Name reasons you thought Fallout 3 was better than New Vegas

The game is already there, there are PLENTY of locations with loot (a.k.a purpose in it) and there's more of them than the ones without any loot and just the environmental storytelling. I just like to take a break and take in the additional storytelling. If I wanted Fallout to be something else than a RPG game then I wouldn't of been here talking to any of you because I wouldn't appreciate the games at all.

That's exactly the reason players feel differently about Fallout 3 and New Vegas. There are plenty of locations with purpose in New Vegas but not all. Look at a game like Metroid. Exploration is consistently rewarded by giving you a new upgrade, some ammo, a save point, map hints, or boss fights when you check something new out. This is why people think Fallout 3's exploration 'feels' right. New Vegas on the other hand, is inconsistent. This feels less satisfying to players, regardless what they think is 'realistic'.
 
It IS just the numbers; that slot should be earned. Had FO3 been titled Fallout: DC, or FO:Rise Of The Enclave... That would have been fine by me; that would not occupy the #3 spot in the Fallout series, and could be any kind of game they wished—without enmity; just another game using the setting.

Placing Fallout 3 as one of the numbered games becomes even more redundant when the vast majority of the players didn't even know that there was a Fallout 1 + 2.
 
Placing Fallout 3 as one of the numbered games becomes even more redundant when the vast majority of the players didn't even know that there was a Fallout 1 + 2.
Just like some Bethesda devs didn't knew Fallout 1 and 2 existed. Ha!


I know i'm lying. Or am I?
 
Just like some Bethesda devs didn't knew Fallout 1 and 2 existed. Ha!
I know i'm lying. Or am I?

They actually asked many of the devs flat-out how long they had been playing Fallout—and most had been playing it for some time... But more than a few dodged the question, and one of them (that I remember) admitted to not having ever played it. Not all of the devs were asked, or ever commented on it—that I know of.
 
Dude, every Fallout game is a themepark. That's literally how an RPG is designed. Fallout 3 just isn't subtle about it.

In Arroyo you talk to some guys who teach you shit. Your buddy lost their dog Smoke and the well is broken. Hakunin needs you to kill some spore plants. All of this is set up for the player to go trigger. It's not like SimCity or something where shit happens without you. It just has to properly fit the theme.
This is not what I was describing. Sure, all (or most) RPGs have set-piece quests, but not all of them present them to the player like they were on a tour.

When I say, 'theme park ride', I mean the difference between a contrived "Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disney", and an experience that is just set in that fictional world.

The Pirates ride will try to include every major character and event in the film; and certainly a visit from Jack Sparrow...all neatly packaged as the PotC experience. Where the experience of a game just set in the same world could take place somewhere that the films never explored, and with none of the film's characters, and might only touch on Tortuga at the edge of the map.... and Jack might not even be there when the player visits. It wouldn't be setup like a themed tour.

What I mean by this is that FO3 is a non-stop presentation of "See? It's Fallouty! Isn't this cool? We're walking, we're walking... Now we see the super mutants... We're walking...". The world is setup like this, irrespective of plausibility; for sake of the show. There is no way that Little Lamplight could exist, and no way that the settlements shown could feed themselves; and cannibalism isn't an option with so few people.... and it's not important to the "It's Fallout!" tour experience; the 'run and shoot things, and rough it with dirty water, in a 50's aftermath' experience.

New Vegas at least showed people trying to farm, had plausible seeming locations, and had a landscape that was not laid out like a rail-car tour in each new area.

(Not to imply that there should only be plausible locations. ;) )... but...but..
The Brotherhood lived in filth—in the nation's Pentagon building. The Brotherhood is a paramilitary organization, and I cannot imagine them not having rounded up the new recruits and passed out toothbrushes and sponges to them, and set them loose on the walls, and floors. But that's clean... that's not the post apocalyptic trashed look.

FO3 suffers from the "it's always just over the next hill" principle of design, and everything plays to theme. New Vegas had at least some moderate distance between locations (from what I saw), and the locations did not come across like exhibits. New Vegas got flak for that too. :(

*Aside: Obviously casinos try to be exhibits. :mrgreen:
** There might be a better way to explain what I mean... This was a bit off the cuff.
 
