NCR-Brotherhood War - possible outcomes.

[peadar87]

As zegh said, there was initially no reason for the BoS to crush the NCR. By the time their interests came into conflict with each other, the NCR had a population of hundreds of thousands, which means probably tens of thousands of troops. The Brotherhood were probably closer to a few hundred to a few thousand members, due to not letting wastelanders join in any great numbers, and relying on antique power armour, which is unlikely to be in great supply. Their aim was never expansionism or increasing their numbers, it was to hoard technology.

It's hard to bring down a soldier in power armour, but by no means impossible. High-calibre armour piercing round to the head. EMP. Flamethrower to cook whatever is inside. Direct hit from an artillery shell. A power-armoured soldier is going to kill a lot of troopers before their number comes up and they get stopped by something like that, but they are not immortal. The NCR can afford many times more losses than the Brotherhood, and eventually the Brotherhood are going to be dead or driven out of the NCR, long before the NCR run out of troopers to throw at them. So the Brotherhood didn't disappear from NCR territory for no reason, they disappeared because they had all been shot.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Of course there's reason. Remember that the NCR peacefully assimilated them in the early stages, meaning that the Brotherhood just gives in without any kind of resistance or attempt for power. They could have at least claimed a seat in the government, because contrary to popular belief not every Brotherhood leader is some technological maniac who fucks all else. The later collapse in war is all fine and good, but the early stages makes little sense to me.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Of course there's reason. Remember that the NCR peacefully assimilated them in the early stages, meaning that the Brotherhood just gives in without any kind of resistance or attempt for power. They could have at least claimed a seat in the government, because contrary to popular belief not every Brotherhood leader is some technological maniac who fucks all else. The later collapse in war is all fine and good, but the early stages makes little sense to me.

There's no reason.
You even remember BoS from Fo1?
They were'nt agressive tech hoarders. Just military-scientists interesting in their tech stuff in their own bunkers, nothing more.
Fo1 Era - just sitting in one bunker, doing almost nothing in connection to outside world (only one campaign against Vipers, they even ignored threat of super mutants...), not having more contact with outside world than needed (a little trade).
Pre-Fo2 Era - becoming " major research and development house" of New California (region). Once again, zero aggressive policy.
Fo2 era - same, but being scared of Enclave.
Post fo2 - out of nowhere new leaders decide that only BoS can have energy weapons, holy crusade againts NCR.

 

[peadar87]

They were never assimilated. They stayed outside the NCR's power structure, while maintaining friendly relations with them. Eventually something happened to put them at odds with each other. Could have been an overly aggressive elder, could have been something the NCR did, an early sign of their militarism and expansionism. We never see any aggressive policy because we never see anybody challenge them in technology or power.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Of course there's reason. Remember that the NCR peacefully assimilated them in the early stages, meaning that the Brotherhood just gives in without any kind of resistance or attempt for power. They could have at least claimed a seat in the government, because contrary to popular belief not every Brotherhood leader is some technological maniac who fucks all else. The later collapse in war is all fine and good, but the early stages makes little sense to me.

There's no reason.
You even remember BoS from Fo1?
They were'nt agressive tech hoarders. Just military-scientists interesting in their tech stuff in their own bunkers, nothing more.
Fo1 Era - just sitting in one bunker, doing almost nothing in connection to outside world (only one campaign against Vipers, they even ignored threat of super mutants...), not having more contact with outside world than needed (a little trade).
Pre-Fo2 Era - becoming " major research and development house" of New California (region). Once again, zero aggressive policy.
Fo2 era - same, but being scared of Enclave.
Post fo2 - out of nowhere new leaders decide that only BoS can have energy weapons, holy crusade againts NCR.

Yeah, same BOS that required positive proof before taking action against the mutants and same BOS that were led by fucking hard hat Rombus, who made a FULL SCALE campaign against the Vipers!

 

[Artemis]

Yeah, same BOS that required positive proof before taking action against the mutants and same BOS that were led by fucking hard hat Rombus, who made a FULL SCALE campaign against the Vipers!

Maybe because fresh state like NCR, after short "NCR-Enclave conflict", acquired so much, that they started to thinking that they are godlike, changing their policy with the Brotherhood, thinking that they are equal or even better? BoS would definitely act aggressively, afraid of "outsiders" taking their hands on the things that they don't understand. For me "The Divide" or even interest in Vault 22 shows, that from their perspective they were absolutely right.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Of course there's reason. Remember that the NCR peacefully assimilated them in the early stages, meaning that the Brotherhood just gives in without any kind of resistance or attempt for power. They could have at least claimed a seat in the government, because contrary to popular belief not every Brotherhood leader is some technological maniac who fucks all else. The later collapse in war is all fine and good, but the early stages makes little sense to me.

