Military service

[DJ Slamák]

You know, King of Creation, I should have realised this sooner, but it's interesting how SickBastard said something that can be applied to any army in general and you related it exclusively to the US army. (That might also be what megatron was getting at, but if so, I'm pretty dense. )

Relax, man. It's all in your head.

 

[Ugly John]

Hey Elissar, can i have your crowbar when your gone playing in the sand?

 

[Elissar]

Sure can UJ.

 

[Paladin Solo]

I envy those in the military right now. I can't legally join for another year but I won't join until I turn 18 because I need a high school diploma and I want it anyhow. For now, all I can do is go out playing paintball with my buddies and pretending I am killing terrorists in a far away land. *Sighs*

 

[The Couch Guy]

Since I'm so new around here, I figure why not get involved in a few arguements, run my name through the mud before I have a chance to settle down....

First off, I'm so friggin' tired on the mentality that joining a volunteer army equates to being a gun-loving-I-wanna-kill-people hilly-billy retard. The fact is, the armed services produces (US statistics, here) more college graduates then private high schools combined. For most people who don't come from well-to-do families and don't fit in any minority categories (that isn't a dig against minorities, by the way - you guys work just as much, if not more, then us plain ol' vanilla white folk), its the only way to pay for college. Besides, the armed forces is the best place to go to learn important life lessons like discipline, planning, and plain old hard work. Oh yeah, and they also provide the basic reason for forming a country in the first place - defense against outside forces.
Give 'em their justly-deserved credit.

Secondly, to rebuke some facts above...
England is not responsible for the birth of the US. The fact is, if Britain hadn't taken that territory, another European country would have, most likely the French or the Spanish. Both of them also lost their colonies in the Americas due to revolutions by the colonists. No matter what, who ever grabbed America was gonna lose it. You can't hold an empire across the kind of distance. The British continued to try, and lost all their holding through out the last two centuries. Along with the French and the Spanish.

Russia liberated eastern Europe in WWII, but would have lost if the other Allied forces had not opened up the second front, based largely on American planning, equipment, and soldiers. Western European countries required US help because they were locked out of their primary sources for raw materials (it was this very problem that lead to the development of NATO). [I also know that Canada did its part in both World Wars. As a matter of fact, it was probably the Canadians that won WWI. They had a rather small volunteer army, but because of its size, it was very well trained. My hat is off to those guys, too.]

Thirdly, before you pro-military Western European types start fueling up your flames - everyone did their part in WWII. England captured most of Europe, wrecking German morale over its best army commander. They also captured the V2 rocket bases that were striking London, and were behind the liberation of Paris. But you can't forget the French Unerground, either. Despite the failure of the Maginot Line (which simply couldn't take into consideration the amount of of research and development the Third Reich was putting into mechanized infrantry), they fought throughout the entire occupation, and discovered valuable intelligence that paved the way for the D-Day invasion, and cost more French lives then they will admit to (the documentation is still sealed under orders of National Security by French, British and American governments). They kicked ass, too.

But I would be cutting it short if I didn't talk about what Eastern Europe did. Poland military intelligence was responsible for the Engima break-through. Russia put up one of the bloodiest fights ever seen in any war, and did not give up. Underground forces in Chechoslavokia, Austria, Germany, and other countries led to the liberation of the some of the greatest scientific minds of this century (those minds helped with both the creation of the atomic bomb and US and Russian space travel).
Even German soldiers fought and died with a bravery unseen since the fall of the Inca empire.

All in all, the military of any country that doesn't forcably put civilians in the line of fire is something to be damn proud of.

And for people who think its alright to hate the military for recent events...

It was well known that Japan would go after the Pacific Islands. They invaded China 10 years before Pearl Harbor. Their need for resources was evident. Most military minds were considering the war they knew was coming on those islands. Hence the creation of both aircraft carriers and the Marines. Also, the idea of isolationism, that "We need to take of our own problems first", gave Hitler the chance to build up the military he needed to start WWII. When you bury your head in the sand and say that the world can take care of itself, you are ignoring the fact that the world can very well drop itself in your own backyard. It's childish escapism, and nothing else. You cannot ignore the fact that there are powers in this world that would like nothing better to erase you, yes, personally you, from the face of this Earth. When you do, when you find that kind of false security, you end up with 3000 dead in a destroyed building complex in New York.

I understand you may be against the idea of killing people. Personally, I'd like nothing better than to agree with you. I don't think alot of people would disagree. But I don't believe that simply waiting in a cloudy haze that looks like peace is the answer. The people that protect us from outside threats deserve more than photo-shopped images and rally cries against them. We are alive because of them.
Try to remember that.

 

[Hose]

Yes we are alive thanks to them, but we could also have died thanks to them. I am grateful for everything that US, British, Polish and other soldiers done to my country, and the whole europe. But Hitler also had his army. They were also soldiers, and if there weren't so many of them the WW2 wouldn't even started.

