Like owning land?

Based on your rather extreme view, no highways, railroads, or just about anything could get built.

Pshaw, let's look at your statement in context.

So where the government takes away it also gives.

This comes across as saying that the government has seized property for the sake of the greater good, and that it is justified in the good that it creates. It doesn't make any mention of just compensation, you simply justified a taking because of what the government did with the land, not what it gave to the property owners.

In the case of the takings clause, the government justifies a taking by providing just compensation to the owner. It is the government that is taking the land, and it takes it for the sake of public services such as highways and what have you. This interpretation of the law arises out of the non-specific nature of the 5th Ammendment itself. The argument is that by re-zoning the land for private development, the City is creating a public service. The Supreme Court bought it, I don't. They already have specific plans for this land, and unless the new businesses are owned and operated by the City, it doesn't translate to the traditional interpretation of Public Service.

Let me see, shall we deny jobs and better quality of life for the people of New London so that you can protect "grandma's house" for another generation (or otherwise squeeze the government for a few bucks)?

If that's what I want to do, then yes. That is my entitlement as the rightful owner. If I change my mind and decide to sell it to a prospective buyer, then so be it, but unless the city intends to build a road or a hospital on my land, you'll have a hard time convincing me that they have the right to excercize Eminent Domain.

People can relocate.

Now who's heartless? :)

"Sacrifical Lamb?" Come on. Just compensation means they get what their value is. Let's go back to those num ber 7 families owning 15 houses, out of 90 families in a neighborhood in exchange for a project that will create new jobs, parks, etc, and which will help clean up New Lond. I have a hard time crying for these folks just because they won't get more money for grandmothers house.

I don't give a fuck why these people want to hold on to their land, but I'm perfectly willing to protect their ability to do with it as they see fit. If that includes holding out for a better price, then so be it. I don't believe government should have the power to take land from private owners for the sake of different private owners, and nothing you can say can convince me otherwise.

But thank the republicans for that one.

*gag* As if Leftist policies have nothing to do with authoritarianism. You should be better than this, Welsh. I figured you of all people would notice the empty Republicrat dichotomy.

Take a year of Con Law and then you will really see what there is to be scared of. You'll be impressed in how few liberties we really have.

As a cynic, I can't say I'd be surprised.
 
Wooz said:
Now, seriously, what civil rights do you poor Americans have left? Censorship is at its best, protesters are regularly brutalized by the police, the Miranda Rights are no longer existant, the PATRIOT acts empower the state to a Big Brother-esque degree, and now, private property has been, in Brady's words, flung out the window.

They have Megan's Law! The right to be persecuted all your life increasing the chance of recidivism!

Wooz said:
What's next, outlawing everything except the Republican and Democrat parties?

What would that change?

...

Oh, wait, I see

Bradylama said:
When the revolution comes, though, I doubt they'll be in short supply.

The American population as a whole strikes me as far too disinterested to do anything about...anything.

welsh said:
People can relocate.

Relocate! I wonder why this article was reminding me of Nazi Germany, now I know.

It always comes back to the nazis.
 
Coming from a Croatian family that was driven out of its home fifteen years ago not by bulldozers, but by artillery and mortars, I find this decision unbelievably insensible and barbaric. After an invading foreign army turned our apartment into cinders in 1991, it took my mother another decade of unspeakably hard labor before we could afford to have our own home again. When we at last bought the apartment we currently reside in, it was nothing but a faceless husk with white walls. It took my mother months of meticulous planning and browsing through magazines before she picked out finest Italian furniture and turned this dump into, without slightest exaggeration, the most beautiful residence in the city.

Now, if some arrogant city official was to come here and tell us we have X weeks to move out of the place it took my mother ten years to earn money for and another year to furnish in style that she deemed perfect just because greedy corporate slugs want to erect a shopping mall, I would repeatedly thrust my knife into his overweight body and urinate on his bleeding, crumpled corpse afterwards without feeling slightest bit of remorse.