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The Pirates of the Caribbean ride predates the movies and calling game design "gamey" is retarded. The two are facts. It is well known that Obsidian was charged with making at least two or three other locations visible from most of not all to give a sense of direction and density to the world. And unless you have an odd fixation for walking slowly while looking at a lot if nothing while more if that is happening (so Morrowind), that's just good level design. New Vegas has barely no random encounters or occurrences to supply during commutes and that's why the famous "don't use fast travel" of Bethesda games doesn't really work on it, added to non respawning items and enemies being the norm, besides some more things.

I for the life of me don't understand how you can both say that there are locations that have NO gameplay use whatsoever (basically all of Nellis, mccarran, searchlight, or the sharecropper farms) and also both claim that their presence is... Loot? That's not what "loot" means!

Especially when nitpicking bits of different arguably worse world building when, see above. World detail is important but not enough to affect the plain simple level design. Besides, Bethesda is often very damn detailed. It's just that it's usually focused towards making places and locations stand out in the little stories they tell (and the jokes they may hide) rather than serve to the greater narrative, which is also true for the greater scale design of the whole game as I've said over and over.

I'm not sure if I'm getting that across well, but describing something like it's stupid will often have the surprising effect of making it seem more stupid than it actually is.
 
ike, a person without any medical training shouldn't be able to say the same thing in the same situation as a trained surgeon, the threshold in NV simply is to define if your character is skillful enough for it or not, not the best way to handle it but still better.

THANK YOU.

ffs, can´t belive that something so obvious needs to be explained.

not the best way to handle it but still better.

Agree. Not the best way, but it is what it has.

All of those are not direct sequels

Many of them are exactly sequences.

=====================================================

Anyway , back to the topic.

The Mister Gutsy voice in Fallout 3 is better than in New Vegas.

Haha, I had forgotten that one. Can´t understand why they traded for something clearly inferior. At least they kept Mr. Handys butler's voice, which is pretty cool.

I don't recall any location in New Vegas being a waste in terms of exploring. When it had no loot to pick up, it had an explanation. Some of the times, someone got there before you and it had a little backstory for it.

There is. The sewers.
Or as I like to call, the sewers of Fallout 3. ... seriously, that's exactly what it is.
A lot of random foe coexisting side by side in a repetitive corridor, with a silly unique weapon at the end. It's Fallout 3 my friend.
 
calling game design "gamey" is retarded

Thank you Arnust. I would really be curious to see what the people who defend New Vegas's inferior level design would say if Obsidian had also made a carefully crafted 'lore friendly' theme park of their own. Instead of alien and mutant encounters, it would be Jackals and radscorpions. Everybody jerks off about Super Metroid's immersiveness (myself included) but never once have I heard the level design criticized for being unrealistic or someone say it would have been better with more empty areas and dead ends. These are just fanboys retroactively trying to explain away a game's flaw. Fallout 3 is criticized as being a 'theme park' not really because it's designed like one (most games are) but because its watered down and camped up. New Vegas (my favorite game of all time by the way) would have been massively improved with Fallout 3's excellent level design. People are just uncomfortable admitting this fact because the game is total ass in so many other areas. Especially in writing department.
 
People are just uncomfortable admitting this fact because the game is total ass in so many other areas. Especially in writing department.
Not really a fact Fallout 3's level design is better than New Vegas's. It's your opinion, not a fact. In fact, i absolutely loathe Fallout 3's level design and much prefer New Vegas's. Copy and pasted metros to begin with.

New Vegas is trying to have a wasteland that has been scavenged and combed through by countless people. So you are not going to find things everywhere, some of these locations will not have loot because of that. Fallout 3 on the other hand always has something, even though people have been scavenging for years and years on end. How do some of these places still have things? Specially when some of this stuff is in wide open places, clearly visible, and easy to grab.

Then you have location placement. Old Olney is right next to Republic of Dave. Why is Republic of Dave so close to Old Olney? Old Olney is filled with Deathclaws. Camp Littlelight, a place filled with children with subpar gear, near a vault filled with psychopathic, blood hungry Super Mutants. New Vegas, like Gizmo said, spread out locations more to not make them feel so close to each other.
 
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When a player spends time poking around an old gas station or searching a racetrack only to find no interesting story, no cool weapon, or no unique set of armor, it makes them think that some locations aren't necessary to investigate. This is why many people feel the exploration is superior in Fallout 3 because it never seems like the player's time is wasted for checking out a location.
What if the old gas station or racetrack has been scavenged to hell and back? Not to mention it's been more than 200 years since the bomb fell. If the old gas station or racetrack has been re-purposed as a safe spot of some sort for other people, then that would make sense for them to have something like a cool weapon and/or unique set of armor in it. But if they've been abandoned for 200 years (or less if the designers decided to give them some backstory), doesn't that immediately tells you that the place hasn't seen a human being in a long while? And because of that, doesn't that mean the location already has 'interesting story'?

