Men's Rights Activism

[Hassknecht]

I think you mean this documentary:
Clickedyclickclick

Discussing jewish people in influential positions is not part of this thread. I don't want this thread to be derailed and vatted, so let's just keep it civil and on topic.
But you're free to start another thread about the correlation of judaism and power, if you want. As long as it doesn't end up in blatant racism, it should be fine.
/edit:
Ok, I'm not sure if this is the same documentary, but it's an interesting documentary anyway.

 

[TheWesDude]

just because someone says something that puts one race/sex in a negative light in one persons or even multiple peoples eyes does not mean it was racist or sexist.

thats the problem with discussions like this. someone will say something and others will cry sexisim or racisim and then the thread degenerates and it ends.

is there blatant sexisim against men?

if you think no then you are an idiot. at least when considering the US.

is there blatant racisim against white people in the US? you are an idiot if you think not.

but anyone that tries to talk about it is labeled sexist or racist and the debate ends quickly.

i still remember a story of a few years ago. there was a guy who did an actual historical research into the history of slavery in the US. what he found were ships logs and company ownerships that showed that the slave trade in the US was started by jews. as soon as people realized that was what his research showed, he was labeled as anti-semetic and jew-hater and etc and there were people and groups trying to get a judge to order censure of his work for being racist.

facts are facts. just because people dont like them do not mean they are not valid.

opinions are opinions, everyone has a lot of them, and some of them are stupid.

that being said, bringing up "jews rule the world!!!!" was a stupid point of that person, that was not the intent of this thread. this thread was to talk about reverse discrimination, which is really just discrimination with a different sounding name.

and yes, men are discriminated against.

 

[Sander]

There are situations where men are in a legal way discriminated against, as there are situations where white people are in a legal way discriminated against. Fact remains that in the vast, vast majority of situations, white males have it far, far better than blacks or females.


And yes, Token, bringing up the idea that Jews rule the world or whatever your point was going to be is not appropriate. If you want to discuss the (over)representation of Jews in business or wherever, feel free to make an insightful, well thought-out topic about it with no ridiculous prejudices. Don't hijack other topics.

 

[Token-not-found]

Another thing i wanted to bring up is the issue of more and more required effeminate behavior at the workplace (usually in the service industry).

The service industry is the biggest part of the job market in almost all developed countries.

Workplaces and job listing require more and more the castrated man. The man who should behave as the stereotypical women.

Luckily i anticipated that and picked one of the very few professions that let you work on your own with minimal supervision (read:responsibility)

Like i said , those careers are very few and the vast majority of males have to conform to female stereotypes if they want a job.

That is very sociable, very people and costumer oriented, a team player (aka don't question anything and be a drone), always with a smile on the face, consulting all others before doing anything and all other stereotypical female behavior. The vast,vast majority of ads require those skills , especially at the educated level, skills that women are more adept at , giving them a big advantage on the job market.

Where can a man that is not a social butterfly work? Well manual labor and very few qualified jobs.

I think this is a very big issue that makes the feminist quotas seem petty in comparison.

I'd like to see what you guys think of this.

If you want to ,you can bring data about female and male unemployment in your country.

In mine female unemployment is very, very low, but that's because they consider those that don't work as having a job in home making.

 

[Ohaimerk]

I'd like to see what you guys think of this.

I think you're a bitter cynic that's had one or two bad social situations in your life and took them way too seriously

 

[Sander]

That is very sociable, very people and costumer oriented, a team player (aka don't question anything and be a drone), always with a smile on the face, consulting all others before doing anything and all other stereotypical female behavior. The vast,vast majority of ads require those skills , especially at the educated level, skills that women are more adept at , giving them a big advantage on the job market.

You mean that when you work with people, you need to be good with people? I am shocked that competence is required of people in the labor market. Truly, truly shocked.

No wait, I'm not.

Also, seeing that as requiring a "castrated man" is some of the most sexist bollocks I've read on this forum. Christ.

Where can a man that is not a social butterfly work? Well manual labor and very few qualified jobs.

How about random office work, bureaucracy, research, most tech jobs that don't require customer interaction. Hell, most jobs that don't require customer interacton, full stop.