Why? When an invading army destroys my home and then my state commits the same heinous crime fifteen years later, then the state is equally barbaric as the invading army and its officials are therefore deserving to be treated in the same manner - with the sharp end of my knife. Simply put, a state that forcingly evicts its own citizens out of homes they legitimately own is criminal, barbaric, murderous, terrorist and enemy. To rebel and revolt against such state, to disobey its laws, to inflict psychological and physical harm upon its officials and property is not only justified, it is a *duty* of every citizen that still possesses a semblance of awareness of his own civil rights.

Regarding the specific American case - any American who doesn't oppose this blatant example of state-condoned terror will forever be marked in my book as a weak conformist, undeserving of the civil rights and liberties granted unto them.
 
" But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

:lol: :roll: :(
 
A long time ago, my grandfather owned a piece of farm land near Geneva, Switzerland. He didn't want to sell it, but was forced to by the government. Where my grandfather grew crops, the government created a series of swimming pool. I went there as a child and there were hundreds of kids playing in that pool. Some years later, the government sold that pool area for private apartments.

That's eminent domain- a taking. It happens all over the place.
The real questions were-
(1) where the owners justly compensated?
(2) did the government have justification?

Here the parties are justly compensated. The question is justification.

@Kharn- Ah the Nazis- you do realize by raising that you lose this argument.

The Government of the Netherlands has never used eminent domain to seize property?

@Ratty- An invading army is a lot different than a government sale. In this case

(1) the sellers were offered fair market value for their homes. Better yet, because of the increase in value of their property. These folks would do well.

(2) Did the government act appropriately? This is where it gets a bit shaky because it asks if the political processes work. These folks had the right to petition their local governments, the city, they had the right to petition their elected representatives. THey could avail themselves of legal power. Furthermore, there is a question of state law- Conn state law gives the government this power.

Thus the question that the federal court has to deal with is limited?

@Bradylama-

Again, the question here again (1) Just compensation
and (2) Public purpose?

As for Just Compensation- these folks are getting paid. Most of their neighbors have taken the deal, these folks want to hold out.

Is the government limited to just building bridges or roads or can it take a more expansive view of public purpose?

From the court's opinion-
While the opinion by Justice John Paul Stevens said that a local government could not take homeowners' property "simply to confer a private benefit on a particular private party," the New London. Conn., project involved in this case was "a carefully considered development plan." While the resulting project would not be open for use by the general public, the Court said, there is no literal requirement of that outcome.

Reading the constitutional phrase "public use" in an expansive way, the Court majority declared: "For more than a century, our public use jurisprudence has wisely eschewed rigid formulas and intrusive scrutiny in favor of affording legislatures broad latitude in determining what public needs justify the use of the takigs power."

The Court commented: "Those who govern the city [of New London] were not confronted with the need to remove blight..., but their determination that the area was sufficiently distressed to justify a program of economic rejuvenation is entitled to our deference....Clearly, there is no basis for exempting economic development from our traditionally broad understanding of public purpose."

The irony of this-
Libertarians & Republicans. want less federal oversight and less government control over the states. This matter was permissable under Conn state law which takes a broader view of the Public Use aspect of the Takings Clause. (Other states that take the broad view- Kansas, New York, California, Texas, Penn, North Carolina, Mass, Lousiana, New Jersey, Minn. Maine, Tenn and Iowa ). Interestingly- even the narrow states accept that takings are ok to clear slums- maybe because poor folks get less rights than middle class? And maybe that's the problem in New London- these are middle class homeowners with a view of the water.

Libertarians and Republicans want less government involvement in economics. Here the New London government seems to be trusting to the market and market participants to make the best choices. Libertarians and Republicans believe that market 'knows best.'

