesigned the super mutants in FNV to avoid confusion.

I get that they have different origins, and respect that, but taking a once-interesting part of the series and making it uninteresting doesn't really sit well with me.

Like what is the point in Supermutants even being in those games if they aren't going to make them interesting?

Hey, I'm not fond of their presence either, particularly in Fo3. In Fo4 they are a part of the story.

I mean, why would an intelligent man completely dismiss an idea because "I don't want to be a monster!!!!" despite it being completely reversible(They have an FEV cure), and there being nothing intrinsically wrong with being a supermutant.

Because it's an extreme measure he doesn't want to go through with. You're arguing from the position of what you would do, failing to consider that Shaun might simply be unwilling to live for the sake of living. The clinical disconnect is part of his character and by the time of his death, he accomplished his life's goals and hands it over to their parent, who demonstrated their loyalty to the Institute time and time again.

Except the game literally allows you to mention that to him and change his mind about commiting suicide. The game is well-aware of this possibility, and allows you to bring it up/question what he's about to do. Because Fallout 1 literally thought about this, and came up with a response, instead of leaving you to fill in the blanks.

It doesn't:

https://fallout.gamepedia.com/MASTER.MSG

You can only convince him to live on if you provide more test subjects, triggering the bad ending. Otherwise, the Master commits suicide and there's literally nothing you can do to stop him. Assuming, of course, you succeed, because otherwise you're up for dipping or dealing with him the hard way.

His suicide was a heat of the moment "What have I done!, All this for nothing", not a rational well-thought out thing.

Which makes Shaun's decision all the more understandable to me. He doesn't want to live no matter the cost and that, to me, is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Jogre]

Hey, I'm not fond of their presence either, particularly in Fo3. In Fo4 they are a part of the story.

They seem just these enemies you fight, with no real justification, and not really adding anything, other than that the Institute experimented with FEV once or twice.

You can only convince him to live on if you provide more test subjects, triggering the bad ending. Otherwise, the Master commits suicide and there's literally nothing you can do to stop him. Assuming, of course, you succeed, because otherwise you're up for dipping or dealing with him the hard way.

Exactly, you can convince him that all is not lost, and he can have more test-subjects to experiment on.

That's literally what I was referring to.

 

[Tagaziel]

They seem just these enemies you fight, with no real justification, and not really adding anything, other than that the Institute experimented with FEV once or twice.

Continuously, more like, and every single one of these super mutants is a victim of the Institute's operations. It could be more emphasized in the story, I agree.

Exactly, you can convince him that all is not lost, and he can have more test-subjects to experiment on.

That's literally what I was referring to.

Precisely because it's a spur of the moment thing. Not a well-thought out decision, made after considering all the factors.

 

[Jogre]

Continuously, more like, and every single one of these super mutants is a victim of the Institute's operations.

In the same way that every Supermutant in Fallout 3 is a victim of Vault 87, but I don't see you praising that as the height of storytelling.

Do you really think Bethesda added Supermutants to 4 to show the lives ruined by the Institute? Hell they don't even bother exploring at all who these people once were, or the impact these Supermutants have on everyday lives, or anything like that.

They added the Institute Supermutants because they wanted an excuse to use over-used cliched fallout tropes, not because they thought they'd benefit the story or show the evils of the Institute.

You are reading in to the implications of it, and assuming that's what Bethesda intended, with 0 proof that it is what Bethesda intended.

 

[Tagaziel]

In the same way that every Supermutant in Fallout 3 is a victim of Vault 87, but I don't see you praising that as the height of storytelling.

Because they don't serve the story, but serve as random targets to shoot at and feel good. There's no punch to their existence, nothing. Same with the Enclave, it's just mooks in black armor running around killing people with no purpose.

Do you really think Bethesda added Supermutants to 4 to show the lives ruined by the Institute? Hell they don't even bother exploring at all who these people once were, or the impact these Supermutants have on everyday lives, or anything like that.

