donperkan
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
welsh said:
I heard some dude got his balls squashed like that, he didn't survive. Do we have a doctor in here who can confirm that.
Men's Rights Activism
- Thread starter Hassknecht
- Start date
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I heard some dude got his balls squashed like that, he didn't survive. Do we have a doctor in here who can confirm that.
SnapSlav
NMA's local DotA fanatic
That's the state of affairs with most "great causes", unfortunately.thegaresexperience said:
Take environmentalism. One of the movement's biggest and earliest organizations, Greenpeace, was founded by a small group of passionate, left-leaning idealists who were out to "make the world a better place" with an emphasis on environmental regulations and ecological preservation. That was back in the 70s, but by the 80s it was hijacked by anti-capitalist extremists who used the message of "environmentalism" to spread their disestablishment agenda. One of the founders, Patrick Moore, resigned from the organization he helped to create, because he saw that its aims had shifted from what he believed in. Today he's one of the strongest and most outspoken critics of their manipulative campaigns like global warming, recycling, and paper-free, yet he remains a grounded and highly respected environmentally-focused scientific mind. The movement he started had good roots, but it went bad not long after.
Or we could draw similar comparisons to animal rights. While I'm not so sure PETA *ever* had such noble roots (considering its founder), many of its "general public" supporters are well-meaning people who believe in a (somewhat fanciful) idea of coexisting with animals. They focus on the ideas of banning animal cruelty, which is all fine and good. It's just once you get down to the hypocrisy at the core of the groups- centered largely around its leadership -like their assertions that they require medicine from animal byproducts so they can live to "protect the rights of animals", or that any shelter that kills stray animals are murderers that should be firebombed and picketed when they themselves kill more than half the animals they ever "rescue", that you realize the movement's actual goals are anything but noble.
Men's Rights, at its core, is a good cause. But equality isn't something that can be legislated, even if the situation for men in the world really WAS as horrible as some make it out. They may have low preference in job selection, they may have lower income than women without children, and they CERTAINLY don't have fair representation in the aforementioned divorce/custody rulings. But more laws won't improve anything for anyone, they'll just make problems worse. Ideals, morality, or kindness in general can't be legislated into existence. More liberties means less laws, not more, and this goes for all rights movements. Of course, none of this matters when the loudest message being broadcast is just ignorance and hate from anti-feminist lunatics.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Snap
i see it as a result of feministias getting louder and manufacturing "data" to show how maligned women are such as this "pay equity" myth. a myth that became so prevalent it caused laws to get passed requiring equality when reality is showing that women get paid more than men.
when feministas get louder, things change in favor of women and feminists, even to the detriment of men. especially to the detriment of men. and that is not equality. equality is favor to neither, and that is not what we have had for a while.
i WANT equality. what i see is not equality. what i see is legal discrimination of the minority by the majority.
you are right, equality is something that must happen in the absence of legislation and regulation. unfortunately all i see is more laws and programs getting passed or created rather than removed. we need to start removing programs created FOR a gender and reinforce those programs that do the same thing regardless of gender.
i see it as a result of feministias getting louder and manufacturing "data" to show how maligned women are such as this "pay equity" myth. a myth that became so prevalent it caused laws to get passed requiring equality when reality is showing that women get paid more than men.
when feministas get louder, things change in favor of women and feminists, even to the detriment of men. especially to the detriment of men. and that is not equality. equality is favor to neither, and that is not what we have had for a while.
i WANT equality. what i see is not equality. what i see is legal discrimination of the minority by the majority.
you are right, equality is something that must happen in the absence of legislation and regulation. unfortunately all i see is more laws and programs getting passed or created rather than removed. we need to start removing programs created FOR a gender and reinforce those programs that do the same thing regardless of gender.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3507360&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=21
Welp, just came in here to tell you it looks like the goons have found this thread. I'd suggest deleting the thread or at the very least to think over your posts very carefully because I think the Games board is still a bit sore about the whole Fallout 3 debate (in which both sides acted far too melodramatic, from what I gather) and Something Awful users are into mining Men's Rights things for quotes to generate amusement/anger, kind of like how its offspring site, 4chan, mines feminist sites for quotes for the same purposes.
Welp, just came in here to tell you it looks like the goons have found this thread. I'd suggest deleting the thread or at the very least to think over your posts very carefully because I think the Games board is still a bit sore about the whole Fallout 3 debate (in which both sides acted far too melodramatic, from what I gather) and Something Awful users are into mining Men's Rights things for quotes to generate amusement/anger, kind of like how its offspring site, 4chan, mines feminist sites for quotes for the same purposes.