I undesrstand that many of you want go to the army, play with a gun, shoot some enemies and other army stuff. But life isn't a game, people die for real. Still want to play? Good, but stay away from my playground.

Still hate the US Army? Cause you more than likely wouldn't even be alive today if it weren't for the actions of the US Armed Forces.

I haven't hate, and I don't hate the US army. I will hate the US army only when they start the World War 3. Now the US is the world peacemaker, but that could change someday, due to some kind of a sick president there could be in the future.

And I'm not against joining the army, but I don't want to join. The army should be a place for people who really want join. The army should be smaller but well trained and equipped. Not just a walking flesh, a shield for military vehicles, like it was in Russia during the WW2, when Stalin first send thousands of people and later the tanks and cannons.

 

[Elissar]

I undesrstand that many of you want go to the army, play with a gun, shoot some enemies and other army stuff. But life isn't a game, people die for real.

You don't think that a soldier understands that his job is real? That lives are at stake? 2 of my closest friends are in Iraq right now, And I'm prepping to go there myself soon. Every day I look to see if anyone is injured or killed, praying that any names i see i don't recognisee.

Still want to play? Good, but stay away from my playground.

Not a damn one of us over there "playing games" son. Not a damn one of us.

You can keep your opinions, but unless your willing to actually go over there yourself and risk your own life. You'd probally be best not calling what soldiers do as "playing games".

And I'm not against joining the army, but I don't want to join. The army should be a place for people who really want join. The army should be smaller but well trained and equipped.

Your right, as far as i'm concerned any man who doesn't want to be in an army has no right to be there and should get the hell out. If they don't want to be there, then I SURE AS HELL don't want them there.

As for the army being smaller, as it stands right now we NEED more soldiers (US Army), Because of a lack of Soldiers we are forced to deploy National Guard units who are Neither as well trained nor as well equipped as they need to be. Calling for a smaller US Army is just ridiculous.


Elissar - SPC, US ARMY Avation
[/i]

 

[megatron]

Thanks for letting Germany even start taking land with your appeasement policy. Thanks for opening the door for us to become the most powerful nation in the world.

meh. Well the Allies kind of screwed Germany in the first place with the Treaty of Versailles after WW1 and the 'treaty' took away a bunch of land off the Germans as well as fucking up there shit, dig it? Also you could say that was Hitler's 'fault'. Also, where was America during all this?

You could also argue that just because you're THE MOST POWERFUL NATION IN THE UNIVERSE it isn't exactly great, eh? Like one or two planes or a power-station failing and most of your citizens go ape-shit. Meanwhile this stuff happens often in other countries, but nobody seems to care.

I suppose you could giggle and stuff about how America is so great, but you're still human? Dig it plz.

China>America

 

[Hose]

Sorry Elissar, I didn't want to offend you. I understand that soldiers in Iraq are risking their butts to safe the world peace iraqian people peace and my peace. And I'm really grateful.

I wasn't talking about the US army but about army in general.

And there are some people who really want join the army to have some fun. They consider fighting / killing people like an amusement. You're maybe different, and you're friends maybe different, but not everyone is.

And sorry one more time. This is my opinion. You can call me a freak but thats the way it is, where I live.

 

[Wooz]

Welsh wrote:

Wooz69 wrote:
You forgot to add the "fuck it even if they try to draft me" option


Done.

My most sincere thanks.

And back to topic.

King of creation wrote:

Still hate the US Army? Cause you more than likely wouldn't even be alive today if it weren't for the actions of the US Armed Forces

What?
As Slam said, the country SickBastard and I currently haunt was "Liberated" by the Soviet Union. "Liberated".

Actually, the US armed forces were a hair away from nuking warsaw in 1962. Hoo yeah. Thanks for not nuking us!

Don't take it personally, I just despise every single army, for it is the means to murder people to ensure the greater glory and stability of some bloody state.
Don't look at me like that, I've been through the guerrilla in Chiapas and live in a country that has been through more wars you'd possibly want. I've seen what wars do to people's heads, don't come up with the whole "noble/holy/righteous war" aspect, because it's full of shit.

If you want to be in the army, kill people, get your brain washed, fine. Go ahead. Just don't force people who don't want to go to take a part in it.

 

[Fromage]

There is a big difference between hating an army and hating the soldiers in that army.

I hate the war, not the warrior.

The simple fact is, the world would be a better place if everyone just stopped killing each other. I know that it's not going to happen overnight--I'm convinced, in fact, that it's not going to happen at all--but that doesn't mean that I want to pick up a gun to go kill people. Even though I understand that there are people out there that want to kill me, it seems much more important to me to try and live my life well, than simply to live.