Republicans and Libertarians want the state to take a step back for big business so that it can do what it has to do turn a profit. More Laissez Faire, more market mechanisms. (Afterall you said we should go back to 1900, remember?). And yet you are suprised if business can use its power to persuade a local political authority to act against the little guy. ANd now you are suprised when the idealism of Libertarians comes face to face with the reality of politics? Sorry, but it's a little late for "Oh that's not fair!"

So yes, I agree O'Connor that the danger of eminent domain is greater now, and I think it is dangerous when powerful companies can persuade weak local governments to carry out policies of eminent domain against individuals. I would also like to see a better showing of pubic use. But that's a question of weak political power vs. strong corporations- a consequence of what you Libertarians and Republicans have been trying to get for the last couple of decades.

Yes, we've seen a decline in civil rights in the US. But that's no surprise when (once W is finished) we'll have had republicans in office for 20 of the last 28 years.

But is New London in need of economic revitalization?

Let's see...double digit unemployment, renovation of a "brownfield" site.
The redevelopment program at issue in yesterday's case -- the plan of the Connecticut city of New London to turn 90 acres of waterfront land into office buildings, upscale housing, a marina and other facilities near a $300 million research center being built by pharmaceuticals giant Pfizer -- was also expected to generate hundreds of jobs and, city officials say, $680,000 in property tax revenue.

New London, with a population of about 24,000, is reeling from the 1996 closing of the Naval Undersea Warfare Center, which had employed more than 1,500 people.

In exchange for Ms. Kelo's renovated house for which she's getting paid a decent price. It's sad that she's losing some sentimental value but given a choice between that an replacing 2000 jobs- I go with the jobs. (Though I have to admit- forcing her to pay rent to New London Development Corp was bogus and bad PR)

Nice guy? What me. Remember, I used to be one of these guys-
lawyers.gif


And may yet once more return to the Dark Side.
 
Regardless of whether the seizing of the homes and their sale will help or not is irrelevant. If your starving does that justify stealing bread?

Sure they'll be reimbursed, but who's to say the family had such involvement locally that they wanted generations to live there?

Most importantly to me regardless of the re-imbursement is the idea of freedom being trumped by someone simply offering money to build something bigger there. Who's to say someone couldnt offer to build a mall, buy up lots of land, send the people living there to spread out by the winds, then simply reneg the offer to construct the mall and hold the land 'til it becomes more valuable? What if the US government wants the land...that just happens to be located where the homes of "unpatriotic" dissidents live? Now there's a good way to teach 'em a lesson. Take their land then just sell it back to someone more...I dont know, Republican?

I've always felt that freedom of property and ownership sort of pre-dated freedom of speech, religion, etc. I mean sure you could speak your mind without owning property, but you'd have to do it in public. Who's to say the "public" doesnt like your opinion and hangs you? Thats why you need your own land to practice your opinions and beliefs on as opposed to depending on some mob mentality to accept or disavow what you think.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
The_Vault_Dweller said:
I've always felt that freedom of property and ownership sort of pre-dated freedom of speech, religion, etc. I mean sure you could speak your mind without owning property, but you'd have to do it in public. Who's to say the "public" doesnt like your opinion and hangs you? Thats why you need your own land to practice your opinions and beliefs on as opposed to depending on some mob mentality to accept or disavow what you think.

I think there is truth in this. It's why Israel was needed, for one thing.
 
Republicans and Libertarians want the state to take a step back for big business so that it can do what it has to do turn a profit. More Laissez Faire, more market mechanisms. (Afterall you said we should go back to 1900, remember?). And yet you are suprised if business can use its power to persuade a local political authority to act against the little guy. ANd now you are suprised when the idealism of Libertarians comes face to face with the reality of politics? Sorry, but it's a little late for "Oh that's not fair!"

What? I'm not surprised by this decision, I'm outraged. Are you even reading what I'm saying?

I haven't even brought up the issue of Just Compensation, yet you keep on bringing it up.