Just because real life places can be boring and pointless, doesn't mean a game has to immitate this in order to preserve the illusion of reality.
Not every exploration has to be rewarded with loot, though? Sometimes, giving a context of some sort to the overall gameworld condition as you complete exploring some place is the reward in and of itself. In short: lore pieces, either told or shown, or both. For example, let's take East Pump Station in New Vegas. If we ignore the quest related to this location, and go by your standard, this is a pointless location because the only loot it offers that's worthwhile within this area is Fixin' Things magazine, which could be useful or useless based on what character you made, and even then the magazine can be found anywhere else (and even crafted if you have Lonesome Road DLC). It also doesn't have any cool weapon, nor any unique set of armor, so what's the point? Well, the point is, as it turns out, the place is responsible for filtering the water being pumped from Lake Las Vegas to NCR's Sharecropper Farm, so the NCR can grow their food. Not interesting enough for you? Well, that's because this is a game that's made by different developers who has different vision for what kind of game they wanted to make, and as it is their vision fits well with what I'm looking for in RPGs.

Fallout is not a simulation title, it's a role playing game.
In no way I'm trying to imply that Fallout is a simulation title and not an RPG. Also, you're saying this as if an RPG can't provide a simulation experience.


The 'premise' of Fallout is that it's a role playing game with a post-apocalyptic setting. You are confusing gameplay with story. It needs to fulfill its duty as a game before the other elements are even taken into account. If visited locations serve no purpose, then the software has failed. It might as well just be a virtual exploration simulator, a movie, or a book if you think its immediate purpose is to tell you a story. I personally think you need to do a little more research about video game development theory before you make any more foolish statements such as this. Not trying to be an asshole.
Lol, it's funny how you use this "game has to be a game first before telling any story!" argument to defend Fallout 3. Both Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 already achieved the near-perfect template of gameplay mechanics that fits so well with the established gameworld. And because of that, it managed to give unique experience beyond gameplay mechanics by showing us a world that's realistic within its context (take note that I'm not saying anything about real-life, here).

Dude, every Fallout game is a themepark. That's literally how an RPG is designed. Fallout 3 just isn't subtle about it.

In Arroyo you talk to some guys who teach you shit. Your buddy lost their dog Smoke and the well is broken. Hakunin needs you to kill some spore plants. All of this is set up for the player to go trigger. It's not like SimCity or something where shit happens without you. It just has to properly fit the theme.
Well, seems like it turns out that neither Fallout 1 and New Vegas is a themepark.

That's exactly the reason players feel differently about Fallout 3 and New Vegas. There are plenty of locations with purpose in New Vegas but not all. Look at a game like Metroid.
What's the example of places in New Vegas that doesn't have any purpose?

Exploration is consistently rewarded by giving you a new upgrade, some ammo, a save point, map hints, or boss fights when you check something new out. This is why people think Fallout 3's exploration 'feels' right. New Vegas on the other hand, is inconsistent. This feels less satisfying to players, regardless what they think is 'realistic'.
All places in New Vegas have at least one of those, + lore pieces that tells you a story within the context of the gameworld. Again, this is a game that's made by completely different developers with completely different design philosophy. And if anyone hasn't tell you this, those developers happened to be the ones who has some involvement with the games that predates Fallout 3.
 
And if anyone hasn't tell you this, those developers happened to be the ones who has some involvement with the games that predates Fallout 3.

Don't treat me like an asshole, dude. I'm a huge Josh Sawyer fan.

Am I the only person in this thread who actually designs games? Just curious, because I'm reading a lot of ignorant posts.

Writing and gameplay are separate elements. If the game requires something mechanically, it is the job of the writers to creatively figure out a way to make it work.

In Fallout 3, the gameplay calls for the player to discover some type of unique item in each dungeon to make exploration feel rewarding. This is good game design. When the ball was then thrown into the writer's court, they dropped it like a bunch of incompetent morons by doing things like stocking food openly on shelves in a two century old urban grocery store. This is shitty writing.

The developers of New Vegas prioritized other things over exploration, leading to useless locations like the Ivanpah Dry Lake cropping up from time to time. While this might be ok from a writing perspective, it's shit game design.