There's no reason.
You even remember BoS from Fo1?
They were'nt agressive tech hoarders. Just military-scientists interesting in their tech stuff in their own bunkers, nothing more.
Fo1 Era - just sitting in one bunker, doing almost nothing in connection to outside world (only one campaign against Vipers, they even ignored threat of super mutants...), not having more contact with outside world than needed (a little trade).
Pre-Fo2 Era - becoming " major research and development house" of New California (region). Once again, zero aggressive policy.
Fo2 era - same, but being scared of Enclave.
Post fo2 - out of nowhere new leaders decide that only BoS can have energy weapons, holy crusade againts NCR.

Yeah, same BOS that required positive proof before taking action against the mutants and same BOS that were led by fucking hard hat Rombus, who made a FULL SCALE campaign against the Vipers!

But it's THE FUCKING RHOMBUS, who started open policy to wasteland within BoS. His death - BoS is devastating entire New California as Steel Plague. It was in original concept of Fo1, before Fo2 was being created, so you can't say that it doesn't makes sense.

Even in damn Fo1 slides it is said that "The Brotherhood wisely remains out of the power structure" so posts saying that BoS should become part of NCR government are bullshit.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Of course there's reason. Remember that the NCR peacefully assimilated them in the early stages, meaning that the Brotherhood just gives in without any kind of resistance or attempt for power. They could have at least claimed a seat in the government, because contrary to popular belief not every Brotherhood leader is some technological maniac who fucks all else. The later collapse in war is all fine and good, but the early stages makes little sense to me.

There's no reason.
You even remember BoS from Fo1?
They were'nt agressive tech hoarders. Just military-scientists interesting in their tech stuff in their own bunkers, nothing more.
Fo1 Era - just sitting in one bunker, doing almost nothing in connection to outside world (only one campaign against Vipers, they even ignored threat of super mutants...), not having more contact with outside world than needed (a little trade).
Pre-Fo2 Era - becoming " major research and development house" of New California (region). Once again, zero aggressive policy.
Fo2 era - same, but being scared of Enclave.
Post fo2 - out of nowhere new leaders decide that only BoS can have energy weapons, holy crusade againts NCR.

Yeah, same BOS that required positive proof before taking action against the mutants and same BOS that were led by fucking hard hat Rombus, who made a FULL SCALE campaign against the Vipers!

But it's THE FUCKING RHOMBUS, who started open policy to wasteland within BoS. His death - BoS is devastating entire New California as Steel Plague. It was in original concept of Fo1, before Fo2 was being created, so you can't say that it doesn't makes sense.

Even in damn Fo1 slides it is said that "The Brotherhood wisely remains out of the power structure" so posts saying that BoS should become part of NCR government are bullshit.

Why do they stay out of the power structure? What is the point of doing that? Because what, they felt like it?

 

[peadar87]

Of course there's reason. Remember that the NCR peacefully assimilated them in the early stages, meaning that the Brotherhood just gives in without any kind of resistance or attempt for power. They could have at least claimed a seat in the government, because contrary to popular belief not every Brotherhood leader is some technological maniac who fucks all else. The later collapse in war is all fine and good, but the early stages makes little sense to me.

There's no reason.
You even remember BoS from Fo1?
They were'nt agressive tech hoarders. Just military-scientists interesting in their tech stuff in their own bunkers, nothing more.
Fo1 Era - just sitting in one bunker, doing almost nothing in connection to outside world (only one campaign against Vipers, they even ignored threat of super mutants...), not having more contact with outside world than needed (a little trade).
Pre-Fo2 Era - becoming " major research and development house" of New California (region). Once again, zero aggressive policy.
Fo2 era - same, but being scared of Enclave.
Post fo2 - out of nowhere new leaders decide that only BoS can have energy weapons, holy crusade againts NCR.

Yeah, same BOS that required positive proof before taking action against the mutants and same BOS that were led by fucking hard hat Rombus, who made a FULL SCALE campaign against the Vipers!

But it's THE FUCKING RHOMBUS, who started open policy to wasteland within BoS. His death - BoS is devastating entire New California as Steel Plague. It was in original concept of Fo1, before Fo2 was being created, so you can't say that it doesn't makes sense.

Even in damn Fo1 slides it is said that "The Brotherhood wisely remains out of the power structure" so posts saying that BoS should become part of NCR government are bullshit.

Why do they stay out of the power structure? What is the point of doing that? Because what, they felt like it?

