Let's Talk About The FEV Virus

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by The King of The Worms, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Wait, so I provide sources, explain my point at length, then you insult me and lie that I didn't, so when I get snippy, you act offended?

    And I'm supposed to be the unreasonable one?
     
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  2. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    You are the one asserting that Bethesda has good writing. You are making the positive claim. Offer evidence that they have good writing and that they have put thought in to it.

    My evidence they haven't: What are the Institute's motives, long term goals, what are there justifications for all the things they do and why do they need to infiltrate the surface?, Why is the Railroad's password "Railroad"?, Why do the Railroad have a line leading to there main base of operations?, What is the point in the Institute even making Synths?

    These questions are not answered in game, meaning the writing is full to-the-brim of plotholes
     
  3. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I just did, below. Now, your turn, provide evidence that it's bad writing. Preferably without resorting to your usual hymn of "OVERTHNKING AND OVERNALZYING".

    1. Preservation of humanity in the long term. They consider themselves to be a priority, because previous attempts at stabilizing the Commonwealth went belly up.

    Shaun: "This is the reality of the Institute. This place, these people, the work we do. For over a hundred years, we've dedicated ourselves to humanity's survival. Decades of research, countless experiments and trials... A shared vision of how science can help shape the future. It has never been easy, and our actions are often misinterpreted by those above ground. Someday, perhaps, we can show them what we've accomplished. But for now, we must remain underground. There's too much at stake here to risk it all. As you've seen, things above are... unstable."

    And:

    Shaun: "The Institute... It's important. It really is humanity's best hope for the future, no matter what those above ground might think of us."

    Survivor: "They need your help, Shaun. It's rough up there, to say the least."

    Shaun: "Oh, we've tried that. Surprised? The Institute once tried to help create a stabilized Commonwealth government. It ended in bickering, infighting... it was a disaster. No, we look after our own now. Ultimately the Commonwealth has nothing to fear from us. Whatever you've seen or heard, I know I can convince you of that."

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Shaun's_dialogue

    The game provides enough material to suggest it may have been a deliberate ploy by some of the more isolationist elements of the Institute. To appreciate it, you might want to let go of your irrational hatred of Bethesda:

    "Look, Director, I'm going to make the same recommendation I did last time. We did everything we could. Four years dedicated to preserving this "Commonwealth Provisional Government." You've seen the same reports I have. It's falling apart, and fast. We need a plan for what happens when that fall is complete. I know some of the other Divisions have suggested we just cut off all contact; hide underground and pretend nobody's home. That would, in my opinion, be a mistake. We can't just give up on these people. And with the Android program, we don't have to. We'll soon have the capabilities to deploy androids to the surface in great enough numbers to maintain order. Just... Just think about it, all right? Keep it in mind moving forward."

    So you have elements that want to help the people and deploy to the surface en masse, except the CPG massacre happens instead. The Broken Mask seals the deal. The fact that it all involves synths suggests that the SRB is interfering. Justin Ayo being an arse doesn't help.

    "Dammit, Galton... What the hell is going on down there? I have to convene an emergency Directorate meeting because of this screw-up. That synth was a prototype. It was absolutely not ready for field testing! I will be very clear: my legacy as Director will not be tarnished by your division's mistakes. I am going to find out exactly who approved any sort of operation above ground, and that person will be held fully accountable. The mess it caused in Diamond City threatens decades of work to keep us out of the spotlight..."

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Director's_recordings

    2. Their long-term goals shift with every Director, which is a core theme of the Institute. It's incredibly advanced, but lacks guidance and leadership to make it matter to more than just the handful of sequestered scientists (monks, if you will). The selling point is your ability to influence and lead the Institute. Shaun pretty much spells it out: The divisions are largely autonomous and the Director is central to setting policy. Weak Directors = No guidance.

    Survivor: "What would it mean to be in charge?"

    Shaun: "Most divisions of the Institute are fairly autonomous, perfectly capable of functioning without intervention. Where those divisions interact, however, problems can arise. You'd lead the Directorate in setting policy, resolving disputes, and the like. There's no question that some of the Directorate, and the Institute at large, will need reassurances about your appointment. That's why I'd like you to take charge of this latest operation. Doctor Filmore can fill you in on the details. There are hard decisions ahead. For all of us, but for you especially. I know that you'll do the right thing."

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Shaun's_dialogue

    3. The justification is that whatever they sacrifice short-term ultimately benefits humanity in the long term. Ends justify the means. Again, moral myopia is a core theme of the faction. They also don't view the other options as valid:

    Shaun:

    "I hope you can see that, rationally, the Institute is the only thing left in the world that's worth being part of."

    (then, depending on who you asked for aid in building the molecular relay)

    "The Brotherhood of Steel... they believe they're the only ones fit to control technology, and destroy anyone who opposes them. And you would side with them?"

    "This... "Railroad." Willing to sacrifice humans for the sake of synths. Think about that for a moment. Would you kill your fellow man to save a Nuka Cola machine? They have completely disconnected from reality."

    "These Minutemen, claiming to want to save the Commonwealth... from itself? They cannot even protect themselves. Their cause is a doomed one. Shaun: None have any true claim to nobility in this world. Those days are gone. But we are not the monsters we have been cast as."

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Shaun's_dialogue

    4. The Commonwealth is a giant petri dish, where they can test their inventions in a live environment (Building a Better Crop comes to mind). It also pays to keep tabs on what happens on the surface. You know, basic security.

    Survivor: "Why do you care what happens on the surface? You're in your own world down here."

    Shaun: "Because there are forces on the surface that could pose a threat to us, and only a fool ignores a possible threat."

    Looks like I did. But you'll just respond by way of a variation on BETHESDA IZ DUM, right?
     
  4. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    So to preserve humanity, rather than working on defences for the Institute, weaponry, or things that increase there long-term survival, they make robot slaves, which do jobs that basic Mr Handies could do?

    Legit.

    They can talk the talk, but show not tell. They can talk about "We're the future, we want to preserve humanity", but why don't they make ways to drink sea water, or long-term power sources, or fast breeding machines to replace there losses, or cures for diseases, or literally anything other than inefficient slave robots.
    I read through those citations, and all I saw was evidence that there were factions who wanted to stay underground, none that suggested they wanted to interfere.

    Are you sure they are suggesting that, or do you think that may just be your interpretation?, It could very well be that you are assuming they are cleverer than they are.
    Let me put it this way.

    If the player could completely change policy as director: There is no reason for them to oppose the Brotherhood or Railroad as they could literally ally with them. They could literally wait for Shaun to die then forge an alliance with either one, and support there goals. This would make the entire conflict in the game meaningless.

    Also, if the player could completely change policy as director, any ambiguity towards the Institute is gone, since the player can literally change it.

    If the player didn't have enough control to completely reform the Institute: There would be literally no reason to side with them.
    Is there any stated proof that this is a core theme of the faction or are you just assuming that this is what Bethesda is going for?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
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  5. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    You want to know why Fo4's writing is objectively bad? Okay, I'll just apologize ahead of time if I give you the third degree. It's just the writing that bugs me, honest.