So, I'll never join an army; and if I had my way, none of my tax dollars would go toward paying for one--but I still have great respect for the people that do become soldiers. I still don't think they're doing the right thing--in fact I truly believe that to kill in war is as much murder as killing ever is--but I do know that it takes a lot of courage to do what they do, and that they certainly can have good intentions in mind.

P.S. Thank you, The Couch Guy, for a non-polemic view of the issues at hand here.

P.P.S. I'd just like to quickly re-emphasize a point the aforementioned TCG made fleetingly in his post--while Europe appeased Hitler, America ignored him. It's really not fair to condemn their actions when our government at the time was not even asked to make the hard decisions that England and the other European powers were forced to. Most importantly, however, is that we did not participate in World War Two in order to force the rest of the world into "owing us one" at least, I hope we didn't. All countries had grave sacrifices to make before that war was over, and it would be a shame if so many of our fathers and grandfathers gave up their lives simply to have their children wave it in the face of our allies half a century later.

 

[Paladin Solo]

First off, the Marines were around since the American Revolution, the American marines that is, I'm not to sure about the Brits or any other. We had aircraft carriers since late WW1 didn't we. We didn't create them as preperation for the Japanese attacks if that's what you were implying to Cough Guy. Second, the Treaty of Versailles was protested by the Americans because it sought out to destroy Germany. We knew where this would lead to. I'm not sure exactly what we did other than protest however. Secondly, or thirdly for those of you who are paying attention, we tried to remain "officially" neutral during the early years of WW2, but everyone knows we supplied our allies with weapons, food, supplies, tanks, ships, etc... maybe even a few men covertly. So we weren't ignoring Hitler. And the reason there is that feeling of debt to America from the world is because we sacraficed much to win that war, not just for our cause, but for others as well. I don't feel that all of the world still owes us, I just wish sometimes they would stop and think before they begin to bash and flame us. Of course protesting is ok, but not for a noble, honest cause. Sure, we went to Iraq largely, for the oil, but we helped many people. I gaurentee those who are protesting this decision, wouldn't be protesting if it was them. Including some Americans. Hell, if it was America in Iraq's situation, and let's say, Australia was the world super-power, I would want them to come and free us, if they were of course a country that has and likes democracy.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The Royal Marines were founded around 1664, and the Dutch Marines roughly round the same time IIRC.

I think my biggest regret, looking back at the last 20 years, was that I didn't join up. I have the upmost respect for those in service to, or have served their country.

As to the people who knock the military or only see the uniform and not the person wearing it I think Kipling summed it up best in Tommy.

 

[Mohrg]

I am enlisted in the United States Marine Corps as a 0311(Infantry) and I am set to leave 26th Jan 2003(See location). I enlisted for one reason and one reason only...to kill because I am told too...

On a serious side(Well don't rule out combat situations and what I may have to do because I will be in Iraq in Sept 04 with the 2nd Marine Div.) I've always wanted the Eagle Globe and Anchor for as long as I can remember. I have no family in the Marine Corps and I had a few in the Army so it has nothing to do with family tradition. I joined the Marine Corps because I have always wanted to be infantry and from where I come from you don't want to be in the Army as a combat soldier.... Numbers, Numbers, NUMBERS!

Oorah!
Semper Fi

Mohrg

 

[El*Diablo]

The US did win most of WW2 itself but, lets not forget the first army into berlin....Russia. They russians crippled the panzer divisons that were attacking them and drove the germans out of their homeland. Then they drove hard towards berlin defeating everything the germans threw infront of them and eventually reached berlin. The russians are also the reason we never found hitlers body, they took it and hid it from us...thos damn commies

 

[Sander]

The russians are also the reason we never found hitlers body, they took it and hid it from us...thos damn commies

Yeah....or maybe not. Stupid devil, don't say stuff unless you know the facts. I've seen documentaries enough about them, and I've seen Russian doctors who say that they were called to inspect a body to see if it was Hitler or not, but never anything about actually finding him.

So we weren't ignoring Hitler

Yes you were. At least until the war began. And that was what they were talking about. YOu don't actually think that the English were appeasing DURING the war, do you?

And the reason there is that feeling of debt to America from the world

Ehh....what feeling of debt? I have yet to meet the first non-American who thinks that way.

I gaurentee those who are protesting this decision, wouldn't be protesting if it was them

STOP DICTATING MY BLOODY THOUGHTS!!!!!!

Of course protesting is ok, but not for a noble, honest cause.

And who decides what cause is noble and what cause isn't? It's all arbitrary.



One thing I hate about any military is that it is there. I don't dislike people in it, I respect the fact that they want to fight for their ideals and that they want to fight for freedom and what not, butI personally detest it. WHich would be why if they draft me, I'd probably be a conscientious objector.

Also, I saw a documentary about US navy seals a while back. It scared me. All I heard those guys say was "We are here to kill, we want to kill, we like killing." That was fucked up. Note that I'm not saying that everyone in the military is like that, though.