New Vegas occasionally struck a balance by doing things like explaining how the Q-35 Matter Modulator was still untouched for years inside Repconn Headquarters. It was behind a locked door and there was robotic security. This is good gameplay and writing.

What I'm constantly seeing here are people defending bad game design with good writing. This is inverted prioritization when you are talking about a video game.
 
The Pirates of the Caribbean ride predates the movies and calling game design "gamey" is retarded.
Why fixate on the analogy, instead of what the analogy means? Someone mentioned shortening posts a while back, and I replied that one almost has to go into great (and minute) detail, or get bogged down with in tangent replies about nothing related.
___
(This all should have been the footnotes and disclaimers of my earlier post.:mrgreen:)
It doesn't have to be about Pirates; who cares if there even IS a Pirates ride in Disney. None of that is the point... and that should be obvious. What the post describes about FO3 was that they seemingly designed it with similar intention to the presentation of theme park rides.

Bethesda builds Digital Delos parks, each to their own theme. A WestWorld theme would not give a story like the film Unforgiven, it gives a stylized vacation to a Western show... with a guarantee that the black hat cowboy calls you out for a gunfight, and three guys falling off a balcony when the stage coach gets robbed. A neat packaged tour of what you think it was like to live in the old west... while it never leaves your mind that its an amusement park.

**Nobody role played in Westworld... They treated it all like it was a day at the county fair... visiting the attractions. They weren't cowboys, they were business travelers in costume. All of the recent Bethesda ~RPGs that I've played are digital cosplay sandboxes; where the PC is like a vestigial tail that they try to ignore, in favor of substituting the player.

It's worse in FO3, because everything —everywhere seems to have been untouched by all that lived and died throughout the twenty decades before the player character arrives to discover it. :(
Theme park adventure.

In Fallout, most of the containers were empty, unless they belonged to someone—who still lived there; or unless they were in a place so isolated or deadly that no one had yet made it that far.
___

I can't tell if your comments on level design and modeling were towards me, but I didn't really touch on the level design other than to mention the plausible distances between locations. As far as (not impressed with) modeling goes, I actually meant character modeling, more than architectural.
 
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The developers of New Vegas prioritized other things over exploration, leading to useless locations like the Ivanpah Dry Lake cropping up from time to time. While this might be ok from a writing perspective, it's shit game design.
Except not useless when it's straight up copied from the real life one, which was one of the goals of New Vegas. To have 3D Mojave. And it's a dry lake. There, that's the backstory of that location. Does it need to have Plasma Rifle there to be good?

Not everything is supposed to be filled with loot, not everywhere you go is supposed to be rewarding. Some of the locations in New Vegas exist because they just do and some of the times, their names alone tell their backstory.
Writing and gameplay are separate elements. If the game requires something mechanically, it is the job of the writers to creatively figure out a way to make it work.
And in case of some of locations in Fallout 3, they don't work on both elements. Places forgotten by time, clearly ransacked several times to the absolute max, still have loot somehow. After 200 years, they have loot. This makes no sense from a writing perspective and from a gameplay one. The writers can't make sense out of this, no matter how hard they try.

I don't know what school you went, but gameplay and writing are not separate, at least in RPGs. I've seen several essays from game developers and i haven't heard anyone said that. New Vegas has stuff like the Q-35 matter modulator which has writing and gameplay intertwined. How are they supposed to be separate if they do stuff like this?
 
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Except not useless when it's straight up copied from the real life one, which was one of the goals of New Vegas. To have 3D Mojave. And it's a dry lake. There, that's the backstory of that location. Does it need to have Plasma Rifle there to be good?

Yes, although it doesn't have to be a plasma rifle or even a weapon at all. It just has to be something unique and rewarding. A holotape with some cool exposition leading to a skeleton would work.

And in case of some of locations in Fallout 3, they don't work on both elements. Places forgotten by time, clearly ransacked several times to the absolute max, still have loot somehow. After 200 years, they have loot. This makes no sense from a writing perspective and from a gameplay one. The writers can't make sense out of this, no matter how hard they try.

Yeah exactly, which is one of the game's major flaws.
 
Don't treat me like an asshole, dude. I'm a huge Josh Sawyer fan.
Sorry if I seems like I sounds like that to you. It's only that I think you're missing Daniel's point and, in my view, condescending toward him when doing so.

