More European hands-on previews

[TheWesDude]

It's interesting that over at the BS forums, all the negative reviews are because "THE GAME'S NOT DONE YET!!!"

They aren't done fixing the animations, they're working on the graphics.

Sigh.

the problem with this is that the game is done...

its getting released in under 3 months.

the game must be damn near gold ready or not.

considering its beth, i would say not. by a long shot

 

[Brother None]

the game must be damn near gold ready or not.

Pretty near, yeah, 1.5-2 months away, probably. Just a guess, tho'

They won't be able to polish away any significant flaws like wonky animations in that time, nor any remaining problems with dialogue interfaces or whatever.

Seriously, the time of any criticism being able to function as feedback to Bethesda is long gone. They made sure that the populace didn't see the game before their criticism could no longer be relevant. Go figure.

PS: unless Fallout 3 is delayed, like Oblivion was, but they repeated oh so many times it wouldn't be.

 

[Jesuit]

Two months is a fairly significant amount of time. Considering that Todd said that all of the content was done, I don't see why optimizing animations and balance issues is out of the question. Though, I suspect they'll be concentrating on whatever they think is most lacking, I don't think they're gonna pay their animators to just sit there for two months. (unless they've already been sent on leave.) My guess is that any number of small changes are possible though not likely.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

It's interesting that over at the BS forums, all the negative reviews are because "THE GAME'S NOT DONE YET!!!"

Yeah but they still say the same thing about Oblivion and that game's been out for a few years now.

Seriously, the time of any criticism being able to function as feedback to Bethesda is long gone.

The time of any criticism being able to function as feedback to Bethesda never happened. It was either too early back when everyone originally kicked up a shit storm or Bethesda were going to make the game they wanted to anyway. Case in point "Morrowind with guns" which quite a few people said would be a bad thing in the first place was turned around into a selling point as "Oblivion with guns".

Two months is a fairly significant amount of time.

So is four years. If they couldn't get it right in that amount of time (which begs the question, what have the animators being doing all that time?), I doubt they'll get it right in the few months they've got before they send out the gold master and give it enough time to ship everywhere.

 

[Jesuit]

So is four years.

Fair enough but you are making a lot of assumptions in your assessment. What we've seen at e3 doesn't exactly represent all of the work done so far. I don't know how Bethesda works so anything is possible, but typically work gets divided into features and added to the main build upon completion. It is possible, though unlikely, that they've been working on super spiffy animations for the last year and haven't added them to the main build yet. If Bethesda isn't stupid the feature set for the e3 build was decided on weeks if not months ago for QA purposes, so any number of things can be in progress right now. For example, see the drastic changes that happened during the last release of the total war series. They released two demos prior to shipping m2:tw and there were very significant overhauls in AI, animation, and game speed between the two demos and the final release.

Edit: the demos for the m2:tw were released roughly a month before the game was released.

 

[Ranne]

Jesuit, and you said you were in software development? If the game gets publicly released within the next 2 to 3 months, it means it'll get internally finished much sooner than that. With this time frame in mind, we're realistically looking at the final stages of beta testing (major bug fixing/very minor gameplay tweaking) and beginning of the DVD production phase. Considering that this is primarily an Xbox 360 title and that major console game changes rarely ever happen in such short time periods, I find any expectations of seeing seriously revamped game elements in the final product... er... unreasonably optimistic...

 

[Jesuit]

In fact, I do work in software development. The changes I said might be possible I described as small, and wouldn't qualify as "major", and though I have no direct experience with console development if you're trying to say that no changes get made in the last few months of (general) software development then I'd like to work where you work.

I'd also like to smoke the crack you smoke that makes you think you know how other companies operate and when the E3 build was compiled. Unless you work for Bethesda. Please do tell.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

any number of small changes are possible though not likely.

I don't know how Bethesda works so anything is possible

It is possible, though unlikely

Highly unlikely.

I don't know Bethesda so anything is possible. It's possible that they're a group of highly organised lizard men sent here from Draconis to scout out viable subjects for their breeding program. It is possible, though unlikely.

I work in lizard men analysis so I know what I'm talking about. Sure, I've got no direct experience dealing with actual lizard men but I'd like to know where you work because chances are, it's full of lizard people. Only I have the experience to tell for certain.

I'm now going to debate the merits of your employees being lizard men while hedging my bets.

It is possible, though unlikely, that they've been working on super spiffy animations for the last year and haven't added them to the main build yet.

Sure, if you ignore Bethesda's history of "Poor character animations" (all of which was commented on during Morrowind's development and release, Oblivion's development and release and now Fallout 3's development). And you have to ignore that Josh Jones, the animation lead in Fallout 3, also worked on Oblivion and Morrowind.

I don't know how Bethesda works

In fact you seemingly know very little about Bethesda.

 

[Jesuit]

I've already learned my lesson about arguing with you DarkUnderlord. So yes, you're right, Bethesda sucks and there's no way they've learned anything from past experiences, and it's utterly impossible that anything will be changed between now and the unspecified release date. Good job, you win again.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I've never argued that any improvements are certain, however writing them off as completely impossible is just as foolish as assuming that they're sure to happen.

 

[Ranne]

Please do tell.

I would, but I have better things in life than educating you on the subject of game production cycles. I hope you wouldn't mind if I let this one pass unanswered and leave whatever dreamy expectations you may have about F3 intact.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So yes, you're right, Bethesda sucks and there's no way they've learned anything from past experiences, and it's utterly impossible that anything will be changed between now and the unspecified release date.