    "motives, long term goals, what are there justifications for all the things they do and why do they need to infiltrate the surface?"

    What does it mean to preserve humanity in the long term? How do they define humanity? Why should it be preserved? How will they do it? This is an example of shallow writing because it has no depth. As soon as you move past the surface level there isn't anything left.

    "Shaun: This is the reality of the Institute. This place, these people, the work we do. For over a hundred years, we've dedicated ourselves to humanity's survival. Decades of research, countless experiments and trials... A shared vision of how science can help shape the future. It has never been easy, and our actions are often misinterpreted by those above ground. Someday, perhaps, we can show them what we've accomplished. But for now, we must remain underground. There's too much at stake here to risk it all. As you've seen, things above are... unstable."
    "Shaun: The Institute... It's important. It really is humanity's best hope for the future, no matter what those above ground might think of us."

    This says exactly nothing. It's just a bunch of irrelevant details like how long they've been doing, whatever it is they've been doing, without saying what that is let alone why. It does however show that this 'goal' of theirs is just a fancy phrase for survival. So all we know thus far is they want to survive. Great. Who cares? Everyone wants to live. Oh, also I moved your quotation marks because it was bugging the hell out of me with the colon outside of it. In writing it's one or the other, unless you're quoting something that didn't use quotation marks. Not sure if that's how it was formatted when you grabbed it, but it's just a pointer.

    "Survivor: They need your help, Shaun. It's rough up there, to say the least."
    "Shaun: Oh, we've tried that. Surprised? The Institute once tried to help create a stabilized Commonwealth government. It ended in bickering, infighting... it was a disaster. No, we look after our own now. Ultimately the Commonwealth has nothing to fear from us. Whatever you've seen or heard, I know I can convince you of that."

    At best all that tells us is why they don't do something anymore, and at that--only insofar as they failed. So basically now we know they suck at helping people, and use their failures to justify doing...whatever it is they are doing, which still isn't even clear.

    "The game provides enough material to suggest it may have been a deliberate ploy by some of the more isolationist elements of the Institute."
    ...
    "Look, Director, I'm going to make the same recommendation I did last time. We did everything we could. Four years dedicated to preserving this "Commonwealth Provisional Government." You've seen the same reports I have. It's falling apart, and fast. We need a plan for what happens when that fall is complete. I know some of the other Divisions have suggested we just cut off all contact; hide underground and pretend nobody's home. That would, in my opinion, be a mistake. We can't just give up on these people. And with the Android program, we don't have to. We'll soon have the capabilities to deploy androids to the surface in great enough numbers to maintain order. Just... Just think about it, all right? Keep it in mind moving forward."
    ...
    "So you have elements that want to help the people and deploy to the surface en masse, except the CPG massacre happens instead. The Broken Mask seals the deal. The fact that it all involves synths suggests that the SRB is interfering. Justin Ayo being an arse doesn't help."
    ...
    "Dammit, Galton... What the hell is going on down there? I have to convene an emergency Directorate meeting because of this screw-up. That synth was a prototype. It was absolutely not ready for field testing! I will be very clear: my legacy as Director will not be tarnished by your division's mistakes. I am going to find out exactly who approved any sort of operation above ground, and that person will be held fully accountable. The mess it caused in Diamond City threatens decades of work to keep us out of the spotlight..."

    "We can't just give up on these people" is not a motivation. It's not even a reason, and that's literally the closest those quotes get to giving us a reason for why they did any of this. It's just as reasonable to interpret this as a mistake, which is to say, it's not really part of the game's writing. There's also a difference between say 'peace' as a long term goal, and creating whatever the hell the provisional government was supposed to be, besides something which represents were sent to discuss. We can't even reasonable assume that these reps were to get any position of power, as opposed to merely being their to negotiate. They give us exactly zero details beyond a generic name for the organization. What did they want to achieve for instance? Power, peace, profit? What? They just generically want to help people, except they suck at it, and basically everything they've ever done canon-wise goes directly against this because why? The only thing these lines add is that they use their own failures as a justification for giving up. That's a generalization. Generalizations are about as deep as their writing gets.

    "2. Their long-term goals shift with every Director, which is a core theme of the Institute. It's incredibly advanced, but lacks guidance and leadership to make it matter to more than just the handful of sequestered scientists (monks, if you will). The selling point is your ability to influence and lead the Institute. Shaun pretty much spells it out: The divisions are largely autonomous and the Director is central to setting policy. Weak Directors = No guidance."

    They shift? From what? So far you've only given us one, and it's shallow. The rest are just details of their bureaucracy. Aka details no one in their right mind ever wanted. A mission statement, my kingdom for a bloody mission statement or list of values.

    "Survivor: What would it mean to be in charge?"
    Shaun: "Most divisions of the Institute are fairly autonomous, perfectly capable of functioning without intervention. Where those divisions interact, however, problems can arise. You'd lead the Directorate in setting policy, resolving disputes, and the like. There's no question that some of the Directorate, and the Institute at large, will need reassurances about your appointment. That's why I'd like you to take charge of this latest operation. Doctor Filmore can fill you in on the details. There are hard decisions ahead. For all of us, but for you especially. I know that you'll do the right thing."

    You become manager of...something, and will be in charge of people who will do...something. So? How does that address the lack of a philosophy and other details?

    "3. The justification is that whatever they sacrifice short-term ultimately benefits humanity in the long term. Ends justify the means. Again, moral myopia is a core theme of the faction. They also don't view the other options as valid:
    Shaun: I hope you can see that, rationally, the Institute is the only thing left in the world that's worth being part of."

    That's a lot of verbiage for a short statement that says none of those things. Even so. What is benefiting humanity in the long term and how? The Institute will survive, so what? How does that accomplish anything other than survival of some humans? Why are they special? How is everyone is flawed/doomed? Since Shaun pretends to answer that last question, I'll address what he says. Which is basically 'look, it's just like I said', with a lot of verbiage to plump it up. Also that would actually be the opposite of myopic. Myopic is short sighted, hyperopic is far sighted. Which is itself in contradiction to some of their actions. Specifically the ones you were just talking about, i.e the provisional whatever. So that's a contradictory aspect of their 'nature', and thus an example of poor writing. As it invalidates any meaning we might induce from their actions regarding short and long term priorities.

    "The Brotherhood of Steel... they believe they're the only ones fit to control technology, and destroy anyone who opposes them. And you would side with them?"
    "This... "Railroad." Willing to sacrifice humans for the sake of synths. Think about that for a moment. Would you kill your fellow man to save a Nuka Cola machine? They have completely disconnected from reality."
    "These Minutemen, claiming to want to save the Commonwealth... from itself? They cannot even protect themselves. Their cause is a doomed one. None have any true claim to nobility in this world. Those days are gone. But we are not the monsters we have been cast as."

    That's criticism. It doesn't tell us anything other than how they view others. Does the Institute believe in sharing knowledge or tech? Nope. Do they believe in destroying anyone who opposes them? Yes. These statements only show that they are again contradictory, or hypocritical. That doesn't really help your case.

