Mafia: boring popamole or brilliant driving sim?

[zkylon]

Because "extreme linearity" was a "feature" in Mafia 1? coz it sure bored the heck out of me with its vapid combination of an open world and extremely linear mission-gameplay.

You're completely right when you say Mafia's closer to Max Payne than it is to GTA, and for that reason saying the game's too linear is not an exactly a valid complaint. If the core gameplay is boring to you, that's fine, but having an empty open world can't be boring itself. At worst you can call it a waste to create a city with no interesting things to do, but nobody forces you to do anything but the missions, so i don't see in which way you can find the open world bothersome.

Many of us did enjoy the free roaming world because of how real and "in era" the world felt, with the slow cars and the speeding tickets. It's certainly not flawless but the atmosphere was spot on and like Mettle noted, it helped you get past the not-so-good bits (like the awful checkpoint system).

 

[Brother None]

having an empty open world can't be boring itself.

It can when the game forces you to drive to and from missions for no discernible reason. It's not added gameplay, it doesn't add anything in fact.

If I were reviewing Mafia I'd be sorely tempted to take it to task for that nonsense. It promises sandbox gameplay but then uses the open world purely for padding. That's just bad design.

I get that it has a cult following for whom this is "immersive" tho. If you want to be immersed in boredom, sure. If it works for you, cool. But can I say a reviewer is "wrong" when taking this "feature" to task? Hell no.

 

[zkylon]

It promises sandbox gameplay but then uses the open world purely for padding. That's just bad design.

This is completely true. But i do think the driving does add something to the atmosphere, balancing out with the action parts, showing more of what's it like being in the mob. I don't think it was boring, since i've always enjoyed semi-unrealistic driving and the characters would talk with each other, etc., but that's up to each any everyone's taste.

I can agree with "the game's misleading because it feels sandbox but plays linear" but i can't agree with simply "the game's too linear". While i usually don't like extremedly linear games, that's an argument on personal taste rather than game quality.

 

[Paul_cz]

I get that it has a cult following for whom this is "immersive" tho. If you want to be immersed in boredom, sure. If it works for you, cool. But can I say a reviewer is "wrong" when taking this "feature" to task? Hell no.

I wonder where is this elitist attitude coming from. "My taste is better than yours, FACT!"

 

[Brother None]

I wonder where is this elitist attitude coming from. "My taste is better than yours, FACT!"

Exactly. Why would anyone state the reviewer is "wrong" when taking parts of Mafia to task that are unappealing to many. It seems very absolutists. Cult following, as I said.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

What the hell? A thread on NMA where someone is badmouthing Mafia?

For superb try "shit". Getting some B-list actors from the Sopranos just so you can say "with voices from the Sopranos" does not a well-voiced game make.

Wat? By the standards of early 2000's era shooters Mafia had solid voice acting, and you know it.

I know this game has a cult following and Ratty is daft enough to call it "flawless"

As I recall, my exact words were that Mafia didn't have any significant flaws that I could think of. That statement was as correct then as it is now. Mafia had some flaws, but they were minor and hardly worth notice. In fact, I can't recall a single one. Hah!

that people keep comparing it to GTA despite the fact that it obviously is not

FFS, when someone plays GTA not as a sandbox game, but as a story-driven third-person shooter with an open world, then comparisons with Mafia are natural and unavoidable. And believe it or not, many people play GTA like that, finding that sandbox elements in GTA have little or no lasting entertainment value, and the reason why they have so little lasting entertainment value is because driving mechanics in GTA just aren't very good. Unlike Mafia.

It's got a good story and atmosphere

Try great story and superb, unmatched, jizz-worthy atmosphere, and you may come close to describing the magnificence that is Mafia.

but it's not a very good game

The fact that it tries to bore you out of your skull by forcing you to drive from point A to point B in fairly gameplay-less sequences doesn't automagically relate it to the GTA.

It can when the game forces you to drive to and from missions for no discernible reason. It's not added gameplay, it doesn't add anything in fact.