 

[Token-not-found]

That is very sociable, very people and costumer oriented, a team player (aka don't question anything and be a drone), always with a smile on the face, consulting all others before doing anything and all other stereotypical female behavior. The vast,vast majority of ads require those skills , especially at the educated level, skills that women are more adept at , giving them a big advantage on the job market.

You mean that when you work with people, you need to be good with people? I am shocked that competence is required of people in the labor market. Truly, truly shocked.

No wait, I'm not.

Also, seeing that as requiring a "castrated man" is some of the most sexist bollocks I've read on this forum. Christ.

Where can a man that is not a social butterfly work? Well manual labor and very few qualified jobs.

How about random office work, bureaucracy, research, most tech jobs that don't require customer interaction. Hell, most jobs that don't require customer interacton, full stop.

I forgot to mention the tech jobs, you are right, but they can only hire so many men, not to mention how many man are qualified to do them or would like to train for them.

 

[Buxbaum666]

I'd like to see what you guys think of this.

Your posts on this topic make me want to have a sex change.

 

[Sander]

I forgot to mention the tech jobs, you are right, but they can only hire so many men, not to mention how many man are qualified to do them or would like to train for them.

Dude, what? There's more need for competent technical people than in any other sector.

Also, what exactly do you want, here? You want a job where you need to interact with people a lot, but for which you need to not be good at interacting with people? Do you read your own posts?

 

[Token-not-found]

I forgot to mention the tech jobs, you are right, but they can only hire so many men, not to mention how many man are qualified to do them or would like to train for them.

Dude, what? There's more need for competent technical people than in any other sector.

Also, what exactly do you want, here? You want a job where you need to interact with people a lot, but for which you need to not be good at interacting with people? Do you read your own posts?

My point is that we don't know how many males want or can work in the tech sector.

I for example am pretty competent at tech stuff but hate math, i find it bland and uninteresting. Math competence is required for this jobs, that's just one example.

Yeah you can do that, but my point was that men not interested in tech stuff a few other qualified jobs in different sectors (very few) or manual labor are pretty much out in the cold, we can't all be programmers or engineers. Some of us like literature, others politics, others medicine, biology etc.

 

[Sander]

My point is that we don't know how many males want or can work in the tech sector.

I for example am pretty competent at tech stuff but hate math, i find it bland and uninteresting. Math competence is required for this jobs, that's just one example.

Yes, things that are required to do a job right are required of a job.

Yeah you can do that, but my point was that men not interested in tech stuff a few other qualified jobs in different sectors (very few) or manual labor are pretty much out in the cold, we can't all be programmers or engineers. Some of us like literature, others politics, others medicine, biology etc.

So be a writer, politician, bureaucrat, surgeon, biological researcher, farmer, business consultant, stock trader, manager...seriously, endless possibilities.

Also, what the hell does this have to do with gender, anyway? You can apply all of this to women, too. In fact, you can apply this to women even more so given that women universally have a harder time finding jobs except in much more restricted fields.

 

[Hassknecht]

Politeness, cleanliness and general rudimentary social skills are not effeminate, simple as that. It's part of your life if you want to have a job, or at least certain jobs.
If a person, man or woman, is socially retarded, refuses to work in a team (which, btw., does not mean „being a drone“) and does not have the required skillset for most tech jobs, what the hell is that person supposed to work? It's not a gender issue, it's an issue of general incompetence, sorry.
Maybe women have an advantage on the job market because of a more natural set of social skills. Is that their fault? If the job requires those skills, then that's it. Setting the bar lower because of gender is exactly the issue that has been brought up before, only the other way around: Women have to perform less at physical exams while, in theory, being capable of doing the same (although it would, in general, require more training, as the average woman has a lower upper body strength than a man) can pass with less „skills“.
With social skills in the job market, people are equal at the moment, or at least equally judged. That's a good thing in my opinion.
If a man refuses to work in a social way because he thinks it's „effeminate“, than that man deserves no job. Having a dick makes a man, not being one.
Yes, that definition isn't 100% exact, but let's just keep it for the humour.
/edit: Sander beat me to most of my points. Oh well.