    "4. The Commonwealth is a giant petri dish, where they can test their inventions in a live environment (Building a Better Crop comes to mind). It also pays to keep tabs on what happens on the surface. You know, basic security.
    "Survivor: Why do you care what happens on the surface? You're in your own world down here."
    "Shaun: Because there are forces on the surface that could pose a threat to us, and only a fool ignores a possible threat."

    Inferences and shallow observations. They want security. So what? Who doesn't? Assuming they view the outside world that way for the sake of argument, what does that say about them? That they test things in the field? Is that supposed to be a meaningful observation? Am I supposed to be impressed that they eventually test things in the field, and not just in a laboratory? I get it, they're 'scientists'. What else?
     
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  6. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    Fallout 4- November 10, 2015
    Westworld- 1973

    Are you dumb? Its entirely plausable they ripped off westworld. They rip stuff off all the time. Look at the fo4 mirelurk redesign. It's just the garthim from the dark crystal. And I don't mean they're just kinda similar.
    Garthim.jpg

    it is without taking or adding... The same thing.

    Edit: someone beat me to the westworld bit. I really gotta admire your dedication tagz. Really.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  7. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    I'd ask you the same question. You are aware that the original Westworld is about animatronics going bonkers due to a computer virus, not synthetic near-human robots who might be sentient beings, right? There is zero overlap between Fallout 4 and 1973 Westworld.

    Oh wait, there is one, with Nuka-World: They both feature amusement parks and that's about it.

    While the leather jacket in Fallout 1/2/3 is Mad Max's gear taken verbatim!1!!!1!!

    Yeah, because self-repairing, highly intelligent machines that can adapt to the tasks on the fly, rather than repeating the same task ad infinitum due to bugs in programming, not to mention capable of using human equipment without adaptation are so much worse.

    Are you seriously missing the point where synths have much lower maintenance overhead and much greater flexibility than Handies?

    They have everything you say.

    Have you actually played the game and visited the Institute?

    Are you actually aware that long-term power source that frees them from dependence on the surface and scrounging for power is the fucking goal of the faction in the game?

    Or are you consistently arguing from a position of ignorance?

    Yes, they are suggesting that.

    CPG established -> CPG starts fraying at the seams -> Director suggests deploying synths/androids (the nomenclature is an interesting bit of lire in the game) -> A synth wipes out the CPG and the Institute is forced into hiding.

    I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply extending Bethesda the same courtesy as I do to Obsidian, spurred by the fact that my very first experience with the Brotherhood in the game was basically a galaxy away from the one in Fallout 3. A competent military formation that had a string of bad luck, trying to establish communications with command in order to arrange for extraction or reinforcements. Danse behaving like a competent soldier and ensuring you have his back and have a measure of competency. Not running away like a moron on self-righteous crusades.

    Compare that with Sarah Lyons and Lyons' Pride in Fallout 3, which is basically a bunch of post-apocalyptic Knights of Genetic Purity chasing mutants through DC and dying in comical, moronic assaults on entrenched positions, while putting raw recruits in the first line. Yeah.

    Did you miss the point where both the Railroad and the Brotherhood want the Institute dead now? No questions asked, no compromise, nothing? Because the Institute has time and again murdered most of the Railroad and has committed an act of war against the Brotherhood?

    You're now complaining for the sake of complaining.

    Is there any stated proof that this is a core theme of the faction or are you just assuming that this is what Bethesda is going for?[/QUOTE]

    Here's a friendly advice, from an admin who's been here for 14 years: Assuming you are right in advance and can burn other people is a sure sign of being an asshole, usually ending up in the Vats.

    Are you seriously asking what it means, or are you being obtuse on purpose?
    Explained above: After the failure of the CPG, they focus on themselves, not without a good reason (though the means they use are morally myopic).
    Are you fucking serious or just trolling?

    Explained at length, by me, by the game, by simply playing and noting that they've built a huge subterranean civilization from scratch, while advancing knowledge and science to the point they are the most advanced society in the wasteland.

    You know, a quality of life unheard of elsewhere in the wasteland, food, water, and medical care for every human in the Institute, a safe, prosperous life where you can realize your potential free of menial labor, and the goal of the game, total independence from the surface world thanks to the tokamak nuclear fusion reactor they rebuilt.

    No, it's an example of you being deliberately obtuse and asking dumb questions that have self-explanatory answers. "Why should humanity be preserved?" Really?

    So they don't say what they want, but they say what they want? You really haven't thought your post through, did you?

    You said it above: Survival. In a broader sense, their survival is the survival of humanity insofar they're concerned.

    And the above explains adequately why they aren't doing what they're doing. The CPG failed (just why it failed is an open question) and so did the Institute's largest project aimed at aiding the surface.

    Right. I assume you also need a specific motivation, pecuniary, perhaps, to help people in a disaster? Or do you pull of an Ayn Rand and leave people to die, because they need to learn not to burn alive themselves?

    Are you for fucking real? Do you expect a long-winded thesis establishing every single person who was a part of the CPG, including the number of warts on their asses?

    Obsidian does the very same thing with a great many elements of FNV, implying, rather than stating outright. I don't see you whining that you don't get a precise breakdown of the military structure of the New California Republic Army, combined with troop dispositions all along the Colorado.

    No, you get some basic information, that it still has divisions and battalions, they're fighting in the Mojave and along the Colorado and the situation is bad.

    Same with the CPG: You get basic information that it was an attempt at uniting and stabilizng the Commonwealth, it united the settlements together, got wiped out by a rogue synth.

    Double standards piss me off to no end. Almost makes me want to break out Rosh's custom titles.

    All of these are established by the characters. Not the writers' fault if people can't understand basic English.

    Now you're just trolling. The entire citation explains what being the Director entails.

    Reading Comprehension failure 101.

    Rosh level increasing.

    +1 Rosh

    +1 Rosh.

    Yeah, see, whenever someone claims they are burning someone, chances are, the only thing they are burning is themselves. In this case, your presumption that you are offering a counterpoint is hilarious, as you repeatedly ask questions that the very citations you contest offer.

    Since you're fond of burning, I can give you a very special avatar and rank. Just make another abortion like that.

    And to all of you, if you think I'm a bad person or pulling rank, yeah, cry me a fucking river. If you can't have a reasonable discussion like adults and resort to being purposefully obtuse, you will get treated like children.
     