If I were reviewing Mafia I'd be sorely tempted to take it to task for that nonsense. It promises sandbox gameplay but then uses the open world purely for padding. That's just bad design.

Stop right there. You are making a completely subjective qualification and stating it as fact. If I were to speculate on your reasons for doing that, I would be tempted to say that you just don't get it, so...

You just don't get it.

Mafia isn't just a third-person shooter. It is also a driving sim. It differs from most driving sims in that it doesn't always pit you against competing drivers, but it is still a driving sim, and a damn good one at that. What makes Mafia such a good driving sim? A combination of great driving mechanics, superlative visuals and brilliantly crafted and detailed world - and by "world" I don't mean just its aesthetic aspects, but also the rules that govern it, which make Mafia's world one of the best, most detailed simulations of big-city traffic to date.

If it's hard for you to wrap you mind around the idea that someone might enjoy driving around Lost Heaven in a 1930's rust bucket, just remember that many of us enjoy driving in real life as well. No, real-life driving has no "gameplay" either, yet it can be both relaxing and fun, depending on whether you are cruising Côte d'Azur in a Jaguar XJ or tearing up a Dubai freeway in a Nissan GT-R. In fact, entire genres have sprung up around mechanics that people like you dismiss as "boring" and "pointless". I'm guessing you would also hate something like this - after all, who wants to spend a good chunk of their real-life day piloting a virtual Boeing 737 on a routine flight - yet thousands of people around the world swear by it.

You are wrong about another thing. Never did Mafia promise a sandbox, and if you came to Mafia with such expectations, you should have done your research better. Mafia promises a ridiculously detailed virtual world to drive around (and occasionally walk around), and that is exactly what it delivers. Boy, does it deliver. And guess what? If Mafia didn't have all that "boring" and "pointless" non-gameplay, it would be just another third-person shooter, albeit very good one. Indeed, just like Max Payne. And no, it wouldn't have made my Top-20 list.

I get that it has a cult following for whom this is "immersive" tho. If you want to be immersed in boredom, sure. If it works for you, cool. But can I say a reviewer is "wrong" when taking this "feature" to task?

Absolutely and without reservations. Someone who considers simulated driving boring has no business reviewing a game like Mafia, much like someone who hates the idea of flying a 737 from Rome to Ibiza should not review Flight Simulator X. A reviewer who detests a particular style of gameplay, but goes on and reviews a game in that style anyway is a dilettante, plain and simple. I'm painfully aware that in this great era of Internet journalism it is common for a reviewer to get saddled with games that they cannot understand nor appreciate, which explains why so many cult games never get the media recognition they deserve (Mafia was largely spared this fate, thankfully), but that doesn't mean such dilettantism should be tolerated, let alone elevated into some kind of a professional standard, as you seem to be advocating.

 

[Sander]

Wat? By the standards of early 2000's era shooters Mafia had solid voice acting, and you know it.

That's an awfully narrow band of games there, Ratty. Many games had far superior voice acting to Mafia, and while they may not have been early 2000s shooters, early '90s adventure games or late '90s RPGs had far superior voice acting.

Mafia's voice acting is stilted and nothing feels like an actual conversation, especially because there's often a 2 second pause between one person saying something and the other reacting.

As I recall, my exact words were that Mafia didn't have any significant flaws that I could think of. That statement was as correct then as it is now. Mafia had some flaws, but they were minor and hardly worth notice. In fact, I can't recall a single one. Hah!

You're blind, then.
Voice acting is terrible. The game is fairly buggy, especially with regard to the police (oh hey, I'm standing right in front of them and they can't find me). The world is very poorly used - it's just a backdrop for a very linear game, and the environment never gets lifted beyond that. Yes, it's pretty detailed (though I don't see how it's really any more detailed than, say, the GTA games), but it's a background and nothing more.