Because they didn't want to give up their autonomy in return for a relatively small degree of influence over the affairs of the common wastelander, most likely.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

We already know that New California Republic is in bad shape

I agree that the NCR has a number of potentially fatal problems, but that doesn't mean that the Brotherhood is going to be able to the fill power vacuum from a collapsing NCR. They are too few, too isolated, and too stuck in their narrow ideology to become a great power in the wasteland. Their heyday was in the pre-NCR world.

As I pointed out, the ending slides show that all they do if the NCR loses is to become high tech highwaymen and possibly re-take Helios. If an Independent Vegas doesn't have the robot army (which is a possible outcome), then I could maybe see them getting bold enough to conquer the city and becoming masters of the Mojave, but that's a pretty longshot scenario, which would require every other faction to have been defeated and the presence of an elder who was daring enough to seize the city. It would require a perfect storm of conditions for the Brotherhood to be able to assert themselves, and even then once they have the Mojave, I still don't see them having the ability to expand outwardly from there. The resources of the Mojave - water and power from Hoover Dam, and Helios' solar death ray - have a limited range, and unless there are other BoS groups in California to connect with, at best we might have a small BoS state to the East of the (former) NCR.

Again, I see that as an extreme longshot scenario. Most likely the Mojave Brotherhood were put out of their misery by the Courier (acting either on their own behalf, or on behalf of Mr. House), or absorbed into the NCR, or wiped out by the Legion.

 

[zegh8578]

Why do they stay out of the power structure? What is the point of doing that? Because what, they felt like it?

Because they are not a territorial administrative power yet/or ever. They are closer to being a cult or a sect. A country (which is what the NCR becomes) can house many cults or sects, if they have no issues with each others. BoS has a base that they protect, but you can also do this from inside a country. When/if that country, at a later stage, begins to restrict you, that's when frictions arise - and when it might be too late to act more like a military government, and not just tech-enthusiasts.

If the BoS were a "city state" or something, then yes, they would be very protective about their territorial integrity, like Vault City is. Now we'd talk about "annexation" and "occupation" and "invasion" and such terms. But I maintain that while BoS are initially being absorbed, if you will, by NCR, we are not at this point. We're at the point where one day a bunker-based sect is outside someone's national borders, and the next they're inside someone's national borders, and think "okaaay, what now?"

 

[Dr Fallout]

Why do they stay out of the power structure? What is the point of doing that? Because what, they felt like it?

Because they are not a territorial administrative power yet/or ever. They are closer to being a cult or a sect. A country (which is what the NCR becomes) can house many cults or sects, if they have no issues with each others. BoS has a base that they protect, but you can also do this from inside a country. When/if that country, at a later stage, begins to restrict you, that's when frictions arise - and when it might be too late to act more like a military government, and not just tech-enthusiasts.

If the BoS were a "city state" or something, then yes, they would be very protective about their territorial integrity, like Vault City is. Now we'd talk about "annexation" and "occupation" and "invasion" and such terms. But I maintain that while BoS are initially being absorbed, if you will, by NCR, we are not at this point. We're at the point where one day a bunker-based sect is outside someone's national borders, and the next they're inside someone's national borders, and think "okaaay, what now?"

Wouldn't they try limit the NCR's technological ability while they were weak?

 

[peadar87]

Why do they stay out of the power structure? What is the point of doing that? Because what, they felt like it?

Because they are not a territorial administrative power yet/or ever. They are closer to being a cult or a sect. A country (which is what the NCR becomes) can house many cults or sects, if they have no issues with each others. BoS has a base that they protect, but you can also do this from inside a country. When/if that country, at a later stage, begins to restrict you, that's when frictions arise - and when it might be too late to act more like a military government, and not just tech-enthusiasts.

If the BoS were a "city state" or something, then yes, they would be very protective about their territorial integrity, like Vault City is. Now we'd talk about "annexation" and "occupation" and "invasion" and such terms. But I maintain that while BoS are initially being absorbed, if you will, by NCR, we are not at this point. We're at the point where one day a bunker-based sect is outside someone's national borders, and the next they're inside someone's national borders, and think "okaaay, what now?"

Wouldn't they try limit the NCR's technological ability while they were weak?

I doubt the NCR's technological ability was particularly developed while they were weak. Not until they absorbed Vault City, dealt with raiders and lawlessness inside their borders, got a functional education system going. New Vegas happens 40 years after Fallout 2, the NCR-Brotherhood war happens somewhere in this time frame. Most likely between 2242 and 2274, as this was when the NCR began to expand into the Mojave, and I can't imagine them doing that if they were still in a life-or-death struggle against the Brotherhood in California.