  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    I don't really see synths being that advantageous tbh. For many menial tasks the human body isn't exactly well equipped. It would be much cheaper and more efficient to create robots to do special tasks. Especially robots that are not sentient and can rebel, that's just the oldest and stupidest trope in the book. You need someone to take care of the hydroponics? Why make fragile, bipedal beings that can actually think about their lot in life? Why not a robot that does it much better? People started using horses and oxen to till fields instead of humans because, well, humans kinda sucked at that.
    Yeah, flexibility is nice, but it would be much more efficient to create small flexible maintenance drones or something for that. Maintenance overhead? In a universe where it has been established that machines can function in rough environments without external maintenance for hundreds of years without many issues (except for maybe developing sentience by themselves, of course. Another seriously odd design choice in Fallout 4 imo)? C'mon. Maintenance can be automated as well, and charging/repair stations for robots are well established.
    Another thing that bothers me about 3rd Gen Synths is that they suddenly just appear. 1st and 2nd Gen, basically androids, rubber skin, easy to spot, as Kyle Reese would say. Then the Nick Valentine and DiMA prototypes, still basically robots, and then suddenly BOOM fully biological human clones with a chip in their brain (that apparently can't be found with any medical equipment, but I digress). 3rd Gen Synths are not an evolution of the previous generations, they're a radical new development and shouldn't even be called "3rd Gen". Now making human clones is not a stupid idea when you're a closed ecosystem with a limited gene pool like the Institute, but instead of stabilizing their society by cloning themselves they clone/engineer slaves? That seems kinda stupid. A better way to introduce some ethical conflict could have been to have the Institute being a stratified society of clones where everyone has a fixed position in life, so the tenth generation clone of a janitor will also be a janitor, which will not bode well with some folks. Too bad they already established their Blade Runner reference in Fallout 3...
    Anyway, long story short, while I do appreciate any Blade Runner reference, I don't think it has been thought out well in Fallout 4. Making sentient slaves that can rebel is never a good idea (to the point where this trope is getting really boring), perfect human clones that have no trouble fitting in with the outside world after they flee are an even worse idea, and doing all of that while reportedly being super smart is a bit too much for me to suspend my disbelief to. I get that scientists, especially when coming from a "military junta" (I disagree on that to some degree, btw., I thought the Enclave was supposed to be a shadow cabinet behind the normal US government, not a dystopian pre-war regime), can be really, really dumb at times and not care about any ethical implications, but the Institute blundered way too much in my opinion.
     
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  9. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Humans, yes. Universal robots based on the humans, no. Synths aren't fragile. They don't really need food or sleep, unlike humans, heal fast, are stronger and immune to radiation and disease. They do everything a robot can, but don't need maintenance as much as robots do. They generate their own oil, can repair themselves on their own without the need for additional work (short of total traumatic loss of a synth, which would be a write-off regardless)... Need I go on?

    You say that it can be done by creating one, universal robot. Ok. You're describing a synth. Flexible drone that doesn't need special debugging just to remove a pathfinding quirk, with no need for special charging/repair stations and performing automated maintenance on itself. The only difference is that this one's designed to use human facilities and tools. They don't need special charging and repair stations, reducing the drain on resources.

    Maintenance overhead is a thing. Machines can function in rough environments without external maintenance, sure, but there's a big difference between functioning and functioning properly. Most robots are damaged to the point they need to be destroyed, as their programming is corrupt, and, as Fallout 4 really shows for the first time in the series, they are basically floating derelicts: Missing plating, parts, manipulators, and so on and so forth.

    (Also, Hass, your post is self-contradicting. Machines don't need maintenance so you can automate maintenance? The series is notorious for Ragnarok proofing, but it still makes a point that maintenance is required: SAD functions, not because robots require no maintenance, but because it was specifically Ragnarok proofed, with automated repair and maintenance stations. Damaged robots, derelicts deteriorating due to lack of dilligent, dedicated and dutiful maintenance, also appear in the classics, like the Gecko reactor robot. )

    You are describing the Institute, you know. Except the factor that determines your position is the origin (womb or machine), not your genetic class.

    As for the 3rd Gens, you do realize that they are a technology that's after close to sixty years of development, right? This is explained in the game. The first Gen3s were T-800s:

    "Seemed like they had killed a man who had flipped his lid. Gone crazy. And he lay there like a dead crazy man, sure enough. God, it was horrible. But then we saw the plastic and the metal - this was one of them early synths, you see - and we realized it wasn't a man at all. It was then we all knew. The Institute wasn't just 'out there.' The Institute was everywhere now. Among us."

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Broken_Mask_Incident#The_Incident

    They aren't a new development. They've been perfected over the course of over half a century, with the Institute slowly replacing old Gen1 and Gen2 robots with Gen3 synths (recycling is a big, big part of the faction's theme, see here:

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Allie_Filmore's_dialogue

    I like digging through the dialogue, as there's a wealth of lore and story there. I wholeheartedly recommend forgetting it was made by Bethesda and just enjoying it - or applying the same standards to previous games. You can make Fallout and Fallout 2 suck if you have enough Hass, Hass.

    Uh, the pre-War United States was a dystopian fascist regime, Hass. You know, the whole racial persecution of Chinese-Americans, concentration camps, martial law, invasion and occupation of Canada, subjugation of Mexico, provoking the Chinese into a war, rampant nationalism and xenophobia, human experiments, shooting protesters in the streets...

    That said, you're making a mistake thinking that synth sentience is a feature, rather than a bug. Shaun makes it patently clear that it's a rather significant bug in their programming, though one that isn't a major problem (Railroad records show that pre-Patriot escapes were very limited, but the Institute still recovered them, likely to maintain secrecy). Given the limited number of escapees on the surface and the large numbers inside the Institute itself, it's clear they don't consider this a massive issue.

    Note one thing: Fallout 4 does not state whether synths and robots are sentient. You have two opposing points of view and you are expected to make a decision for yourself. I think this is glossed over frequently, particularly with people hating on Bethesda, but it's very subtle. For example, you get the impression Codsworth is sentient. I get the impression that it's just a sophisticated robot that can pull off a convincing impression of a sentient creature. Note how it doesn't escape the boundaries of its programming, still being, effectively, a slave in your service.
     
  10. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Fallout 2 strategies and secrets states that Mr Handies are capable of refueling, self-diagnostic, self-repair and cleansing themselves of radiation. That solves the self-repairing problem.

    Adapting to tasks on the fly: Well Fallout 2 shows us that Mr Handies can be programmed remotely, and given new orders. Simply have a tiny team of people adapting orders and issuing them remotely to a network of Mr Handies. Mining and Cleaning(The only really useful jobs we see Synths doing around the Institute

    Synths require an entire department to track them down and recover them. If them escaping isn't a big deal, how come an entire department, with a member in there little council is dedicated to preventing it?

    Put a Mr Handy squad in the mines, or on cleaning routine, and dedicate one person, all the same work gets done and for far, far cheaper, but instead they have robots that question why they are being put in the mines, and rebel, for no apparent reason.
    And they need to recover a pre-war device, instead of bothering to work on a new power-source?

    The Shi were supposedly less advanced, but have perfected biofuel in a limited amount of time. If the Institute actually put resources in to inventing something useful, rather than slaves to do jobs a Mr Handy with regular maintenance could do, they wouldn't need to go scavenging around pre-war ruins.

    I know the seaweed fuel source may not work as well in Boston, but they could make hydroelectric, solar, geothermal, whatever. Any power source that doesn't have them scouring pre-war ruins, but instead they make synthetic gorrillas and super-advanced mining slaves. They make alphas to do epsilon work.
    I don't need to extend any courtesy's to obsidian. They actually put the effort in to making a good debate over factions, which allows lots of speculation, but doesn't leave you entirely in the blank.

