Military service

[Paladin Solo]

Oh, please tell me you didn't just say that. Seriously. "Oh, the worldturned out ok, so why are you bitching?"
Because we can, because we can look back and say "This would havebeen better.

Right, the world would've have been much better with the Japanese, Germans (Nazi Germany), and/or Soviets ruling it. We should've let the Japanese just take us over. We should've let the Germans occupy your country, or the Soviets expand their Iron Curtian. I strongly disagree. For one, there is no real ruler of the world, for two, we aren't trying to expand our empire. So how is the world worse off? True, we do want the expansion of democracy, but hell, not the expansion of fascism or some other despotic government. I don't complain when people are allowed to live the way they should live, freely. Of course, then you would argue, we should've taken this action instead of what we did. Well, Sander, since you seem to be an expert at global politics and military planning, please tell us what actions we should've done instead and how they would've turned out. But of course, you can't be certain of the consequences, whether good or bad, of those choices can you?

 

[Ancient Oldie]

That said, though, your remark was insulting. Please show a little respect for other nationalities and people. Your remark was very clearly picked to insult Sander (and it was a good pick, I must say, because the remark is both insulting ánd true, it becomes double as insulting). Please; show a little respect

"If there's two things I can't stand in this world, it's people that are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch!!!" - Austin Powers 3

I just love that line. But seriously bud, I don't know what's the big deal. All of a sudden we can't make a passing historical comment that was both true and unoffensive, especially when the Germans did crush the Russians in the initial days of Barbarrossa, and yet you can, with tongue in cheeck, say that anti-american comments are alright??

Plus I might've missed the posts you're referring to.

Ha, so you admit there's more than one post!

Bah... you damn Euros, with your sophistry, weed, and bad, baaad porn, piss me off.

Actually, the Cold war was called "cold" because there was no full-scale war between the US and the USSR. Anyways, the only empire that tried to invade the other empire's allies was the US and it's failure in the pigs bay, which lead to the rocket crisis in 1962.

Not exactly. The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation in which Cuban refugees were armed and trained to take back Cuba. Although there were some Americans involved with the invasion, it was primarily composed of Cuban nationals. The operation went FUBAR and American involvement, primarily because of recovered evidence and bungled diplomacy, was revealed to the world. But there were many of these types of operations happening on both sides at the time, it was just that none of them went as awry as the Bay of Pigs.

As for the cuban missile crisis, I would say that american missiles in Turkey was the root cause of that incident.

And finally, I wouldn't mind joining the Armed Forces. It's just that there are other things that I want to do with my life instead, although, if it was part of my citizenship, I wouldn't mind. I do believe that for us to enjoy the fruits of our society, we should be more than willing to die for it. If you think that you're country is engaged in policies of evil, you should either 1) try you're hardest to stop it, 2) join the armed forces and do its bidding, or 3) leave and not come back.

It's why I have more respect for the Vietnam war protester's of the 60's than the whiny, hemp-necklace wearing, wannabe-hippie bitches of today. You don't know how much it disgusts me when I turn on the TV and see one of them complaining that they were arrested and hit with rubber bullets and that that isn't right.

WTF do they think civil disobediance is??? A quick way to get laid by fine nacked activist chicks??? And what the hell is the point of nacked activism??? I'm thoroughly convinced it's some kind of neo-mating ritual.

 

[Brother None]

All of a sudden we can't make a passing historical comment that was both true and unoffensive, especially when the Germans did crush the Russians in the initial days of Barbarrossa, and yet you can, with tongue in cheeck, say that anti-american comments are alright??

I never said it's not ok for Paladin Solo to tell people who're flaming America off.

But it's clearly a matter of distinction. The original post was very clearly aimed at Sander directly. Basically, Gruug was just telling Sander he thinks he's arrogant, that's not the same as saying "Americans this" or "Americans that", unless you say "You Americans are always so stupid"

Ha, so you admit there's more than one post!

I do?

Bah... you damn Euros, with your sophistry, weed, and bad, baaad porn, piss me off.

Belgian porn is better

 

[Ancient Oldie]

All of a sudden we can't make a passing historical comment that was both true and unoffensive, especially when the Germans did crush the Russians in the initial days of Barbarrossa, and yet you can, with tongue in cheeck, say that anti-american comments are alright??

I never said it's not ok for Paladin Solo to tell people who're flaming America off.

But it's clearly a matter of distinction. The original post was very clearly aimed at Sander directly. Basically, Gruug was just telling Sander he thinks he's arrogant, that's not the same as saying "Americans this" or "Americans that", unless you say "You Americans are always so stupid"

Huh? I was talking about Barbarrossa. Everyone already knows that the Dutch are arrogant.

 

[Wooz]

Ancient Oldie wrote:

Not exactly. The Bay of Pigs was a CIA operation in which Cuban refugees were armed and trained to take back Cuba. Although there were some Americans involved with the invasion, it was primarily composed of Cuban nationals. The operation went FUBAR and American involvement, primarily because of recovered evidence and bungled diplomacy, was revealed to the world. But there were many of these types of operations happening on both sides at the time, it was just that none of them went as awry as the Bay of Pigs.

Cuban nationalists trained by the CIA, anyhow. And it was the only "big" scale-invasion operation targeting to clearly occupy the country, that was carried out.
Although I know such incidents happened on both sides, even within the blocs themselves (invasion of the Czech republic by the Warsaw Pact troops)

Although the root cause of the 1962 cuban missile crisis may have been the ("pershing" i think) missiles in Turkey, the Cuban communist government looked forward to those missile bases, the only strategic "argument" they could advance in the event of a US invasion. They were pretty much what ensured the communist regime that they wouldn't be invaded by the Americans. The crisis eventually concluded with the withdrawal of the US and USSR missiles and the US agreement that Cuba wouldn't be invaded.