Writing and gameplay are separate elements. If the game requires something mechanically, it is the job of the writers to creatively figure out a way to make it work.
I know that. However, if from one's view one of the element is alright, that doesn't mean one can't criticize other element. I think you're completely missing the point because nowhere people are talking about the gameplay. They're talking about the one thing you forgot to consider when participating in this discussion: world design, which can also be derived to level design and/or environmental design. This is what Daniel and Norzan has been talking about.

I would say the one thing that truly makes an RPG is how different elements can come together to give you an experience that can transcend moment-to-moment gameplay.

In Fallout 3, the gameplay calls for the player to discover some type of unique item in each dungeon to make exploration feel rewarding. This is good game design. When the ball was then thrown into the writer's court, they dropped it like a bunch of incompetent morons by doing things like stocking food openly on shelves in a two century old urban grocery store. This is shitty writing.
And going from what I just said above, they also failed miserably at designing a world that make sense. Like Norzan mentioned before, settlements like Republic of Dave are located so close to danger zone like Old Olney, it baffles people why they're not wiped out by the Deathclaws already. And adding to that, 200 years since the bomb fell, why aren't places like Super-Duper Mart not scavenged to oblivion already? I can accept if some newer stuff like Brahmin meat lying around, or worn out 10mm Pistols, but bloody pre-War foodstuffs like you mentioned? That's 2 out of 3 elements we're talking about where they failed miserably. Who knows what other elements one might bring up when talking about RPGs that they failed.

The developers of New Vegas prioritized other things over exploration, leading to useless locations like the Ivanpah Dry Lake cropping up from time to time. While this might be ok from a writing perspective, it's shit game design.
Again, exploration doesn't always have to reward players with loot. Like I said before, it could've been lore pieces, or just something that you can see or hear to connect the dots within the context of the gameworld, or hell it could've been the dot itself. Also, the one thing that I immediately remembered about Ivanpah Dry Lake is the respawning giant ants. They are there to give players early XP.

Yes, although it doesn't have to be a plasma rifle or even a weapon at all. It just has to be something unique and rewarding.
If every locations give you something 'unique and rewarding', then they're no longer unique and rewarding, whatever the hell you meant with 'unique and rewarding' anyway.

Again, within the context of what the series achieved, Fallout 1&2 has really good gameplay mechanics at the time it came out, coupled with excellent world design and top-notch writing. It was a whole package. And then Fallout 3 came out and.... come on. You should get what I mean with this by now.

And while Fallout 3 follows this design philosophy that's somehow unique to Bethesda purely because they didn't have any competition in the market, one can always play other games where they have good gameplay mechanics, but they didn't soil the legacy of Fallout 1&2.

A holotape with some cool exposition leading to a skeleton would work.
:flameon:
 
When the ball was then thrown into the writer's court, they dropped it like a bunch of incompetent morons by doing things like stocking food openly on shelves in a two century old urban grocery store. This is shitty writing.
I didn't like it either, but are we at all sure that this wasn't a scripting flaw? I can't imagine that they populated every shelf and container by hand. Silly as it was, I do think that Jet showing up in a centuries old sealed footlocker, was the result of careless scripting, and not intentional—at least I hope not.
 
Yeah, I'm vaguely remembering that Bethesda actually let their procedural random generator or something like that to handle things like this, instead of handcrafting them where they should have. Same with level scaling that will eventually says fuck you to character progression. @Risewild can you confirm how loot generation works in both games?
 
I don't know what school you went, but gameplay and writing are not separate, at least in RPGs. I've seen several essays from game developers and i haven't heard anyone said that. New Vegas has stuff like the Q-35 matter modulator which has writing and gameplay intertwined. How are they supposed to be separate if they do stuff like this?

Ever hear of a guy called Shigeru Miyamoto? Also, you just answered your own question. You have to use one thing (the plasma rifle) to serve multiple purposes (gameplay and story).

They're talking about the one thing you forgot to consider when participating in this discussion: world design, which can also be derived to level design and/or environmental design. This is what Daniel and Norzan has been talking about.

Writing, world design, call it what you like. I'll give you an example of a problem I'm working on right now. I have to design a space that feels like a real Walmart-style building to the player, but is also a fun level to play from a gameplay perspective. A real dilemma. When forced to make compromises, I always prioritize the latter. The player will subconsciously fill in any story discrepencies if I do a good enough job. It's just psychology.

Everybody can go on believing what they like, though. I'm not going to keep arguing with a bunch of gamers who think they know everything about design.

:wall:
 
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