    Bethesda games require you filling in the blanks yourself and assuming its good.
    Let me put it this way, why not say to Desdemona "The director of the Institute is dying and wants me to take over after his death, if I take over I can save every single Synth ever."?, Tada, the whole choosing a faction thing becomes pointless.

    The Institute can release every Synth like the Railroad want but more efficiently. They can exterminate every Synth like the Brotherhood want but more efficiently. If you take full control over the Institute, the entire faction conflict becomes meaningless, because there is no reason to side with anyone but the institute.

    Anyway, on the "Your complaints are pointless" thread I'll try and give every example of bad writing in the game.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 4
  11. Zerginfestor

    Zerginfestor dear god, the scrapping

    405
    Apr 18, 2015
    The only real advantage the human mutants (If I recall, they're human clones with FEV injected within them during the process, right?) is the immunity to Diseases and Radiation as well as greater strength and tougher skin (which is thanks to the FEV) and a chip within their brain that allows the Institute to monitor and control them (somewhat, poor design, really). This is a big advantage if you're using scouts to travel across vast, dangerous landscapes, as well as possible foot soldiers.

    What I don't understand is..how exactly do they repair themselves? How come they don't need food or resources when the process of a gen 3. synth is basically making a human and have the FEV woven into them flawlessly? Because if I recall, I'm pretty sure Super Mutants need food as well, and I didn't remember any detail of how a gen 3 is 'repaired'. Is it just the FEV's quick healing factor and the Institute is just using 'repair' to distance themselves from their creation? I honestly don't know. Did they ever go into detail about this? I don't recall this, so I apologize if I'm incorrect.
     
  12. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    ... I wasn't saying they did rip off west world. You said check the release dates. I did. Based on the release dates alone it is plausable they ripped it off.
    They're very similar sure. But verbatim? No. But what else could full body leather armour look like anyway?

    2e3b029ce8725aeb4d54497e3a8064d2.jpg 1b leather jacket.jpg
    At any rate making a small homage to an iconic character in your game's genre by putting a leather jacket in the game isn't really the same as taking a fantasy movie's creature design and just... Taking it.

    Not that it matters. You seem to have an "everyone is wrong at all times but me" attitude.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 4
  13. You messed up a little there. The Leather jackets are similar, but what is a true imitation are the Leather Armors.


    Fo4 dropped the ball a bit and the outfit is composed of different pieces and a specific underlayer, but it's still there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2017
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  14. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    The fact that HBO copy-pasted (took it back?) Fallout 4's look in Westworld 2016 says alot.
    It says urine have eaten shit


     
  15. Eh, to be fair, both are ripping off Blade Runner. One does it to effect and serves as a successor, the other does it because there was a previous reference in the last game.
     
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  16. Einhanderc7

    Einhanderc7 Vat dipped, grown and still oozing with perfection

    858
    Apr 22, 2016
    @Tagaziel

    "I'd ask you the same question. You are aware that the original Westworld is about animatronics going bonkers due to a computer virus, not synthetic near-human robots who might be sentient beings, right? There is zero overlap between Fallout 4 and 1973 Westworld.

    Oh wait, there is one, with Nuka-World: They both feature amusement parks and that's about it."


    The point we are trying to make is that this specific introduction does not fit with the over all established theme and style of what a Fallout game is, in this case the scientific leap is so grand from what is supposed to be; a broken world trying to survive on the ashes of old. While I have no power over what Bethesda does with this IP, I can objectively state it deviates greatly for the overall original design.

    "While the leather jacket in Fallout 1/2/3 is Mad Max's gear taken verbatim!1!!!1!!"

    This is actually a wise design choice as not only did it fit with the setting the game was pointing towards, but also allowed a bridge to the fan base from the movie to the game.

    "Yeah, because self-repairing, highly intelligent machines that can adapt to the tasks on the fly, rather than repeating the same task ad infinitum due to bugs in programming, not to mention capable of using human equipment without adaptation are so much worse.

    Are you seriously missing the point where synths have much lower maintenance overhead and much greater flexibility than Handies?"


    Are you even reading your own statements? This is such a large divergence from the overall scope of Fallout it's literally magic in this case. All machines within the Fallout universe were intended to be the last flailing remains of the old world, infinitely stuck in their programming and design. The introduction of a Mary Sue such a the synths completely destroy the post apocalyptic design of the game. The whole point of Fallout was to introduce players to an environment where moral obligations are skewed and freedom is paramount. The last remains of a species trying to come to turns the the world that was destroyed by greed and power abuse. It's dark, punishing, and morally grey.

    Bethesda took a game that was intended to be an post apocalyptic game and made it sunny, friendly, and then forced it to fight with its own design. If you are looking for a Fallout game your aren't looking for Fallout 4, or Fallout 3. The reasons while not obvious to some can be understood by simply comparing the games designs, mechanics, and how they grapple with player choices.

    "They have everything you say.

    Have you actually played the game and visited the Institute?

    Are you actually aware that long-term power source that frees them from dependence on the surface and scrounging for power is the fucking goal of the faction in the game?

    Or are you consistently arguing from a position of ignorance?"


    The institute is a self contradiction, they claim to want to help and ensure humanities survival. But instead they fabricate near perfect human copies out of synthetic materials, replace the local population with them, then use them to assert control over that location. As well use those people within the infiltrated group to run experiments without there knowledge. I'm sorry if I don't understand but this sounds a lot like a vault-tech Enclave scheme than some other group with reasonable logic.

    If you also consider the fact that they do not have complete control over these synthetic humans, they are pretty much ensuring the failure of their own experiments. Here is a group of "scientists" the literally don't care about the scientific method, because they allow these synths to taint their results simply because they cannot fully control them.

    "Did you miss the point where both the Railroad and the Brotherhood want the Institute dead now? No questions asked, no compromise, nothing? Because the Institute has time and again murdered most of the Railroad and has committed an act of war against the Brotherhood?

    You're now complaining for the sake of complaining.

    Is there any stated proof that this is a core theme of the faction or are you just assuming that this is what Bethesda is going for?"


    The Brotherhood is surprisingly, in this case acting exactly as one would assume they would base on their design from the original Fallout games. They have identified a massive threat to their existence similar to the super mutant threat (literally a redo in this case with Shaun acting as the master if you are willing to squint a bit.) that could not only prove capable of eliminating them, but do so using technology so advanced its in line with magic. If you tell me there is no magic in this game, I will also have to refuse citing the fact that the institute use teleportation, which in this sense compared to the average wasteland survivor would be considered magic.

    "Here's a friendly advice, from an admin who's been here for 14 years: Assuming you are right in advance and can burn other people is a sure sign of being an asshole, usually ending up in the Vats."