FFS, when someone plays GTA not as a sandbox game, but as a story-driven third-person shooter with an open world, then comparisons with Mafia are natural and unavoidable. And believe it or not, many people play GTA like that, finding that sandbox elements in GTA have little or no lasting entertainment value, and the reason why they have so little lasting entertainment value is because driving mechanics in GTA just aren't very good. Unlike Mafia.

And what do you base this amazing generalization on? Your own experience with this game or some form of psychic polling? Will some people play GTA like that? Undoubtedly. But every GTA game makes it clear that you're supposed to go out and explore this world and have fun in it beyond the missions. That's the real core of every GTA game.

Stop right there. You are making a completely subjective qualification and stating it as fact. If I were to speculate on your reasons for doing that, I would be tempted to say that you just don't get it, so...

You just don't get it.

Mafia isn't just a third-person shooter. It is also a driving sim. It differs from most driving sims in that it doesn't always pit you against competing drivers, but it is still a driving sim, and a damn good one at that. What makes Mafia such a good driving sim? A combination of great driving mechanics, superlative visuals and brilliantly crafted and detailed world - and by "world" I don't mean just its aesthetic aspects, but also the rules that govern it, which make Mafia's world one of the best, most detailed simulations of big-city traffic to date.

If that floats your boat, then fine.
But holy shit are you overstating things here. The reason it's the best big-city traffic simulator is that no one is interested in making another one. And honestly, this one isn't very good anyway. Oh yeah, it has traffic lights and cops. But I can just drive on the pavement and the cops don't care. In fact, *all* the cops care about are speeding violations and driving through traffic lights. Pretty much every other traffic rule can be broken without anyone caring.

I don't think the driving mechanics are particularly impressive either though they're decent, but to call them 'great' is stretching belief beyond imagination. When I can hit a bump at 80mph and go flying up in the air some 15 meters, or when I can hit a wall head on with 50 and then simply drive on there's something wrong with this realistic world of yours.

You are wrong about another thing. Never did Mafia promise a sandbox, and if you came to Mafia with such expectations, you should have done your research better.

Maybe people comparing it to GTA, like you, shouldn't be comparing it to GTA instead. It's nothing like GTA. It has shooting and driving in it, but that is all there is to it.

Absolutely and without reservations.

Bullshit. Reviewers always make their opinions on these games count and they always have to, because otherwise every review would simply be a list of "Its shooting mechanics work. Its

And here's the key: most people probably couldn't care less about driving to and fro under the speed limit. And that's what that review caters to: most people, not Mafia fans. Hell, if you're a Mafia fan you can perfectly take away from that review what you need: it's just like Mafia.

 

[Brother None]

Wat? By the standards of early 2000's era shooters Mafia had solid voice acting, and you know it.

That's not a relevant standard. Shitty voice acting is shitty, and the naughties is certainly not a decade in which I can excuse shitty VA. As it has.

FFS, when someone plays GTA not as a sandbox game, but as a story-driven third-person shooter with an open world.

It's not relevant what people play GTA as, it's relevant what GTA is. It's not trying to be a story-driven TPS, so saying it does that less well than Mafia is asinine, and that's exactly what people do.

Stop right there.

Ok. I wasn't aware I was still typing in those paragraphs but thanks for telling me to stop.

You are making a completely subjective qualification and stating it as fact.

Yeah, unlike "great story and superb, unmatched, jizz-worthy atmosphere, and you may come close to describing the magnificence that is Mafia", which is totally not a subjective qualification stated as fact.

It is also a driving sim.

A fairly gameplay-less driving sim as it does not pose any challenges to you, unless you self-impose them by switching off the speed limiter and putting the car on manual. It's fairly flacid otherwise, which is why it's boring.

GTA jettisons most sims aspects in favour of actually making the driving interesting. Mafia doesn't, it reminds you of the tedium of waiting for traffic lights every opportunity it gets.

The problem is not that I disagree that there are people to whom this tedium will appeal. In fact, I recognized as much in saying that if being immersed in boredom is your thing then that's fine, so I'm not sure what people are getting their panties up in a bunch for.