 

[welsh]

Well Sander, I think that there is quite a bit of indoctrination on the idea of desensitising individuals so that they can kill easily. A person with moral qualms is less likely to shoot down a man, than one who doesn't, or is actually there to kill.

Your point that you "respect people who want to fight for their ideals..." and then you detest that is a bit contradictory.

Mohrg- keep your head down bud. I had high school buddy, a couple years older than me, that joined right out of highschool. He was in the Marine MEU that got sent to Lebandon by Reagan in the 80s, and was also there when they drove a truck bomb into the airport terminal.

He survived, but most of his friends didn't and he had the rather tragic job of helping dig out the bodies. He was also 17 or 18 when he cut down his first person with an M-60. That kind of stuff doesn't always sit well in a person's conscience. He was never the same after he came back.

And I think that's one of the things about joining the service or the infantry. Supposedly they did a survay of the guys landing in Normandy and found many are willing to die for their country but less than half of those were willing to kill for it.

I thought about the military a few time, even got offered a posting as an attorney in the Navy at one point. But one thought that I could never really take to was that I might kill someone because my government tells me to, someone I don't know who might believe he's doing to the right thing and with whom I have no other grievance. While I will accept that wearing the uniform may change the definition of what I did, killing a person, it would not necessarily absolve me of the moral responsibility of taking a life.

There is a lot to like about the military life, but also a lot you should question before going in.

 

[victor]

I think many youngsters are still fooled by the uniform. Didn't The Great War (no, the real one) teach us anything? When the soldiers left, it was said it would be a short, refreshing war ("La guerre fraîche et joyeuse", is what they said in France, for you who understand it). They also stated it would only last a matter of weeks, but we all know it didn't. At first, battles were fought on open land, and in fields. Many died, but that was it. Then the Industrial war kicked in. Trenches were dug, since armies were equally matched on the battlefield. New, deadlier weapons were discovered, such as aeroplanes, tanks and above all, gas (which is still used today, even the lethal versions).

I remember when I was in High school two years ago (a French school that is), we were studying WW1. They showed us pictures of the crippled from the war, both from gas and bullet wounds. A man had no jaw left. Another veteran had one half of his face torn off. Others had lost all of their limbs. Sure, this war was very brutal and amongst the bloodiest in the history of Mankind, but still , it is horribly overlooked.

If you're old enough, and you can stand to see horrible things (which you should if you intend to join the army), go to www.google.com and research "WW1 corpses". That's what I did. And you can try www.google.fr and research "gueules cassées". Nevermind the language, it's the pictures that count.


Now, you'll just be saying "Oh, this happened a hundred years ago, such things don't happen today". Well they do. If you want proof, go back to www.google.com and check out pictures from, say, the war in Somalia, or maybe the victims from Hiroshima.

*edit* I want to warn you that these pictures are horrible. Don't watch them if you can't stand to see mutilated corpses. I'm not being sarcastic. Watch them ONLY if you're not sensitive.



Study these pictures for an hour or two, and then decide whether you want to join the army or not. I'm just saying this so that you know, at least, what you're going to see.

Sure, these things happen well enough on their own, but wars only make it worse. Much worse. Isn't there a way to serve your country without having to watch a man trying to hold his brains in after having been shot in the head? As long as there are people who want to join the army, these things will continue.

 

[DarkCorp]

Well I would love to join the Airforce if I could but due to a disability, I cannot.

Now to the discussion at hand. Sure eveyone wants a Utopia but it isn't going to happen. Two world wars should have woken up everyone.

Second, I think most soldiers already know that bullet wounds are not neat little holes like hollywood makes it to be, its common sense. If a 5.56mm object hits you going at extremely high speeds in the jaw, most likely it will be all or partly ripped off .

Third, the U.S. has done some shady stuff but think about it. I wonder if U.S. citizens would love to wait in mile long gas lines because a foreign country holds us hostage with oil? Or how safe we would feel if every joe nation out there could send an ICBM with a nuke to vaporize us?

The sad fact is every country is going to do what it can to maintain the status quo. The Romans, the Spanish, the French, the English, the Germans, getting the point? The day a country goes hippy is the day that country gets conquered by a foreign power.

 

[Pipboy2000]

Welsh, you're asking for my honest opinion.

Fuck the army for all I care. I'm running to Canada if they have a draft. I'm not willing to fight for my country. I don't see the point of me risking my life for hopeless causes that some guy probably started by saying "Fuckin' Americans" (i know thats not how it happened... you know what I'm getting at...)

I love America, and I wouldn't move. But, goddamn, whenever somebody thinks of the U.S., the idiot George Dubayah Bush and the army come into play... Ugg...


I've given my two cents on the topic, good luck understanding it.