Libertarians and Republicans want less government involvement in economics. Here the New London government seems to be trusting to the market and market participants to make the best choices. Libertarians and Republicans believe that market 'knows best.'

Aren't the actions of the New London government a direct contradiction to less government involvement in economics? What are you arguing here?

But that's a question of weak political power vs. strong corporations- a consequence of what you Libertarians and Republicans have been trying to get for the last couple of decades.

Which is precisely why the Conservative judges are all in the minority on this decision. What the fuck are you talking about?

Yes, we've seen a decline in civil rights in the US. But that's no surprise when (once W is finished) we'll have had republicans in office for 20 of the last 28 years.

Yeah, sure, pin this trend on Conservative leadership for a trend that got it's start from Progressivism. Nigga please.
 
The_Vault_Dweller said:
Regardless of whether the seizing of the homes and their sale will help or not is irrelevant. If your starving does that justify stealing bread?

But what if you own the bread, and someone wants to buy it from you, but you refuse to sell because you might get a better price?

What if by selling that bread you are feeding your neighbors who are going hungry, and those that are paying are giving you fair market value?

Sure they'll be reimbursed, but who's to say the family had such involvement locally that they wanted generations to live there?

I think at least one of the families owns a house that has been handed down in the family. New London is an old whaling town, and like a lot of towns in the area, has a history.

But whether the people who owned the town had the right to vote on this decision, to petition the state, to voice their grievances- that does matter.

Could they politically protect their property? I think that's a fair issue. Is this a case of a 10,000 pound gorrilla stomping on the little guy? If so, that is a problem.

But in terms of what the Court could do- it was challenged between taking a more broad view of public use or a more restricted view of public use, an issue that the states are split on. In deference to the other branches of government and the power of local legistatures to determine their own interests, it abided by Conn's broad view. Perhaps the court could have taken a broader view, but that's not consistent with the times or precedent.

Most importantly to me regardless of the re-imbursement is the idea of freedom being trumped by someone simply offering money to build something bigger there. Who's to say someone couldnt offer to build a mall, buy up lots of land, send the people living there to spread out by the winds, then simply reneg the offer to construct the mall and hold the land 'til it becomes more valuable? What if the US government wants the land...that just happens to be located where the homes of "unpatriotic" dissidents live? Now there's a good way to teach 'em a lesson. Take their land then just sell it back to someone more...I dont know, Republican?

Well, if the government went for the "unpatriotic" one might argue equal protection. That didn't appear to be an issue here. Is it possible- yes. Depends on what party is controlling government- and thus the rub. Is such a broad understanding of public use justified? To determine that, we should look to the particulars of the case.

As for the "buy for a mall and then speculate" - that doesn't seem to be the case here. The Pfizer project is a big one, but there seems to be a number of projects in the works, and that means new jobs that need to be replaced since the military base got closed.

Could it happen hypothetically- yes. But then you'd be running up against public use. How broad should public use be determined? SHoudl it be determined by the courts or by state and local governments?

I've always felt that freedom of property and ownership sort of pre-dated freedom of speech, religion, etc. I mean sure you could speak your mind without owning property, but you'd have to do it in public. Who's to say the "public" doesnt like your opinion and hangs you? Thats why you need your own land to practice your opinions and beliefs on as opposed to depending on some mob mentality to accept or disavow what you think.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller

In fact freedom of poperty is often seen as necessary for democracy (and again, a reason why the Takings Power is in the Fifth Amendment). With property comes power. Douglas North uses property as key to the creation of democracy.

But with the courts it is always down to a couple of problems- One is the power of the individual vs the power of society, and secondly is the court's own will to limit it's oversight into the workings of other parts of government. Remember, the Court is the final arbiter, but it takes its review very narrowly least it overstep its powers. Here the court is holding back in lieu of deference to the local and state levels.

So yes, while I think the Court probably did right here by deferring to the local and state governments and holding on to Conn's broad view of "public use." The question of whether the political processes did right is another issue.
 