 

[Paladin Solo]

The Cubans told the US when we helped them fend off Spain, that if we didn't like the government in Cuba at any time, we could come in and change it to a better one. Well, the commies got Cuba, and the capitalists got po'ed. The rest is history. What I wonder now, is that, since the USSR is no longer existent, is that agreement void?

 

[Brother None]

that if we didn't like the government in Cuba at any time, we could come in and change it to a better one.

That's kind of funny, because all deals you make with a government are annulled when said government is disbanded. If that weren't true, all former commie sattelites would still have obey Russia.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Good point. But look at the deal, if the government is changed to something unfavorable to the U.S., or if the current one was bad enough for the U.S., than by rights, we can go there to change it better for our liking. It's a deal they made, it's a deal they would have to keep if we were to go in there, if we ever decided to. So then by rights, if Russia did make a similiar or exact deal like Cuba did with us, then they can do the same. But I suppose it's a two-sided argument.

 

[Ozrat]

King, I go away for three weeks and you're back to your old tricks.

And when I say old tricks, I mean stupidity.

if the government is changed to something unfavorable to the U.S., than by rights, we can go there to change it better for our liking

Say whaaaaaaaaaa?

By rights? Oh really? Care to show me where these rights are listed?

Have you ever noticed something in the U.S. Constitution that tells us if the American citizens are fed up, they have the right to bear arms and revolt against the system? Oh wait, of course not, because you want anything and anybody that disagrees with blind patriotism locked away anyways.

Nice double standards.

 

[Wooz]

the government is changed to something unfavorable to the U.S., than by rights, we can go there to change it better for our liking

No you can't.

When the government collapses, the treaties/deals can be cancelled, even if they were "supposed to" last longer. The deal is made by the government, not by the abstract country entity. Besides, there was a R E V O L U T I O N in Cuba, which means they overthrew the government, and all of its subsequent responsabilities.

In any case, check your history manual on the causes of the Cuban revolution, other than the geostrategic struggle between the US and the USSR.

 

[Paladin Solo]

--Edited by Solo--



Forget it. I'll just agree with you all the time now or say nothing. In this specific topic that is.

 

[Brother None]

Ozrat, no it doesn't say that in our Constitution, but it did say that as a part of the deal with Cuba and the U.S. And the revolution apparently is not to the Cubans liking. They revolt, and the try and escape. When I said by rights, that is because they said we could, like I said, it goes both ways.

1. The US Constitution clearly states that the citizens have the right to bear arms to fight government opression. It's the whole original point of the right to bear arms.

2. The former Cuban government said you could. This one doesn't.

3. The revolution is not compeltely to their liking, but Cuba has it a lot better than some surrounding countries in a lot of ways, and they're aware of this.

 

[Ozrat]

King, test yourself and be prepared to be scared of yourself:

Constitution Examination

See how much you don't know now?

Oh, and don't wuss out of the debate. We're only trying to help you understand the reality better here.

 

[Ancient Oldie]

In all fairness, I think PS was referring to the Platt Amendment, which was implemented after the Spansh-American war and more or less stated that the US could intervene in Cuba's affairs any time that circumstances dictated.

Castro got around that by bullshitting the US into believing that after he overthrew Bautista's dictatorship, they would have democratic elections. Obviously they didn't and Castro sided with the Soviets instead, which ruled out any future US led invasion.

Hence the Bay of Pigs fiasco...

 

[Paladin Solo]

Ozrat, it's not that I am wussing out. What's the point if I am the only person trying to back my POV? I saw no end to it, so I says, forget it, you win. Next topic.

 

[Ancient Oldie]

As for the US invading Cuba now, it won't happen. Cuba will only be free when Castro is dead. Castro is a master of propaganda and international politics. He has played the US for the past 50 years and has outlived and outruled several US presidents. He knows that with the current situation now, it would be impossible for a US invasion, and in fact has used the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan to tighten his grip on the Cuban people through his propaganda and violence.

Not to mention that he is partly to blame for the current marxism found in Venezuala through Ugo Chavez and through other groups found throughout Latin America. Castro is far from contained, as the US government would like us to believe. On the contrary, his revolucion is actually on a rise again.

Ozrat, it's not that I am wussing out. What's the point if I am the only person trying to back my POV? I saw no end to it, so I says, forget it, you win. Next topic.

Sounds like wussing out to me.

 

[Paladin Solo]

Wussing out? I got nothing further to say! I'm done!

 

[Mohrg]

Castro isn't all that bad a guy...

I love he!

Danny Pablo Hector Gonzalez III

 

[Ancient Oldie]

Yay!!!

 

[Sander]

Right, the world would've have been much better with the Japanese, Germans (Nazi Germany), and/or Soviets ruling it. We should've let the Japanese just take us over. We should've let the Germans occupy your country, or the Soviets expand their Iron Curtian.

That's not what I was saying, PS, and you know it. I was saying that things could've been done differently, but with the same results. I wasn't saying you should've been isolationist pacifist silly people.

Well, Sander, since you seem to be an expert at global politics and military planning, please tell us what actions we should've done instead and how they would've turned out. But of course, you can't be certain of the consequences, whether good or bad, of those choices can you?

Of course I can't! That's the entire point of debating, PS, to argue that your position is better/correct/whatever, and to find out what the counter-points could be and how other people feel. Besides that, I've already argued many times on different subjects what other actions could've been for many situations.