 

[Token-not-found]

Politeness, cleanliness and general rudimentary social skills are not effeminate, simple as that. It's part of your life if you want to have a job, or at least certain jobs.
If a person, man or woman, is socially retarded, refuses to work in a team (which, btw., does not mean „being a drone“) and does not have the required skillset for most tech jobs, what the hell is that person supposed to work? It's not a gender issue, it's an issue of general incompetence, sorry.
Maybe women have an advantage on the job market because of a more natural set of social skills. Is that their fault? If the job requires those skills, then that's it. Setting the bar lower because of gender is exactly the issue that has been brought up before, only the other way around: Women have to perform less at physical exams while, in theory, being capable of doing the same (although it would, in general, require more training, as the average woman has a lower upper body strength than a man) can pass with less „skills“.
With social skills in the job market, people are equal at the moment, or at least equally judged. That's a good thing in my opinion.
If a man refuses to work in a social way because he thinks it's „effeminate“, than that man deserves no job. Having a dick makes a man, not being one.
Yes, that definition isn't 100% exact, but let's just keep it for the humour.
/edit: Sander beat me to most of my points. Oh well.

A job is not a favor , it's trading half of your waking life for a roof over your head and things you don't really need while your employer gets the real money from your work.

I, for example, could easily live out the rest of my days without working - having a bed (and maybe heating in the winter) , a computer with internet and enough money for food is enough for me. That is not the case with most people .

What i do i will do for my family (if i ever have one, not likely) , if not i will invest the money i make in other causes, i'm a minimalist.

Thing is the family institution is at an all time low, more than half of the marriages are being broken (the vast majority of them by women) and if you look at sex-before marriage statistics you will be surprised. I'm no christian (atheist) but loyalty is the most important quality in women for the legitimacy of the offspring if nothing else, and women are very disloyal (they have sex with many, many men in their youth, a good statistic indicator of marriage broke up)

Seeing the very low success i had in the past with women , based on my observation , that should improve in the future because i will be pretty well off once i get a job in my field, however i am not interested in fake-whores that are after material shit and have no interest in anything longer than a day if that happens after i start working, i will be paranoid as hell when a woman that would not give me the time of day 5 years before becomes magically interested in me after i have a nice income. So - no relationships after i start working.

In life it is very useful and good to apply filters, specially to women, to avoid those interested in something else than yourself, if now they have very little interest, the only thing that will change will be how much money i make. It's clear that the man value increases with age (thanks to career and income) while the female one decreases (loss of fertility and youth) , so if you have a good job you can have a fake-whore wife with more rides on her than al budy's old dodge. After she spent her entire youth fucking trash, she will sucker you into marriage and most likely (according to statistics) divorce.

So yeah , i think the family institution is at an all time low.

 

[Sander]

A job is not a favor , it's trading half of your waking life for a roof over your head and things you don't really need while your employer gets the real money from your work.

I, for example, could easily live out the rest of my days without working - having a bed (and maybe heating in the winter) , a computer with internet and enough money for food is enough for me. That is not the case with most people .

What i do i will do for my family (if i ever have one, not likely) , if not i will invest the money i make in other causes, i'm a minimalist.

Thing is the family institution is at an all time low, more than half of the marriages are being broken (the vast majority of them by women) and if you look at sex-before marriage statistics you will be surprised. I'm no christian (atheist) but loyalty is the most important quality in women for the legitimacy of the offspring if nothing else, and women are very disloyal (they have sex with many, many men in their youth)

...
Are you for real? Is this a joke? This is the most bullshit sexist rant I've read in a long, long time. Oh no, women have sex with other men! Marriages are not forever!

No shit, dude. Maybe you don't realize this, but that whole freedom-of-choice thing you have? It applies to women too. Everyone has the right to choose how to lead their own life, who they have sex with, how often they do that - and when people marry other people, they are under no obligation to be married forever in a bad marriage. Why don't you try looking at it from the other side, huh? Women are people too, yet you seem to only be capable of thinking of them as objects - they're there to provide children, legitimacy, provide a family in your eyes. They're fake-whores after material shit. No, bullshit. They're people, and they can live their lives the way they want to live it - and that goes for everyone.