Yes, because I left hatred for Bethesda behind me a while back. The point is, I give them benefit of the doubt now, just like I do with Obsidian and many other developers. Saner that way and doesn't leave me bitter.

Sure, plenty of things could be done better, but no game is the height of perfection and every game sacrifices something.

They added the Institute Supermutants because they wanted an excuse to use over-used cliched fallout tropes, not because they thought they'd benefit the story or show the evils of the Institute.

You are reading in to the implications of it, and assuming that's what Bethesda intended, with 0 proof that it is what Bethesda intended.

And you can?

Given how Brian Virgil is included in the game and plays a pivotal role in convincing Li to abandon the Institute (though for unrelated reasons), it's evidence they did think this through.

I'm curious, what made you so prejudiced against all things Bethesda?

 

[Jogre]

Because they don't serve the story, but serve as random targets to shoot at and feel good. There's no punch to their existence, nothing. Same with the Enclave, it's just mooks in black armor running around killing people with no purpose.

The Supermutants in Fallout 4 don't serve the story any more than the Fallout 3 ones do. They simply exist to be a repeated trope.

Yes, because I left hatred for Bethesda behind me a while back. The point is, I give them benefit of the doubt now, just like I do with Obsidian and many other developers. Saner that way and doesn't leave me bitter.

Thing is, I never had to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt. You can see justifications for everything they included, and good writing seeps through it.

Bethesda you have to read too much in to there writing and assume that's there's some clever undertones that they legitimately meant, when in reality they probably didn't even think that far ahead, and you're probably making some shit up to defend a company that half-assed everything they do.

Sure, plenty of things could be done better, but no game is the height of perfection and every game sacrifices something.

Bethesda sacrifices Roleplaying Elements and Good Writing and gives us nothing back in return.

And you can?

I mean, if there's a complete absence of good writing, I wont try and overanalyse things and assume Bethesda meant to be clever, I'll see it how it is.

Given how Brian Virgil is included in the game and plays a pivotal role in convincing Li to abandon the Institute (though for unrelated reasons), it's evidence they did think this through.

I fail to understand how "Help my friend and I'll leave" shows that they thought it through.

I'm curious, what made you so prejudiced against all things Bethesda?

I have literally no bias against Bethesda.

If they made a good Fallout game I would be praising it.

So far, they haven't.

Why are you assuming that I have some kind of prejudice against Bethesda, instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt?, Do you only give people the benefit of the doubt when it helps you feel better about what happened to a game series you like?

 

[Tagaziel]

The Supermutants in Fallout 4 don't serve the story any more than the Fallout 3 ones do. They simply exist to be a repeated trope.

We just went over this.

Thing is, I never had to give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt. You can see justifications for everything they included, and good writing seeps through it.

Bethesda you have to read too much in to there writing and assume that's there's some clever undertones that they legitimately meant, when in reality they probably didn't even think that far ahead, and you're probably making some shit up to defend a company that half-assed everything they do.

Bethesda sacrifices Roleplaying Elements and Good Writing and gives us nothing back in return.

I mean, if there's a complete absence of good writing, I wont try and overanalyse things and assume Bethesda meant to be clever, I'll see it how it is.

I have literally no bias against Bethesda.

That's cute.

I fail to understand how "Help my friend and I'll leave" shows that they thought it through.

It pays to actually play the game you're whining about.

Because that's not what you do.

At all.

For Madison Li.

Why are you assuming that I have some kind of prejudice against Bethesda, instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt?, Do you only give people the benefit of the doubt when it helps you feel better about what happened to a game series you like?

See above.

 

[Jogre]

We just went over this.

And you failed to prove that Bethesda actually thought through the Supermutant business and how it represents the atrocities of the Institute rather than adding them as a trope, without properly thinking them through

That's cute.

What?

You aren't proving that I have a bias against Bethesda.

All I was saying is that Obsidian's good writing is obvious and anyone can see it.

Bethesda's good writing is practically non-existent

It pays to actually play the game you're whining about.

Because that's not what you do.

At all.

For Madison Li.

Burden of proof friend.