What is it that you're saying here, Welsh? You say that the government is perfectly justified for seizing land for the sake of job creation, yet you take issue with the fact that they're doing this... for private developers? The people that are creating these jobs?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're aware of the hideous amount of corruption this decision invites, then why the Hell are you supporting it? Or not supporting it?

What are you saying?
 
Kharn said:
It always comes back to the nazis.

Hmm...it's funny that people seem to equate conservatives to nazis around here but all the judges who went against the ruling are the more conservative judges on the Supreme Court.
 
welsh said:
What if by selling that bread you are feeding your neighbors who are going hungry, and those that are paying are giving you fair market value?

Fair market value is exactly what the seller asks and the buyer is willing to pay. Forcing someone to sell at a "fair" price violates the definition of a free market.

«ºTone Caponeº» said:
Hmm...it's funny that people seem to equate conservatives to nazis around here but all the judges who went against the ruling are the more conservative judges on the Supreme Court.

Probably has something to do with the common misconception of nazism as "extreme right".
 
Double post- sorry.

@ Bradylama-
You who is not reading what the court has decided or anything else discussed above.

(1) The court is upholding Conn's view of Public Use.
(2) The local government has deferred much of the actual management of the condemned land to market participants. It actually is staying out of the management of the land.
(3) Economic power = political power which is the natural consequence of less government regulation and more power of companies, who can translate that power to political influence.

This is what the republicans and the libertarians want- less government control and more economic power centered in a few big companies.

THe consequence- very powerful companies having more influence (an unintended consequence of more economic power to companies?) When you have strong companies and weak political organization you get corruption and cronyism. That's the consequence of what Libertarians and Republicans have been preaching for awhile.

Now you get it at the expense of poor Ms. Kelo's water view, refurbished house. But really, what did you expect when you have companies with little regulation? Didn't you think they could push politics in the way they want? I mean that's like saying the military industrial complex didn't push the Iraq war because it didn't want to make a buck? Yeah.

The question for you is not whether the court screwed this up, but what happened politically- or why the corporations were able to push their agenda down the throat of a city in economic trouble. Double digit unemployment, serious economic down-turn, and the loss of 1,500 jobs in a town of 25K, that's painful. New London's political authority is weak and in distress.

Free Market, Laissez Faire, market domination by a few powerful industries = political influence. And that's the problem for you Libertarians- you can't see past your nose.

You want individual rights and you want the state out of your affairs, but you don't realize that it's the state that protects your individual rights. If you weaken the state, you weaken your rights.

As for the role back on civil rights- Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2, a conservative court, a largely republican federal judiciary = a republican agenda. If you doubt it, check the decisions of the Rehnquist court and see where your civil liberties are going.

Here at least the court is upholding the Conn's right to choose because it's trying to abide by legal precedent. The irony is that the conservative judges are asking for a view of the public use doctrine that is accepted only in some cases, and even there it can be used against the poor.

OK, more here, since people have responded.

@ Per- fair market value does not include increased value because people are acting as hold-outs. A similar example might be the sellers who jump the price of bottled water after a hurricane has knocked out the water lines. Fair market value was an appraisal value of the property. If the hold-outs want more, they try to delay the sale and thus jump the price. The notion of the hold-out means that the government need not pay a higher price because some folks feel like gauging the government for a better deal than their neighbors.

@ Tone- Bringing up Nazis is a bad idea- better to discuss Facists- which historically was corporatist.

@ Bradylama- The job of the court is to make a decision on law, not on policy. Policy and legislation is left to the state. The question here is whether the Conn court decided correctly on its interpretation of "Public Use"- a view shared by quite a few states (both republican and democrat). More than you might like, perhaps, but a decision decided by quite a few states.