Eh, yeah, we're not deleting a thread just because SomethingAwful's making fun of it. What the fuck kind of attitude would that be? Let them make fun if they want. Who cares?OakTable said:
TheWesDude: the wage gap is not a 'myth' - it is real. Sure, it's gotten smaller - but it is still real. All academic scholarship agrees on this point, and any refutation of the gap relies on selectively applying the data.
T
TorontoReign
Guest
The slack-jawed cockweasels at SA really don't have much room to talk. If they still can't understand why many dislike Fallout 3 then they're beyond help. I have a sneaking suspicion that a large amount of their members consist of trolls and 12 year old virgins. Mine that for quotes dickwads.
That being said this thread is garbage.
That being said this thread is garbage.
welsh
Junkmaster
TheWesDude said:
I hear ya. I mean, thousands of years of human history in which women are treated as an inferior sex.... that data just HAS to be faked.
Really, anyone with THAT much evidence of repression has got to be making that much shit up.....
I mean.. so what if women are pressed in much of the world. Or that we have a history of laws that treated women as the inferior sex because.. the men who drafted the laws thought women were the inferior sex..... yeah.. all that bullshit.
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/equalpayact1.html
http://www.catalyst.org/publication/217/womens-earnings-and-income
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1983185,00.html
(honestly, I suspect guys who complain about the feministas are either fat blowhard republican pundits and/or can't get laid)
So Wes, got proof?
Dude, there are more women than men. And the legal system of any country is a consequence of political forces in which social actors compete and compromise about the distribution of power and wealth in a society.
Just like laws once maintain pay inequality for women, and slavery for african americans, it take protest and challenge by those groups to change the law in ways more favorable to them. But the law is not static nor is fair, nor does it serve society equally. Law is a political consequence of political contention and compromise.
If you are worried that men have become emasculated, than maybe those men need to grow a pair and stand up for their rights. Or perhaps they expect to have someone wipe their asses for them too?
Bullshit. In the absence of law, we promote an anarchy in which the power of social groups is unleashed in its brutality. Lets see, how equal were the sexes in the middle ages? In feudal society? What you are advocating is leaving women vulnerable to men.
What do young men fear of women- embarrassment, rejection, humiliation.
What do women fear of men- violence, rape and murder.
How is that equality?
SO the Men's Rights Movement?
http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform...ing/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women
I think you simplify the problem a we bit to much Welsh.
While there sure happens a lot of violance regarding females this also happens to males as well. I have no numbers right now but I would not be surprised if females happen to see more violance. So I do agree with you here, the females are a group that will face here eventually more problems. But you should not think males never get raped for example. Particularly in areas like some african states with very violent civil wars this is more common then you believe. Also it should not be forgotten that abuse has not to be always about physical harm. I had to deal with such abuse so I know what I am talking about.
Though laws for equal rights are not going to change the violence here, this is an entirely different problem that has to do with the way how those males see females. Just because there are laws which allow the female now to become the Manager of General Electrics will not change the behaviour of her abusive husband.
Surprisingly we have this debate right now where they want to pass a law. This law is about the biggest German companies and that at least 40% of the members in their board of directors should be females. Strange enough public surveys show that in general only about 30% think it is a good law and would prefer a flexible alternative. 39% of the females think the law is good while the rest would as well prefer a flexible alternative.
Laws, dont have to be always a "good" thing. You know I never was a fan of special laws for homosexuals for example. You know why? It always has this feeling attached to it, they are special, so we have to see them as a special group, with special dessires etc. Why not simply accept them as people eventually? I exagerate a little but I hope you get the point. You might not get things equal if you always make special laws. You might just seperate the groups and that cant be the real itention either.
Although I do agree if you have a group, company etc. and it is full with like 99% or 100% males of the special kind (white, rich, almost fascistic) ... then it is very hard for a female to get in. Maybe impossible. But you have two sides here really. The freedom to chose what you want to believe and the equal rights movement. Females should have the same chances as males, they should have the right to achieve what they want for themself, we dont even have to really discuss that. There should be no biased views or stereotypes. But fighting those ideas some have is very difficult. And I am not sure if more laws will change that eventually. You cant change the mind of people if they dont want it. You cant brainwash a 65 year old manager living in his chauvinistic view to become a fighter for womans right. Even if he would "agree", simply because its a law.
Though yeah doing nothing at all might be even worse.
While there sure happens a lot of violance regarding females this also happens to males as well. I have no numbers right now but I would not be surprised if females happen to see more violance. So I do agree with you here, the females are a group that will face here eventually more problems. But you should not think males never get raped for example. Particularly in areas like some african states with very violent civil wars this is more common then you believe. Also it should not be forgotten that abuse has not to be always about physical harm. I had to deal with such abuse so I know what I am talking about.