 

[Buxbaum666]

...
Are you for real? Is this a joke? This is the most bullshit sexist rant I've read in a long, long time.

You obviously haven't read this, then. This guy is clearly either an elaborate troll or a complete moron. His opinion on rape is:

Really now, it used to be a monthly occurence in the past and i don't think having sex with someone you don't like or want warrants all that drama. I mean prostitutes do it on a daily basis- do you think she wants or likes that fat hairy guy?

Also:

Yeah , i hate women.

Amongst the first things he posted was a song by Belgian neo-nazi band "Kill Baby, Kill"

And some other racist stuff in here.

 

[Token-not-found]

...
Are you for real? Is this a joke? This is the most bullshit sexist rant I've read in a long, long time.

You obviously haven't read this, then. This guy is clearly either an elaborate troll or a complete moron. His opinion on rape is:

Really now, it used to be a monthly occurence in the past and i don't think having sex with someone you don't like or want warrants all that drama. I mean prostitutes do it on a daily basis- do you think she wants or likes that fat hairy guy?

Also:

Yeah , i hate women.

You've taken that text out of context, anyone interested should read the whole post.

 

[Buxbaum666]

You've taken that text out of context

No, I have not. There is no context in which these words could possibly be acceptable.

 

[TheWesDude]

one of my old bosses on a helpdesk i got fired from told me the truth over why i was fired after i ran into her at a grocery store.

it was a helpdesk on a government contract, and they had certain numbers they were required to report, especially for competency.

after 9 months i had ended up in the top 2% of their agents for technical competency out of about 1,000 people doing helpdesk work. the problem? i kicked out the only woman in that ranking. they were about to do their end of year financials and reporting statistics. they were required to show they had hired competent people of both minorities and women. and here was me kicking out women of the highest reportable tier for competency.

as i was the "last hired" that was in that ranking, they were basically required by law to manufacture a reason and then fire me.

so they fired me for attendance issues for missing 3 unexcused days in 9 months.

quotas and equality rules are hurting the US. want to know why jobs are moving to foreign countries? labor costs are a large part of it, but also in those countries they dont have to worry about quotas.

they prohibit companies and government services from hiring the most competent person for the job and rather require hiring people less able to perform a job throughout the hiring process through various means.


the latest college statistics show that men make up like 36% of college applications, and like 28% of acceptances. men are now a minority at our colleges/universities. where is our "affirmative action" to provide benifits and protections for men to go to them?

but they wont do anything to encourage men to go to college. as long as white men make up the minority, there isnt any discrimination right. women still require all those protections they have to get into college and pay for it right?

 

[Sander]

You've taken that text out of context, anyone interested should read the whole post.

No, not really, it was perfectly in context. I'm tired of your sexist, misogynistic rantings, not to mention the anti-semitism. Banned.

the latest college statistics show that men make up like 36% of college applications, and like 28% of acceptances. men are now a minority at our colleges/universities. where is our "affirmative action" to provide benifits and protections for men to go to them?

but they wont do anything to encourage men to go to college. as long as white men make up the minority, there isnt any discrimination right. women still require all those protections they have to get into college and pay for it right?

This is bullshit. I'm sure the statistics are more or less correct (though I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating - everything I find isn't nearly as lopsided), women have been outperforming men in US colleges for ages. Why is that? Well, for a number of reasons. For one, we would actually expect women to be better present in institutes of higher learning: there are more women than men in the population, after all.

But, that does NOT mean that "they wont do anything to encourage men to go to college". In fact, the percentage of men and women enrolled in college both has risen considerably over the past forty years. The presence of more women in college isn't coming at the cost of fewer men in college, it's an expansion of the system of higher education as a whole. What we're seeing is an expanse of the number of women in college - full stop. And more people getting a higher education is a good thing, not something to be lamented because they happen to be women (seriously, what?).

Here's a good analysis of the statistics: http://www.swifteconomics.com/2009/09/18/lies-damned-lies-and-statistics-the-college-gap/

If that link doesn't work, here's the google cache

 

[TorontoReign]

I am not attacking you or trying to take the moral high ground here. I am just saying.