The problem is that Mafia forces you through these gameplay-lite, tedious segments. It also forces people who love this driving into shooting segments, which have really shitty shooting mechanics (nice challenge level though). Why? What did the developer actually think to accomplish by putting "drive back to Salieri's" at the end of every mission? What's wrong with just letting me zap back if that's how I prefer it.

Another problem is that it isn't very good. The AI of other drivers is terrible, I see traffic accidents all the time. Cops don't respond to their violations of course. Not to mention many violations from me are fine, like hitting the sidewalk or driving in the wrong lane. It's about as good a simulator as you'd like in a sandbox game, only it's not in a sandbox game.

Yes, yes, I know, you get really immersed by it. But I don't. So why force me through it? It's bad design, it's the equivalent of trash mobs in most RPGs, equivalent of padding in films. It is, in fact, padding.

Never did Mafia promise a sandbox, and if you came to Mafia with such expectations, you should have done your research better.

I came to Mafia expecting a good game, and got a decent enough one with a load of flaws. If I expected a sandbox, it's only because ignorant people keep comparing it to GTA. That said, when I say "it promises", I'm referring in fact to what happens when I boot up the game. I see a wide-open world, I find myself hoping there's interesting stuff in there. There isn't, there's a big load of nothing.

And no, it wouldn't have made my Top-20 list.

Yes, your lack of taste has been well-established by now, Ratty.

like someone who hates the idea of flying a 737 from Rome to Ibiza should not review Flight Simulator X.

Bullshit. The reviewer can note it's not for him but he's reviewing for a wide audience who also think this is boring shit. Maybe because it is. Especially since Mafia does in fact target the GTA-audience, which is disingenuous, no matter how much you'd like to stand on your head to deny it.

 

[mor]

@Sander

maybe but your arguments will be more convincing with some examples not 'Many games' reference also i dont think that your generalization regarding GTA are educate, as the latest GTA and its addons changed focus and are much more story driven.

as for the rest the main problem is the criteria according to which you classify your games, this why you consider you consider that comparing GTA to mafia is retarded and that max pain is better fit, while i think its the opposite.

and as for the 'driving sim' the point is immersion and not real life simulation and that will become tedious and annoying.

 

[Sander]

@Sander

maybe but your arguments will be more convincing with some examples not 'Many games' reference

Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, Half-Life, Half-Life 2, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, any LucasArts adventure game, any GTA game. There's a ton more.

also i dont think that your generalization regarding GTA are educate, as the latest GTA and its addons changed focus and are much more story driven.

There's a story. It's still based on an open, sandbox-style world that isn't plot-driven.

and as for the 'driving sim' the point is immersion and not real life simulation and that will become tedious and annoying.

What? I thought people liked Mafia because it was so close to real life simulation.

 

[AskWazzup]

GTA jettisons most sims aspects in favour of actually making the driving interesting.

Dumbing it down, so casual players could enjoy the experience, doesn't sound so interesting to me . Although, actually i think i have seen some people, on the forums, complaining that GTA IV driving mechanics were too difficult

Mafia doesn't, it reminds you of the tedium of waiting for traffic lights every opportunity it gets.

You don't really have to do that. You could speed up pretty much most of the time and i had loads of fun trying to go as fast as i can and finding the shortest routes, while trying not to get the attention of the cops. I'd say i even liked them chasing me, as i would try to get away (which wasn't always simple, but hey that's why it's fun).

The driving is of course not on par with true driving simulators, but those are the best driving mechanics i have seen in a shooter.

 

[mor]

@Sander

maybe but your arguments will be more convincing with some examples not 'Many games' reference

Fallout, Fallout 2, Planescape Torment, Baldur's Gate, Half-Life, Half-Life 2, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, any LucasArts adventure game, any GTA game. There's a ton more.

[/quote]

ok so out of those examples, which ones one feelt like an "an actual conversation" ?