Though laws for equal rights are not going to change the violence here, this is an entirely different problem that has to do with the way how those males see females. Just because there are laws which allow the female now to become the Manager of General Electrics will not change the behaviour of her abusive husband.
Surprisingly we have this debate right now where they want to pass a law. This law is about the biggest German companies and that at least 40% of the members in their board of directors should be females. Strange enough public surveys show that in general only about 30% think it is a good law and would prefer a flexible alternative. 39% of the females think the law is good while the rest would as well prefer a flexible alternative.
Laws, dont have to be always a "good" thing. You know I never was a fan of special laws for homosexuals for example. You know why? It always has this feeling attached to it, they are special, so we have to see them as a special group, with special dessires etc. Why not simply accept them as people eventually? I exagerate a little but I hope you get the point. You might not get things equal if you always make special laws. You might just seperate the groups and that cant be the real itention either.
Although I do agree if you have a group, company etc. and it is full with like 99% or 100% males of the special kind (white, rich, almost fascistic) ... then it is very hard for a female to get in. Maybe impossible. But you have two sides here really. The freedom to chose what you want to believe and the equal rights movement. Females should have the same chances as males, they should have the right to achieve what they want for themself, we dont even have to really discuss that. There should be no biased views or stereotypes. But fighting those ideas some have is very difficult. And I am not sure if more laws will change that eventually. You cant change the mind of people if they dont want it. You cant brainwash a 65 year old manager living in his chauvinistic view to become a fighter for womans right. Even if he would "agree", simply because its a law.
Though yeah doing nothing at all might be even worse.
OakTable said:
Hehe, they actually mined a quote of mine. I'm amused and slighly flattered people are apparently using me as a poster boy for mysoginism...
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
welsh:
i do not claim women have not previously been underpaid comprable to men.
the latest studies show that women make more than men.
and that even that 93% figure you notate misses information.
the original 72% and up to the new 86% number... how they arrived at that number is an attempt to lie.
how those numbers were arrived at was by taking numbers reported to the IRS. they added up all incomes reported by women. then added up all incomes reported by men. then compared them. so the total of all women in the US regardless of job title vs the total of all men in the US regardless of job title.
now that 93% you cite. they compare all women vs comprable title men averaged in each title. no verification of responsibilities or consideration to length of position.
now, the last study i saw that did based on company reported data based on company allocated title ( not employee reported title ) for companies with over 5k employees and locale of work. they did not have data for length of employment.
what they found was in non-metropolitan areas, women made an average of 98% as men, but could not quantify length of employment. they also found that women missed on average 30% more work than men.
in metropolitan areas, it got much worse. in metropolitan areas they found that women made an average of 14% more than men given company title. and it went as high as 121% in atlanta georgia.
so in non-metropolitan areas women make 2% less than men, but miss almost 1/3 more work than men.
in metropolitan areas, women make an average of 14% more than men, and still miss the average 1/3 work more than men.
so the problem creating this "wage gap" depends on your perspective.
1) large companies mostly in metropolitan areas are paying women more than men.
2) small companies mostly in rural areas are paying women slightly less than men.
3) women miss an average of 1/3 the time men do. they found a national average of men missed 3.5 weeks a year, and women missed 4.6 weeks.
now, is paying someone who is at work less deserve to be paid a lower wage to compensate? under a merit system, the answer is yes. under an equality system if they are not paid an equivalent less wage, it creates inequity. under a biased system they should get paid the same numerical base wage garnering them a higher "realized" wage.
i do not claim women have not previously been underpaid comprable to men.
the latest studies show that women make more than men.
and that even that 93% figure you notate misses information.
the original 72% and up to the new 86% number... how they arrived at that number is an attempt to lie.
how those numbers were arrived at was by taking numbers reported to the IRS. they added up all incomes reported by women. then added up all incomes reported by men. then compared them. so the total of all women in the US regardless of job title vs the total of all men in the US regardless of job title.
now that 93% you cite. they compare all women vs comprable title men averaged in each title. no verification of responsibilities or consideration to length of position.
now, the last study i saw that did based on company reported data based on company allocated title ( not employee reported title ) for companies with over 5k employees and locale of work. they did not have data for length of employment.
what they found was in non-metropolitan areas, women made an average of 98% as men, but could not quantify length of employment. they also found that women missed on average 30% more work than men.
in metropolitan areas, it got much worse. in metropolitan areas they found that women made an average of 14% more than men given company title. and it went as high as 121% in atlanta georgia.
so in non-metropolitan areas women make 2% less than men, but miss almost 1/3 more work than men.
in metropolitan areas, women make an average of 14% more than men, and still miss the average 1/3 work more than men.
so the problem creating this "wage gap" depends on your perspective.