    From my perspective in text context is basically impossible to convey, primers are often used to ensure that miscommunication is prevented or to inform the reader the intent before hand. However from reading your posts you have been very inflammatory, and abrasive with nearly everyone often resorting to derogatory phrasing and words to reinforce your points. If you weren't a admin/staff member I could easily see how someone would consider you a troll based on your responses. To be honest, my mind isn't made up if you are trolling us or not.

    I also don't believe the threat of Vats, is necessary either. To be honest the escalation of force to the post doesn't seem to me like a level headed response. Perhaps taking time away from the thread to consolidate your thoughts would be wise?

    "Yeah, see, whenever someone claims they are burning someone, chances are, the only thing they are burning is themselves. In this case, your presumption that you are offering a counterpoint is hilarious, as you repeatedly ask questions that the very citations you contest offer.

    Since you're fond of burning, I can give you a very special avatar and rank. Just make another abortion like that.

    And to all of you, if you think I'm a bad person or pulling rank, yeah, cry me a fucking river. If you can't have a reasonable discussion like adults and resort to being purposefully obtuse, you will get treated like children."


    I understand your perspective with this, but I also think it would be wise to consider your influence in the matter before dolling out punishments, or using an unfair advantage to ensure your position remains on top. If you cannot handle engaging with someone then simply find a way to deescalate the situation, if that fails then punishment would be a reasonable course of action. From my perspective, (and I'm sure there is a high chance of retaliation due to me trying to defend and mediate.) you are the first one to become inflammatory, I also think that many of us have joined into this discussion simply because you have been insulting and verbally abusing to the other members here.

    Lets act like adults and have a civilized discussion everyone, we are better than this.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  17. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    While pulling spare parts out from thin air! Did you miss the point where you don't need a welder to fix a synth?

    Right, so pull people from other jobs just to manage a team of robots. The entire point of the synth program is that you don't need to do that. You don't need to fix bugs. You don't need to worry about commands or debugging.

    If you played the game, you'd know that SRB handles far more than recovering rogue synths. Like surveillance across the Commonwealth. Infiltrators. Extermination teams.

    It's the military arm of the Institute.

    Why would they work with an inferior pre-War technology that requires major upkeep and creating an entire separate pipeline for manufacturing spare parts, hardware and software maintenance, and so on, when they can simply have self-fixing robots that require none of these and can use the exact same facilities as them, further reducing the strain on resources?

    I assume you're also wiping yourself with leaves, because it's an already proven technology that needs no iteration?

    Constant arguing from a position of ignorance.

    The Institute can make it run without the agitator, but the agitator is a shortcut that allows them to activate it before the Brotherhood can bring down the hammer. It gives them an advantage in the fight.

    And biofuel? Really? One of the least efficient power sources in the world? Are you for fucking real?

    Nope. Your bias is showing.

    You do realize that the prerequisite for taking over the Institute is wiping out the Brotherhood and the Railroad, right? You won't become a Director if you don't do that, because it's your proof of loyalty.

    It'd require playing it, which you obviously haven't done.

    And the Institute doesn't need to produce an entirely separate line of equipment just to equip them. They can re-use Gen2 gear and tools without any adaptation.

    It's not clones exposed to FEV, each Gen3 synth is 3D printed on a prefabricated skeleton. They have an excellent healing factor and while they don't explicitly need food and sleep to survive, they can ingest nutrients as normal. I wager it's a hyper-efficient SCIENCE! modification that makes them operate with minimal energetic input.

    Of course, there's a difference between "not needing" and "being unable to."

    That's the entire point of the Institute.

    The Institute is deliberately designed as a highly advanced, technological society to clash with what's on the surface. It's a conscious design choice! The leap is supposed to be grand, to hammer home that right there, underneath the ravaged Commonwealth torn apart by wildlife and raiders, lies a grand subterranean metropolis that offers an unparalleled quality of life compared to the rest of the world.

    You go from shacks, ruins, and at best the gritty, industrial splendor of the Prydwen, into what's basically the interior of a space ship. Sleek, elegant, and housing the greatest minds in the wasteland who are pushing the envelope. Manufacturing armies of synthetic creatures, mass-producing energy weapons, having food, water, and medical care for every human in equal amounts.

    It's the same thing as with the Vault City or the Enclave in Fallout 2: It's intended to contrast with the wasteland, by design.

    Or it's a reference to another medium, one of dozens. Fallout was always quite self-conscious and had a myriad of references, in itself being a melting pot of various influences:

    "However, the game's aesthetics have been inspired by a great variety of sources spanning most of the 20th century. These include movies Forbidden Planet (1956), La Jetée (1962), Star Wars (1977), Mad Max 2: The Road Warrior (1981), Blade Runner (1982), Brazil (1985), Batman (1989), Ghost in the Shell (1995), and The City of Lost Children (1995), which played on an almost continuous loop in the artists' office. Frank Miller's and Geoff Darrow's work on Hard Boiled and Big Guy and Rusty, the Boy Robot[6][7][8] Urban and suburban U.S. of the 1940s and 1950s also inspired some of the artists, including vehicle design, signage, architecture, and art.[9]"

    https://fallout.gamepedia.com/Fallout_setting#Aesthetics

    You are wrong. Have you talked to ZAX, SkyNet, ACE? All AIs recognize the fact that the War occurred and they are not "flailing remains of the old world, infinitely stuck in their programming and design."

    That and I'd like a source for that claim, please. Preferably from a developer of the originals.

    Grimdark!

    Or not. I'm not sure what Fallout you've played, but it was never about the last remains of a species trying to come to terms that the world that was destroyed by greed and power abuse. Humanity survived the war and was rebuilding. The original Fallout was set in SoCal, around what's basically the Venice of the Sands. The next Fallout featured a vast post-nuclear democratic state vying for control over NorCal, fighting against two other wasteland powers, with the core theme being politics, not people being the last remnants of the species and agonizing over it.

    It was never focused on the nuclear war. The scorching of the earth created a backdrop, but it was filled with people having present problems, with present issues occupying their minds. Most importantly, it was a setting of hope, not despair, from the very first village you find. Shady Sands had a stable agriculture, society where people looked after each other, a respected leader, and its only real problems came from radscorpions and raiders.

    I mean, look at the arc words. Not "death is eternal" or "delaying the inevitable", but "war, war never changes." Human conflict is the driving force.

    Sunny? Friendly? In what way?

    You miss a key point: After the experiences with the CPG, the Institute abandoned the unreasonable surface and focused on themselves, on ensuring their survival, on them as humanity.

    And they do think they have complete control. That's the point you're also missing: They are human beings and they are fallible. They believe they have total control over their synths, because... For the most part they do. It's never made clear if the third gens are humans or sophisticated robots, because that's what allows you to make a value judgement and choose, based on what you believe.

    To the Institute, a rogue synth is a malfunctioning robot. To the Railroad, a sentient being in need of help. To the Commonwealth, an infiltrator. To the Brotherhood, an expression of man's hubris, playing with forces they can't control.

    And you choose your own approach.