Mafia's voice acting is stilted and nothing feels like an actual conversation, especially because there's often a 2 second pause between one person saying something and the other reacting.

btw, mafia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUudQ0oJpIA

also i dont think that your generalization regarding GTA are educate, as the latest GTA and its addons changed focus and are much more story driven.

There's a story. It's still based on an open, sandbox-style world that isn't plot-driven.

unlike the first few the environment is there to compliment the expirance and reward the player for exploring.

but maybe you are right, you should probably go and edit the mafia2 entry in wikipidea maybe then you wont be the only one 2 guys thinking the game has more in common with max pain then gta.

 

[Brother None]

Dumbing it down, so casual players could enjoy the experience, doesn't sound so interesting to me.

"Dumbing down" and "casual" are important concepts but easy to misapply. Was moving the helicopter view into 3rd person dumbing down? Is offering an in-game map rather than just the map in the game's box dumbing down? Not really, it's just improving on existing gameplay elements.

People take issue with GTA's lack of realism but the thing is, lack of realism is tied to sandbox as a genre. You can not make a realistic sandbox game and still expect it to be enjoyable. When I play Mafia I get the feeling this is what they set out to do, and it's why it doesn't work.

You don't really have to do that.

And obviously I didn't. I spent half my time driving in the wrong lane and never paid any mind to traffic lights.

The driving is of course not on par with true driving simulators, but those are the best driving mechanics i have seen in a shooter.

Too bad the shooting mechanics are so terrible then.

And AI too! Oh man, the combat AI, oh man...

ok so out of those examples, which ones one feelt like an "an actual conversation" ?

What an odd question. All of those games have better voice-acting than Mafia. The pause thing in conversations is common RPGs (like any BioWare game), but any GTA has a better flow in dialogue than Mafia. Those pauses are odd.

but maybe you are right, you should probably go and edit the mafia2 entry in wikipidea maybe then you wont be the only one 2 guys thinking the game has more in common with max pain then gta.

Eh? The Mafia 2 entry doesn't mention GTA. What are you talking about?

Will you calm down and start presenting rational arguments please, mor? Your posts are getting increasingly hard to read.

 

[mor]

GTA jettisons most sims aspects in favour of actually making the driving interesting.

Dumbing it down, so casual players could enjoy the experience, doesn't sound so interesting to me . Although, actually i think i have seen some people, on the forums, complaining that GTA IV driving mechanics were too difficult

there is few things that should be added to gta driving experience but not much, unless you wish to get the numbing experience of getting stuck in traffic and wasting 30min in traffic trying to get from point A to point B.

 

[Sander]

ok so out of those examples, which ones one feelt like an "an actual conversation" ?

Most of those games only had one side of a conversation voiced, as the other side was the PC. The conversations in the GTA games or even Max Payne certainly feel a lot more like actual conversations.

You may also note that "not feeling like an actual conversation" wasn't my only complaint about the voice ating.

btw, mafia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUudQ0oJpIA

Yeah, this may surprise you, but I've played the game and hence know the kind of voice acting in it.

And holy shit, that video does nothing to convince me the voice acting was any good. There's no emotion in the voice acting, most actors use very little in the way of intonation and it just feels wrong.

That's what you get when you hire TV actors instead of professional voice actors to do your voice work.

unlike the first few the environment is there to compliment the expirance and reward the player for exploring.

So, again, something that Mafia doesn't do, huh?

And all the GTA games have a lot of stuff you can do outside the linear storyline. In fact, the storylines itself are less linear than in Mafia because you can approach them in your own time and you can often choose in what order to do the storyline.

but maybe you are right, you should probably go and edit the mafia2 entry in wikipidea maybe then you wont be the only one 2 guys thinking the game has more in common with max pain then gta.

Reviewers compared it to GTA! That must mean it's like GTA!
Or, GTA is the most convenient comparison to make while not actually being a relevant comparison.

 

[AskWazzup]

"Dumbing down" and "casual" are important concepts but easy to misapply. Was moving the helicopter view into 3rd person dumbing down? Is offering an in-game map rather than just the map in the game's box dumbing down? Not really, it's just improving on existing gameplay elements.