1) large companies mostly in metropolitan areas are paying women more than men.
2) small companies mostly in rural areas are paying women slightly less than men.
3) women miss an average of 1/3 the time men do. they found a national average of men missed 3.5 weeks a year, and women missed 4.6 weeks.
now, is paying someone who is at work less deserve to be paid a lower wage to compensate? under a merit system, the answer is yes. under an equality system if they are not paid an equivalent less wage, it creates inequity. under a biased system they should get paid the same numerical base wage garnering them a higher "realized" wage.
No, they do not. Not the academic studies I've seen.TheWesDude said:
When you go "the latest studies" it's useful to actually cite the damn studies you're referring too so people can check what you're saying. You're just popping up numbers out of thin air and we're supposed to believe you, without being able to critique method? Fuck no.
Not to mention that you're now bypassing discrimination at various different stages, including promotion and getting hired in the first place.
Ilosar
Vault Fossil
Men's rights activism is mostly about divorce ruling, child separation, protection from violent women (which is pretty rare). Real issues to be sure, but...
Women's right is about wage equality, job representation, protection from violent men (more common), rape, in the past it was about something as basic as the right to vote, ect.
I'm not saying that men's right should no exist. Yes it sucks that women usually get prefered in divorce rulings and child separation for sure. But the ''screw women'' whiny attitude that somtimes come with it is nothing short of pathetic. Men have it easy compared to women planetwide. The gap is lesser in most Western nations, but it still exists, and not in women's favor.
Women's right is about wage equality, job representation, protection from violent men (more common), rape, in the past it was about something as basic as the right to vote, ect.
I'm not saying that men's right should no exist. Yes it sucks that women usually get prefered in divorce rulings and child separation for sure. But the ''screw women'' whiny attitude that somtimes come with it is nothing short of pathetic. Men have it easy compared to women planetwide. The gap is lesser in most Western nations, but it still exists, and not in women's favor.
Yo,
Citing the source of peer-reviewed academic studies is mandatory before we even begin the 'gender-wage gap' conversation.
Also, try to cite sources that control for job title, education, time off, marital status, etc.
But as the previous guy said, at least cite your damn sources. You're as terrible as the feminists at my liberal-arts university who would post the '79 cents on the dollar' statistic without any reference/citation/source to back it up.
Thanks much,
Andrew
Citing the source of peer-reviewed academic studies is mandatory before we even begin the 'gender-wage gap' conversation.
Also, try to cite sources that control for job title, education, time off, marital status, etc.
But as the previous guy said, at least cite your damn sources. You're as terrible as the feminists at my liberal-arts university who would post the '79 cents on the dollar' statistic without any reference/citation/source to back it up.
Thanks much,
Andrew
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
yellow, that 79 cents on the dollar is very accurate. its just biased as hell.
how they got that number was by adding all IRS reports based on gender.
they added up all male tax returns, and then added up all women returns.
they found that women in the US earned 79% as much as men collectively as an absolute value.
as long as you accept their methodology, then that 79% is accurate. if you have a problem with their methodology, then you are misogynist and a woman-hater and sexist.
especially once you start look studies that incorporate more factors such as title, locality, company size, time off/hours worked, and such... that number changes quite drastically upward very quickly. even above 100% ( pay equality ).
how they got that number was by adding all IRS reports based on gender.
they added up all male tax returns, and then added up all women returns.
they found that women in the US earned 79% as much as men collectively as an absolute value.
as long as you accept their methodology, then that 79% is accurate. if you have a problem with their methodology, then you are misogynist and a woman-hater and sexist.
especially once you start look studies that incorporate more factors such as title, locality, company size, time off/hours worked, and such... that number changes quite drastically upward very quickly. even above 100% ( pay equality ).
Ilosar said:
Female on male domestic abuse is rarely reported. There's a good chance that it's just as common, if not more so, than male on female abuse.
Stop being sexist.
Accurate, in my experience. I've been kicked in the gut, aggressively punched in the balls, and slapped hard enough to break my glasses. But I push once, not even hard enough to knock her off balance, and I'm suddenly a monster no longer welcome in my own homeCourier said:
Seconded. I once got a pot of hot peas flung in my face (followed by the pot itself).
It'd been funny if my eyebrow didn't get split and those goddamn peas weren't EVERYWHERE in the house for days.
It'd been funny if my eyebrow didn't get split and those goddamn peas weren't EVERYWHERE in the house for days.
I was "playfully" surprise-bitten in my shoulder by some goth chick at some party, back when I bothered with parties. My shoulder flaked skin for a week :'I
zegh8578 said:
Terrible. Absolutely terrible.
Jebus, what did you do to warrant that treatment? And you, Formerk? Context, prospective gentlemen.