Where the policy was corrupt or wrong- that has more to do with the political bargaining that went on. Again, a weak town that is in economic trouble with little promise in its future gets a good deal from a big corporation that means it can replace the jobs that it lost. Replacing those jobs over the interests of 7 families that want a better deal for their land? A better question might be why the town is in such dire straits because of a military base closing.
 
(1) The court is upholding Conn's view of Public Use.

Which I believe should be unconstitutional.

(2) The local government has deferred much of the actual management of the condemned land to market participants. It actually is staying out of the management of the land.

It is staying out of Land Management, but not exchange management. This is essentially what this case is about, a forced exchange between land owners and developers, coerced by the power of the New London government. You can hide behind the Legal speak that the State is purchasing this land, but you know who it's going to end up with.

(3) Economic power = political power which is the natural consequence of less government regulation and more power of companies, who can translate that power to political influence.

Yeah? You mean money can be used to further one's political interests? HOLY SHIT! STOP THE PRESSES!

THe consequence- very powerful companies having more influence (an unintended consequence of more economic power to companies?) When you have strong companies and weak political organization you get corruption and cronyism. That's the consequence of what Libertarians and Republicans have been preaching for awhile.
Libertarianism has never been about the weakening of government but the reduction of it's range of powers. It's a matter of priorities, not encouraged anarchy.

Now you get it at the expense of poor Ms. Kelo's water view, refurbished house. But really, what did you expect when you have companies with little regulation? Didn't you think they could push politics in the way they want? I mean that's like saying the military industrial complex didn't push the Iraq war because it didn't want to make a buck? Yeah.

This kind of decision shouldn't have even been involved in the political realm. Ms. Kelo's land is Ms. Kelo's land, period. The government has no right to take her land so that private developers don't have to pay the price she requests. If that means that the government can't even excercize Eminent Domain period, then so be it.

You want individual rights and you want the state out of your affairs, but you don't realize that it's the state that protects your individual rights. If you weaken the state, you weaken your rights.

Issues over such things as Income Tax and Prohibition are matters of principle. There are other, non-unconstitutional ways for the government to acquire the funding necessary to protect our rights.

Again, the reduction of powers do not equate to a weakened State. Far from it.

As for the role back on civil rights- Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2, a conservative court, a largely republican federal judiciary = a republican agenda. If you doubt it, check the decisions of the Rehnquist court and see where your civil liberties are going.

So you deny then, that they were able to achieve these injustices due to the road paved for them by Early 20th Century Populists and Progressives?

The Vietnam War violated several tenents of International Warfare, but Johnson was a Democrat, so we'll just act like war crimes are a wholly Republican invention. =/

Your rhetoric is tired.
 
welsh said:
Fair market value was an appraisal value of the property. If the hold-outs want more, they try to delay the sale and thus jump the price. The notion of the hold-out means that the government need not pay a higher price because some folks feel like gauging the government for a better deal than their neighbors.

My misunderstanding, I thought you were speaking generally. (In the hurricane case, though, the water obviously does become more valuable. That people would see it as immoral for stores to profit from this is another matter.)

Incidentally, over here there was a cluster of houses that became wedged between industrial plots and a motorway and were facing dropping real estate values. The residents demanded that the city council buy them out, which they did.
 
"The reduction of powers does not equate a weakened state"?

Reduced power does not equal weakness.... hmmmmm

If you are finding my rhetoric tired, I suggest you reappraise your logic.

As for the expansion and contraction of rights- one sees the expansion of civil rights under Warren, then rolled back under Burger and Rehnquist.

When you mean the populists and the progressive- you suggest those who allowed unions to organize, monopolies to crumble, women to get fairer salaries, workers to get safe working conditions.... Oh such a web of horrors were created!

Under the Federal Constitution states can either give what the feds give or they can give more protection. If states want to give more protection then the Federal government does under the fifth amendmnent- fine. Here the court need only follow what is consistent in its jurisprudence- since it has accepted a very broad view of public use (the Hawaii case was much broader) than it complies. Otherwise it would have overruled not only its precedents but also the law in a number of other states.