When a company develops a history of poor and shoddy work in a certain field and over-hypes other elements which on release are found to be nothing like the hype, the company has a problem. With a track record of mediocrity, why should we give them the benefit of the doubt this time?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

As you even said yourself, it's unlikely. Throw in a track record and it becomes more unlikely. Throw in previews which at best, were prepared a few months ago and it becomes even more unlikely still. There's simply no evidence to suggest otherwise, other than blind speculation that "anything is possible".

 

[Jesuit]

I would, but I have better things in life than educating you on the subject of game production cycles. I hope you wouldn't mind if I let this one pass unanswered and leave whatever dreamy expectations you may have about F3 intact.

I must say, this response is a total fucking cop out. I know, dealing with unknown variables is tricky when you're trying to sound like a know it all, so no, I won't mind if you leave it at this. I have no dreamy expectations, only the intellectual honesty to admit that improvements are a possibility.

Honestly, given all the quests I've read about, I'm of the opinion that this game will very likely suck.. find landmines? Scout the super-duper mart? Vampire wannabes that settle for donated blood? what the hell is that? However, I still find saying that you *know* for certain that this is the final state of all things is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Jesuit]

As you even said yourself, it's unlikely. Throw in a track record and it becomes more unlikely. Throw in previews which at best, were prepared a few months ago and it becomes even more unlikely still. There's simply no evidence to suggest otherwise, other than blind speculation that "anything is possible".

I'll admit it is extremely unlikely. However, I've seen enough releases to know that on occasion companies turn themselves around and learn their lessons. That example of the total war series was no joke. Upon release of the demo all of their fans complained about the speed of the battle, in the final release that aspect was changed. My only real issue is this level of discussion that has assumed that what we saw at e3 will be the final game when there are a lot of unknown variables involved in that estimation.

Will it make you feel better if I said that were I a betting man I'd bet that Bethesda screws this up? Cus I am and I do.

 

[Cimmerian Nights]

I've already learned my lesson about arguing with you DarkUnderlord. So yes, you're right, Bethesda sucks and there's no way they've learned anything from past experiences, and it's utterly impossible that anything will be changed between now and the unspecified release date. Good job, you win again.

Don't forget about their penchant for overhyping and misrepresenting their games beyond the point of preposterousness either.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

(somebody with more ambition and free time than me is preparing one of these for FO3 no?)

 

[Neverwinter27]

So what if they do screw it up? Just play another game.

 

[Jesuit]

So what if they do screw it up? Just play another game.

That plan doesn't really work out if you've already purchased the game.

 

[Jabu]

Two months is a fairly significant amount of time. Considering that Todd said that all of the content was done, I don't see why optimizing animations and balance issues is out of the question.

Animation is a REAL (read: REAL!!!) labour intensive and time consuming process (if the end product is to look good). If pretty much all of their animations look out of wack at this point, I very much doubt they'll change them in any significant way. Unless, maybe, the demo shown was based on some older version of the game, without tweaked animations. With Beth you never know.

I do not understand why they didn't get their act together after Oblivion; the animation awkwardness is pretty much the only complaint present (if at all) in the typical Bethesda-hugging preview.

 

[Neverwinter27]

So what if they do screw it up? Just play another game.

That plan doesn't really work out if you've already purchased the game.

whos planning on purchasing the game? Or "Purchasing" the game. I really see no problem in other users pirating the game if they are already weary of Beth's meddling as evidenced throughout the many board comments in every preview the site has posted about it.

 

[Jesuit]

Animation is a REAL (read: REAL!!!) labour intensive and time consuming process (if the end product is to look good). If pretty much all of their animations look out of wack at this point, I very much doubt they'll change them in any significant way. Unless, maybe, the demo shown was based on some older version of the game, without tweaked animations. With Beth you never know.

As I've said previously you don't know how long they might have been working on improvements that weren't present in the e3 build. Given that poor animation was a rather large complaint about Oblivion it's not completely impossible that a) they've been working on improving the animations b) those improvements weren't complete in time to make it into the e3 build (which for all we know was compiled last year as there isn't anything drastic to seperate last year's e3 preview from this year's).

I will say again this is largely a pipe dream but logic such as yours isn't exactly a sure thing in this situation. At some point we're gonna have to admit that we just have to wait for the actual reviews.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I'll admit it is extremely unlikely. However, I've seen enough releases to know that on occasion companies turn themselves around and learn their lessons.

Do you admit the possibility that your co-workers might be lizard men? Will you be bringing this possibility to the attention of your Manager, even though you suspect it's unlikely that any of them are lizard men?

That example of the total war series was no joke. Upon release of the demo all of their fans complained about the speed of the battle, in the final release that aspect was changed.

Fallout 3 doesn't have a demo. If Bethesda really were interested in feedback, why isn't there one? Where's the concerted effort to seek feedback and adjust the game accordingly? With two demos, Creative Assembly at least showed a reasonable effort to seek feedback and fix some of the problems in the game, even though (at least according to some of the reviews) those problems still weren't fixed properly in the game's final release, citing problems with pathfinding, stupid AI and battle pacing... but the graphics were nice.

So what if they do screw it up? Just play another game.

We wouldn't be fans - and this wouldn't be a Fallout fan-site - if we didn't whinge about it.

I will say again this is largely a pipe dream but logic such as this doesn't exactly work in this situation. At some point we're gonna have to admit that we just have to wait for the actual reviews.

You might have a point if the poor shoddy screenshots that were released before Oblivion, showing piss-poor colouration of hands and faces, weren't dismissed out-right by Bethesda as being "only a pre-release build" only to turn around and have those exact same problems present in the final product.