Not really. The pt tests are adjusted simply because most females don't run as fast as males, can't do as many push ups, and can't carry as much.

Absolute nonsense. Females can do as much like males.

We are talking here about the typical female and male here. And with good training the difference are not that huge. Not in a way where it matters. They will be both able to perform well enough for the task. Obviously there are differences but we are not talking here about a Schwarzeneger type of contest where males probably pretty much dominate the bodybuilding sport. But fact is when it comes to usual tasks males and females can pretty much reach the same results.

Which is WHY I am so angry about those fucked up double standards. Maybe if this "girl" cant do what I can she should eventually train more? The physical tests we did in the fire brigade was not so difficult that you had to be some kind of olympian to pass it. I am confident that any human person capable of doing sport could pass it. Male or female.

Alright, lets try to view this from a slightly different angle. You say "That doesn't mean they're any less useful though, just suited better for specific skill sets." So we assume because they cant perform the required task in the same way like a male they are fit for "other" duties. Now lets see it this way. You have a female and a male with the same build (more or less, yes they do exits). The female will pass the test as its easier from the strain the male will simply fail. Why is the female here granted the possibility of being fit for other tasks and the male which would have eventually passed HER test as well not? Is this really equal? Again, the real situation does NOT care if you are a male or female. It is NOT about sexism here. It is about the requirements for the tasks in front of you. Do females get the same "rules" in exams? Because as well all know females cant do math right? So they should actually get easier functions and allowed a higher margin of errors. No? Thats sexist? Yes of course it is. Because even if there are differences in the behavior of males and females both are capable of reaching the same results with training and studding. Its the same with most tasks regarding everyday life which also includes duty in the military, police or fire brigade.

I say, as long we still need "special" laws and regulations to get females in those jobs we will still have to deal with sexism and inequality. Regarding both genders, males and females.

The rule should be to get the best for the job. If it happens to be a female, so be it. If it happens to be a male. As well. So be it.

I have seen woman perform the fireman carry on people twice their size, many of them were expert marksman, and they knew their shit as well as any man. Just saying.

then why are there still those double standards around? Sounds to me like its a huge contradiction.

Females proved countless times again and again that they can perform the same tasks as well like males in combat, duty what ever.

Yet, many places have special rules for different genders ... wtf? Give everyone equal chances. See what the task requires as minimum and go from there. Chose the person not because of their gender but because of what they are capable of doing. Physical, mental and social skills should matter. Not what gender the person has. I know it is easy to simply say that but probably very difficult to achieve, maybe impossible. Simply because that is how humans work, we all have one way or anothe even if we dont admit it prejudices.

But still this is the problem I have with many of those rules. They create double standards.

Also, note that I said MOST females not ALL - important difference there.

Dude, I'm strictly speaking from personal experience. One female in my unit outperformed a male. One. The standards are pretty fair. Until you see one of the Army chicks run a 14 minute two mile (I never did), I would say they should stick to their 16 minute goal instead. All I'm saying is, I never saw a woman do 90 pushups like I did, but one did come pretty close, the rest did around 40 or so. They have the potential to make higher scores if they want to so what is the problem? The standards are there so they can be met. If you set excessively high standards for people that can't meet them, then you have shitty pt scores, and the higher ups get pretty angry. If they exceed the standard then they get a higher score. I never heard one female complain about the standards either. Have you ever watched any of these Army pt tests that you are talking about being bullshit?


Note: I'm not saying things are equal either, because they really aren't. I just figured I would speak from personal experience to clarify the issue a little. I never met one woman in the military who whined about double-standards. Not a single fucking one. If they wanted to they could get the standards changed, I have no doubt of that, but no one cares enough to do that. Most soldiers aren't super excited to do pt tests, and are happy to get them over with. They usually don't say, "gee I wish I had to do more pushups, situps, and run faster to pass"....



I take that back, I knew one woman that did the maximum amount of pushups on the MALE pt standard, but she happened to be a lesbian. To be honest, she was more man than many of the men in our unit. True story.