I was refering to the driving mechanics.

People take issue with GTA's lack of realism but the thing is, lack of realism is tied to sandbox as a genre. You can not make a realistic sandbox game and still expect it to be enjoyable. When I play Mafia I get the feeling this is what they set out to do, and it's why it doesn't work.

I wouldn't say that Mafia tried to be realistic, i'd rather use the term - believable.

And obviously I didn't. I spent half my time driving in the wrong lane and never paid any mind to traffic lights.

Mafia doesn't, it reminds you of the tedium of waiting for traffic lights every opportunity it gets.

Too bad the shooting mechanics are so terrible then.

And AI too! Oh man, the combat AI, oh man...

Not as terrible, as the ones in GTA

 

[Brother None]

I was refering to the driving mechanics.

Yes, and I was giving examples of how the concept of "dumbing down" can be misapplied when it's simply about finding the mechanic that works best for the genre. As with driving.

I wouldn't say that Mafia tried to be realistic, i'd rather use the term - believable.

...so?

Mafia doesn't, it reminds you of the tedium of waiting for traffic lights every opportunity it gets.

Yes, it reminds you of it. Where in that sentence did I say I spent my entire plathrough stopping for traffic lights?

Not as terrible, as the ones in GTA

Uh, actually, yes, significantly worse than any GTA. In the rooftop cop sequence I could actually keeping popping them in the head and they wouldn't react. They'd bunch up on the fire escape and never go up. The AI is terrible.

I'm sorry AW but what the hell was the point of that response? Please think before you reply to a message, that was a really annoying waste of time.

 

[mor]

ok so out of those examples, which ones one feelt like an "an actual conversation" ?

What an odd question. All of those games have better voice-acting than Mafia. The pause thing in conversations is common RPGs (like any BioWare game), but any GTA has a better flow in dialogue than Mafia. Those pauses are odd.

better flow is usually an in game mechanic and has nothing to do with voice-acting besides of his examples that came before mafia has no dialogue flow at all and the comparison with HF is
also voice acting its very subjective (unless you was referring to the content) and all and all i think that they made a great job of it.

but maybe you are right, you should probably go and edit the mafia2 entry in wikipidea maybe then you wont be the only one 2 guys thinking the game has more in common with max pain then gta.

Eh? The Mafia 2 entry doesn't mention GTA. What are you talking about?

did i said it mention GTA? however it does desxrive mafia2 as " sandbox-style action-adventure video game"

 

[Sander]

better flow is usually an in game mechanic and has nothing to do with voice-acting besides of his examples that came before mafia has no dialogue flow at all and the comparison with HF is

You must've missed the post I made afterward in which I explained. Including the bit where I said that 'flow' wasn't the only complaint I had.

Also flow most certainly is not a 'game mechanic'. That flow is lacking in-game. You'll see one character say something and then 2 seconds later the other guy responds as if he's cutting the guy off in midsentence.

besides voice acting its very subjective (unless you was referring to the content) and all and all i think that they made a great job of it.

Well, you'd be wrong.

did i said it mention GTA? however it does desxrive mafia2 as " sandbox-style action-adventure video game"

Wikipedia says it's sandbox-style! My god it must really be that way!
Or not, because Mafia was a game that gave you extremely little freedom in going around the city. You were always on a mission and you were given basically no time to explore the environment or interact with it as you would in a sandbox.

The fact that the world is big doesn't mean it's a sandbox.

 

[mor]

i seen your post where you explained why your example's where bad and no one said you should take what said in wikipidea as granted or said by the critics (or by the 'herd' sorry but it sounds like you still in high school mentality, i want to be different from the 'herd' trying to prove something)

it was just another hint that the game has more in common with GTA then with max pain, without really getting into pointless argument.
also its will be nice to remember that just like in music there is a lot of sub genres which can lead to hours of debate where the title belongs so unless you provide some criteria so we have some baseline this pointless.