Please demonstrate how Madison Li's quest shows that they've thought through this Supermutant business.

 

[Tagaziel]

And you failed to prove that Bethesda actually thought through the Supermutant business and how it represents the atrocities of the Institute rather than adding them as a trope, without properly thinking them through

You haven't proved your point either, haven't provided so much as a sliver of evidence. All you can offer is the incessant repetition of "Bethesda is dumb" or a variation thereof, without actually providing evidence or explaining how it's dumb.

What?

You aren't proving that I have a bias against Bethesda.

All I was saying is that Obsidian's good writing is obvious and anyone can see it.

Bethesda's good writing is practically non-existent

Cute. Especially the "anyone can see it" part.

Burden of proof friend.

Please demonstrate how Madison Li's quest shows that they've thought through this Supermutant business.

See, the problem here is that you demand that I prove it according to your incredibly inflated standards based, without so much as trying to prove your position.

 

[Einhanderc7]

You haven't proved your point either, haven't provided so much as a sliver of evidence. All you can offer is the incessant repetition of "Bethesda is dumb" or a variation thereof, without actually providing evidence or explaining how it's dumb.



Cute. Especially the "anyone can see it" part.



See, the problem here is that you demand that I prove it according to your incredibly inflated standards based, without so much as trying to prove your position.

I think @Jogre has a valid point, not only did you refuse to provide requested sources to myself, but your also ignoring everyone else's views or positions. How do you expect to participate in a civilized discussion if you consistently refuse to meet everyone half way?

While I may not know you or have had much experience with you @Tagaziel , I don't want this continuing senseless friction to turn into a "shouting" match based on "just because" logic. Also Just because logic is when someone is engaged in a debate and refuses to provide proof to reinforce their position, insisting others believe them "Just because" they said so. If you expect anyone to find your views to be valid, and worth merit please provide the requested information that we request so that we may learn.

At least then we might find common ground.

 

[Tagaziel]

I think @Jogre has a valid point, not only did you refuse to provide requested sources to myself,

I provided them, with direct links to heavily sourced articles that have extensive citations (much of it by myself), and explained what the meaning is.

but your also ignoring everyone else's views or positions.

I don't. The problem is, a lot of these responses are essentially bashing for the sake of bashing, like Joggie, whose contents can be summarized as "BAD! SIMPLISTIC! YOU'RE OVERTHINKING! BETHESDA IS DUMB!", instead of providing any sort of reasoned argument.

How do you expect to participate in a civilized discussion if you consistently refuse to meet everyone half way?

It would be nice for others to show that courtesy too, meeting me half-way.

While I may not know you or have had much experience with you @Tagaziel , I don't want this continuing senseless friction to turn into a "shouting" match based on "just because" logic. Also Just because logic is when someone is engaged in a debate and refuses to provide proof to reinforce their position, insisting others believe them "Just because" they said so. If you expect anyone to find your views to be valid, and worth merit please provide the requested information that we request so that we may learn.

What are you referring to? Because I clearly explained to you where it's established that the cure is possible and provided you with links. For someone who uses a Lieutenant avatar, you are terribly bad at comprehension.

 

[Einhanderc7]

I provided them, with direct links to heavily sourced articles that have extensive citations (much of it by myself), and explained what the meaning is.



I don't. The problem is, a lot of these responses are essentially bashing for the sake of bashing, like Joggie, whose contents can be summarized as "BAD! SIMPLISTIC! YOU'RE OVERTHINKING! BETHESDA IS DUMB!", instead of providing any sort of reasoned argument.



It would be nice for others to show that courtesy too, meeting me half-way.



What are you referring to? Because I clearly explained to you where it's established that the cure is possible and provided you with links. For someone who uses a Lieutenant avatar, you are terribly bad at comprehension.

This is unfortunate, I'm not exactly sure why you felt it is necessary to insult me. From my perspective communication has simply broken down. If you are unwilling or incapable for some reason to be reasonable then I simple can't do anything about that.

Good luck I guess with what ever your objective is then?