As for "finding another way?" That's not the role of the court. Rather the court is left to decide whether what the local body did was constitutional or not based on its prior interpretation of federal constitutional law.

Ms Kelo got fair market price for her house. She should have profitted from the renovations she did and the increase in value she gets. That's a better deal than the 2,000 people without jobs that the alternative would have achieved based on your more restrictive view of what the law should be.
 
When you mean the populists and the progressive- you suggest those who allowed unions to organize, monopolies to crumble, women to get fairer salaries, workers to get safe working conditions.... Oh such a web of horrors were created!

Yes, by expanding the powers of government for the sake of "Noble Institutions" they have effectively paved the way for tyranny. We've talked about this before.

As for "finding another way?" That's not the role of the court. Rather the court is left to decide whether what the local body did was constitutional or not based on its prior interpretation of federal constitutional law.

I never said it was the role of the court. In fact, I've never argued the legality of the court's decision. What I'm outraged about is that the Court's decision has effectively given all States the green light to toss Property Rights out the window.

But wait, the states that don't expand their interpretation of the 5th as Conneticut has would have to go through political processes to change the law.

No shit? As if these Captains of Industry could already bribe their way into political influence and government support. Oh wait, they can.

Perhaps this is why it's our duty as members of a Democratic society to find the sources of corruption in the system and uproot them wholly. Investigative Journalism? What's that?

Ms Kelo got fair market price for her house. She should have profitted from the renovations she did and the increase in value she gets. That's a better deal than the 2,000 people without jobs that the alternative would have achieved based on your more restrictive view of what the law should be.

A better deal, but not the right one. My opinion. My political opinion.
 
A better deal, but not the right one. My opinion. My political opinion.

Funny how it is easier to be a libertarian when you are white college student, living a middle or upper class life-style.
 
Like how it's easier to insist that others are forced to give a little of themselves when you're an ex-lawyer?

We could do this for a while. =/
 
welsh said:
"The reduction of powers does not equate a weakened state"?

Reduced power does not equal weakness.... hmmmmm

Yes, but if instead he meant "reduced responsibilities" then no; The excessive "responsibilities" of the government aactuallyweaken it because it looses focus. With fewer responsibilities, the government can increase it focus, and, perhaps, it's power.

As for the expansion and contraction of rights- one sees the expansion of civil rights under Warren, then rolled back under Burger and Rehnquist.

Bradylama said:
welsh said:
When you mean the populists and the progressive- you suggest those who allowed unions to organize, monopolies to crumble, women to get fairer salaries, workers to get safe working conditions.... Oh such a web of horrors were created!
Yes, by expanding the powers of government for the sake of "Noble Institutions" they have effectively paved the way for tyranny. We've talked about this before.

As some conservatives might call it: the Keynesian-"socialism" Doctrine, that the government must influence the economy through increased spending to boost demand. general, this seems to disagree with Smith's lazies-faire doctrine of leaving well enough alone, but what isn't being mentioned here is the very nature of the conservative backlash against it. "Libertarians", etc., argue that the diluted big government of Keynesian subsides and Progressive regulations is just waiting for a "Mussolini" to corrupt it, and it was suggested in at least one comlplaint to the second Roosevelt after his court-packing scheme.

But not all Republicans are conservatives, but reactionaries bent on a Mussolini-esque corruption of the now extendable tools of cesare. The real question is: who are these reactionaries, and what are they doing in power?

welsh said:
Under the Federal Constitution states can either give what the feds give or they can give more protection. If states want to give more protection then the Federal government does under the fifth amendmnent- fine. Here the court need only follow what is consistent in its jurisprudence- since it has accepted a very broad view of public use (the Hawaii case was much broader) than it complies. Otherwise it would have overruled not only its precedents but also the law in a number of other states.

That's another problem: the current Constitution is far too vauge to help safeguard against some present abuses of the government.
 
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