    (also, no, they aren't snatching people up top to take it over; they infiltrate settlements with specific purposes in mind, like McDonough in Diamond City, to provide surveillance over the largest city in the region, or in smaller settlements to field-test new inventions, like modified seeds).

    And Fallout 1 has a magical virus turning people into giant super mutants! SCIENCE! was always a part of the setting and teleportation was already used in Old World Blues, so it's not exactly unprecedented.

    I don't agree it's a retread of Fallout 1, and that should be obvious. The Brotherhood is countering the Institute not because it's like super mutants, but because it's playing with fire (in their opinion), it's already abusing the Commonwealth, and committed an act of war against it.

    It's not a primer, it's the poster taunting me that he just managed a "sick burn" with his post. Which, in all honesty, is pretty much an insult. How droll, to quote the Lou.

    And yes, I am inflammatory and abrasive. I also try my best to provide a detailed explanation for everything I write, along with sources, which requires a non-trivial amount of time. And what do I get for the effort? Mr "Sick Burn", thinking he's clever because he fails at Reading Comprehension 101.

    When people aren't level-headed, they get what they deserve.

    It's currently at... Let me check... Oh, right, zero-fucking-percent. You're putting effort into your posts, you are a generally level-headed guy, and you can back up your post with an actual rationale. I respect that.

    (I don't respect people arguing from a position of near-total ignorance of the subject matter, like Jorgo or Mr Sick Burnnnn, given that they argue not with the game or its writing, but straw men of their own making)
     
  18. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    So a guy whose absent 90% of the time thinks he can lord over us by threatening members and reply banning threads?

    How 'bout you leave the actual moderating to staff members who actually bother to spend time here like Hassknecht and SuAside instead of ignoring this forum and your admin duties the vast majority of the time only bothering to get involved with your admin duties when you are personally upset by a comment or thread title?
    So you are willing to give Bethesda the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they intended to write something a certain way, yet when it benefits your arguement, you deny the benefit of the doubt to Black Isle studios?

    Surely they could IDK manafacture a few sets of spare parts somewhere that Mr Handies could pick from and repair themselves with. Is it really too much of a hassle to make a few extra chunks of metal parts so that you don't have robots constantly going rogue, and need to dedicate an entire department to

    This really isn't hard to understand. Put spare parts in reach of a handy, if it needs them it will repair itself. But of course, you only give the benefit of the doubt and assume it makes sense when it's Bethesda. When it's Black Isles or the people who defined Fallout your Bethesda boner makes you know how stupid they really are.
    The Fallout wiki seems to disagree with you:

    "As a result of the synth escapes, the Institute founded the Synth Retention Bureau, or S.R.B., a branch of the Institute dedicated solely to the recovery and rehabilitation of escaped synths."
    http://fallout.gamepedia.com/wiki/Synth_Retention_Bureau

    So either the wiki is wrong, in which case a site you are an admin in can't get basic information right, or you are wrong.
    Why would you waste an entire department tracking down rogue robots, when you could use robots that don't go rogue?

    They need the entire SRB to maintain Synths. With Mr Handies, they could probably just assign a small permanent team from the robotics department. I fail to see how they need less upkeep for Synths then they do Mr Handies.

    I fail to see how dedicating an entire research department to lost property is far more convinient then using outdated but far more reliable, far less likely to literally rebel(Which BTW the Railroad ending involves. If you did your research and played the game you'd realise that the Railroad literally gets Synths to rebel against them. So if they are so cautious of the surface uniting, why are they too blind to see the threat in there own base) robots?

    "Self-Fixing", I mean it's literally mentioned in-lore that Mr Handies have self-repair protocols, but ok, completely ignore that because it suits your needs.
    My point is, if the Institute actually put effort in to making something useful, they would have been able to make a seperate fuel source alltoghether rather than relying on pre-war tech.

    Also, if they need the reactor to run before the Brotherhood jump in, maybe they could have actually put effort in to making a good power source instead of leaving it until it's absolutely necessary.

    The biofuel was just an example of how the Shi have there own fuel source and don't need to go digging around pre-war ruins for electricity, yet are supposedly less advanced than the Institute.
    I'm sorry, where is my bias showing?

    I read what's put in front of me, and I assume the writing is as clever as what is written on the page.

    I do this for Bethesda, and I do this to Obsidian.

    How about you stop screeching "BIAS!" and explain where the bias is, or is offering proof of bias slightly above your intelligence level? Because whenever you scream "BIAS!, NO!, HE INSULTED THE HOLY BETHESDA SO HE MUST HAVE IRRATIONAL HATRED AND BIAS!" I laugh at how unintelligent and assuming you sound.

    I know you are an intelligent guy really, but whenever you scream "BIAS, IRRATIONAL HATRED!", it becomes obvious that while bright in some areas, you are an imbecile and asshole in others.
    "The Institute cannot survive without leadership. The Directorate must continue to govern with the best interests of all in mind. To that end, I am naming my father as my successor."
    http://fallout.gamepedia.com/wiki/Shaun.txt

    Please point out where he says "My father will take over as director, so long as he defeats the Railroad". He doesn't. if you had contact with the Railroad in the past he does call your loyalty in to question, he does ask you to do certain jobs as future director, he does inform you the destruction of the Railroad is vital for the Institute, but he never informs you or any other of the members of the Institute, that your succession is dependent on the railroad being destroyed.

    So, if you don't destroy the Railroad, the other members of the Institute aren't going to turn around and go "Well Father did outright name you as his successor, but this thing he asked you to do in private, and never made a condition of you becoming a director didn't happen, so fuck you you ain't gonna lead us". That was never a condition of your succession, either from what Father told the Railroad or from what he told you.

    There is literally no reason why you can't just wait for Father's death, succeed, and release all the Synths leaving the Railroad alive.
    I have played it. I just played it as much as I could bare since it's a completely unentertaining mass effect bootlegg with nothing to make it memorable.

    I do try and watch let's plays and read up on things to try and keep my knowledge of the many flaws(Many of which you haven't actually responded too, but keep assuming you are right) up to date, but honestly, you have a natural advantage here. Someone who likes a game can defend it far better than someone who dislikes it can criticise it, purely because we are far more knowledgable of things we love then things we hate.

    If you stop assuming I'm ignorant, and start realising that I do try and look this up, and respond to points, it's just that you have the advantage of insane amounts of wasted hours, then maybe we could get along much better.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
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  19. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Since the first two generations were robots (just really impractical ones) and since this apparently carried on for a long time until the 3rd generation of bio-synths came along, they had to have a need for a lot of maintenance. Fragile electronics, lots of stuff that is ultimately completely useless and overengineered for the tasks at hand.

    Yeah, but instead of debugging for pathfinding they need an entire section of the Institute and specially created synths just to keep them at bay.
    But while a synth is a "universal robot", it is absolutely overengineered for most tasks required of it. Do you need a bipedal machine to do basic maintenance, serve drinks, or do anything besides sweeping the uncanny valley? No. It's just hard to pull off and brings no benefits. They can use human tools, so what? You don't need a perfect replica of a human to do that.
    Also, they don't need food or sleep or anything, and they don't need charging or nothing. So they're basically perpetuum mobiles. Might have been much easier to put their energy source into something more practical. Like a shorter, quadrupedal or tracked robot with waldo arms. Helluva lot cheaper, sturdier, and can to everything without the risk of fleeing and hiding easily.

    I said that machines in Fallout don't appear to need that much maintenance to begin with, and that maintenance (automated or not) has never been an issue. So maintenance overhead is not the most pressing issue for the Institute.

    Indeed. Although the way it is is a conflict introduced much more arbitrarily, and easier avoided.

    Thing is that the step from "machine" to "full on bio clone" is a huge one, and it appeared to have come suddenly and somewhat arbitrarily.

    None is necessarily fascist. Everything happened in a (corrupt) democracy during the biggest crisis and war they ever had.

    And yet, somehow, synths are easier to handle than robots because, god forbid, they could have bugs in their pathfinding? Dunno, synths fleeing seems to be a pretty big bug in their pathfinding.
    And since the Institute keeps a whole section busy with tracking down the escapees, I do think they consider it a bit of an issue. Might have been easier to just keep a few more programmers and engineers at hand to keep the facility going rather than having to set up a heavily armed section of hunters to keep your drones from getting out.
    And that's not to mention how stupid it is to give the synths the possibility for such intelligence.

    Sentient or not, they do appear to pass the Turing test with flying colours. Since synths can apparently, after a mindwipe, chose their own fate and don't even know they're synths, I think they can be said to be pretty much sentient. Robots, well, that's a different thing, although Codsworth's lamentation how boring and terrible the past 200 years have been make a pretty convincing impression. Why even do that to begin with if it's a machine that can't get past its programming? Why stroll around and try to find other people? I think Codsworth was deliberately designed to blur the lines by Bethesda, although I do suspect that they just went with the "ancient machine achieves self-awareness after aeons of boredom" trope...
     
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  20. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Yeah, pretty much, given that nobody actually enforces some sort of standard to turn this into something more than just sad, incessant complaining that things were better when women knew their place and you could buy Coca-Cola for five cents.

    Nope.

    I'm not going to cuddle you or anyone else. If you can't stand the feeling that someone disagrees with you or expects you to demonstrate a modicum of sense in discussion, there's the door.

    Except I don't. Interplay and Black Isle always made it clear that robots need an extensive support network and weren't a particularly reliable technology. Have you missed the charging and repair stations spread in every military facility? The bulky designs that used purpose-built tools and attachments, with the most advanced Robobrains starting to incorporate human-like manipulators and human brains?

    The games make it clear that robots require an extensive support network in place. Humans don't and neither do synths based on the human shape.

    So now you're dedicating resources and time to not only making robots, but also manufacturing spare parts for them, stocking and inventory, ensuring the robots know what to do with them, keep constant watch that they don't develop crippling bugs...

    How is that superior to a highly intelligent, self-healing machine that requires little to no oversight?

    That's right.

    It isn't, except in your own imagination.

    Nukapedia is wrong. Here's an actual link:

    http://fallout.gamepedia.com/wiki/Synth_Retention_Bureau

    The origins of the SRB aren't really stated and the breadth of its operations exceeds just "finding escaped synths." For one, escaped third gens aren't a major problem in the long term (Ayo's pissed that other departments neglect the SRB, not taking them seriously, and that's the likely source). Railroad statistics found in the HQ say as much.

    However, the SRB also conducts around the clock surveillance of the Commonwealth through Watchers and infiltrators planted in key cities (McDonough being a prime example), recovers Gen1 and Gen2 synths to prevent technology from falling into the hands of people who can reverse engineer it and use them against it.

    "Probably." In other words, you have no idea what it takes to maintain a fleet of robots (despite the fact previous games make it patently clear it requires quite a bit of effort and supply).

    I've explained it several times over: Synths don't require special parts. They don't require debugging (and as seen in the games, Handies aren't the most reliable of technologies, like the one in Fo1 that happily explodes trying to enter the control room to finish a cleaning job). They don't need special charging or repair stations. They don't need special nuclear fuel to operate.

    Your Handy fetish is interesting. Is it the hands?

    You do realize that said rebellion is orchestrated with the aid of a traitor in the Institute? A traitor who you can expose and doom the Railroad's plans if you side with the Institute... Or frame Ayo and let him continue his work.

    At this point you're whining that the Institute isn't all-powerful and all-seeing, except if it was, you'd be whining that it was a Mary Sue. Your impossible, self-contradictory standards are impossible to meet - and actually would require you to bash FNV as well, given Frumentarius Picus at McCarran or Feargus at the Congress Hall, both of whom are traitors giving the enemies of the NCR a major advantage.

    And yes, the Institute is blind to the growing threat inside, being focused on the outside threats like the Railroad and the Brotherhood. That's a common theme in human history.

    But, I guess, human history is bad writing.

    And require nuclear fuel, spare parts, human oversight to debug their coding, separate facilities for charging and major repair... Yeah, you're not helping your argument.

    Why would they devote time and effort to making a separate, completely new fuel source, when the solution is sitting there and staring them in the face? The Institute was making major headway on Phase Three and activating the reactor. The Brotherhood's appearance merely accelerated the time table.

    Again, you're demanding the Institute be a Mary Sue and have perfect solutions for everything, perhaps so that you would be able to bitch that it's a Mary Sue.

    And it's a bad example, because diesel-powered engines are far cry from what the Institute needs. It has power needs that outstrip the Shi's by several magnitudes and the fusion reactor was the long-term solution that would provide said energy.


    That's cute. Can't take the heat, I take it?

    Nope. You constantly bash Bethesda based on some kind of irrational prejudice, failing to actually listen to the game and approach it in the same way you do FNV. You repeatedly whine about plot devices that are also used in preceding titles.

    Except when the Director arrives at the conclusion that the Railroad needs to be eliminated while you are not the Director. You are the designated successor with no vote in the matter. Unless you eliminate the Railroad, you will never be the Director.

    It's quite simple. You do that or you're gone.

    Shaun: "For the Institute's position in the Commonwealth to be secure, the Railroad must be eliminated. Completely. As our primary above-ground operative, and someone who has had previous contact with the Railroad, you are in the best position to carry this out. So what I'm getting at, simply, is this. Are you willing to destroy them?"

    Survivor: "I won't do that to them."

    Shaun: "Even knowing that they would kill all of us, you included, to get what they want? I'm sorry, but consider this an order. It must be done. I'll expect a report when they've been eliminated."

    If you refuse the order, you will be banished from the Institute.

    So you don't know the game and its contents, yet argue as if you did. Wonderful.

    I don't assume you're ignorant. I see your ignorance all over the fucking place, when I have to point out things that are obvious to anyone who played the game and listened to it. It doesn't take four hundred hours, it just takes a little good will, and a bit of attention.

    You have given it neither. You hate it, by your own admission, and consistently fail to argue your position effectively due to a combination of said hatred and ignorance.

    If you hate it so much, the most effective way of dealing with it is to just let go.