In any case, is it so hard to believe that the Brotherhood made a strategic error, and didn't attack the NCR until it was too late?

 

[zegh8578]

Wouldn't they try limit the NCR's technological ability while they were weak?

Again, you seem to push that the BoS should have seen their window to react, but any such reaction would make the BoS an aggressor, and that just isn't in their nature (not necesarily cus they're "good guys", which they incidentally are, in their own warped way - but primarily cus they are strictly isolationist), or they woulda attacked Junktown or even more importantly, the Hub, a much better canditate at the time for growing regional powers.

I even believe it likely that as NCR grew, BoS reacted positively, they are an obvious ally, in a world where non-human monsters exist. And again, the BoS is so reclusive, so secretive and isolationist, even with their best intentions, they aren't going to achieve any normal relations with other organizations - which, again, comes back to haunt them.

You can see the BoS almost as a symptom - it fits and it can exist in an empty, ungoverned world of mutant monstrosities and hidden treasures. That's where their role fits, and even feels natural.
It does no longer fits, nor feels natural, inside the governed territory of a civilized nation, where wildernesses are national parks, and hidden treasures are government owned national history sites.
Being true to their nature, they can only begin dwindling away (or fundamentally change their nature)

 

[Dr Fallout]

Wouldn't they try limit the NCR's technological ability while they were weak?

Again, you seem to push that the BoS should have seen their window to react, but any such reaction would make the BoS an aggressor, and that just isn't in their nature (not necesarily cus they're "good guys", which they incidentally are, in their own warped way - but primarily cus they are strictly isolationist), or they woulda attacked Junktown or even more importantly, the Hub, a much better canditate at the time for growing regional powers.

I even believe it likely that as NCR grew, BoS reacted positively, they are an obvious ally, in a world where non-human monsters exist. And again, the BoS is so reclusive, so secretive and isolationist, even with their best intentions, they aren't going to achieve any normal relations with other organizations - which, again, comes back to haunt them.

You can see the BoS almost as a symptom - it fits and it can exist in an empty, ungoverned world of mutant monstrosities and hidden treasures. That's where their role fits, and even feels natural.
It does no longer fits, nor feels natural, inside the governed territory of a civilized nation, where wildernesses are national parks, and hidden treasures are government owned national history sites.
Being true to their nature, they can only begin dwindling away (or fundamentally change their nature)

I can agree to all of that, but the last one, because the BOS are the aggressors, they made a full out military campaign against the Vipers, wiping them out.

 

[zegh8578]

I can agree to all of that, but the last one, because the BOS are the aggressors, they made a full out military campaign against the Vipers, wiping them out.

But the Vipers were disrupting other communities, so... "they started it"
NCR were not attacking others, they didn't act like bandits or thugs

In return, I can agree that even attacking raiders is a bit outside of the BoS code, but maybe they saw it as an easy fly to swat, before staying isolationist, idunno

 

[Dr Fallout]

I can agree to all of that, but the last one, because the BOS are the aggressors, they made a full out military campaign against the Vipers, wiping them out.

But the Vipers were disrupting other communities, so... "they started it"
NCR were not attacking others, they didn't act like bandits or thugs

In return, I can agree that even attacking raiders is a bit outside of the BoS code, but maybe they saw it as an easy fly to swat, before staying isolationist, idunno

Maybe, they're one of the most interesting factions that Bethesda ruined. Ah well.

 

[zegh8578]

I can agree to all of that, but the last one, because the BOS are the aggressors, they made a full out military campaign against the Vipers, wiping them out.

But the Vipers were disrupting other communities, so... "they started it"
NCR were not attacking others, they didn't act like bandits or thugs

In return, I can agree that even attacking raiders is a bit outside of the BoS code, but maybe they saw it as an easy fly to swat, before staying isolationist, idunno

Maybe, they're one of the most interesting factions that Bethesda ruined. Ah well.

Definitely.
And, not to doom them further, because I like the notion of BoS surviving and persisting - but they kindov fit better as a myth of the past. It wouldn't surprise me if that was what FO2 tried to introduce, despite it being difficult to really put the lid on them (they pop back into existence in Van Buren)

 

[mrchaos]

But the Vipers were disrupting other communities, so... "they started it"
NCR were not attacking others, they didn't act like bandits or thugs

In return, I can agree that even attacking raiders is a bit outside of the BoS code, but maybe they saw it as an easy fly to swat, before staying isolationist, idunno

The BOS didn´t started it. Their leader (arthur the second I think.) was killed by a poisoned weapon while he had his helmet off. Then the brotherhood wiped out the vipers.

 

[zegh8578]

But the Vipers were disrupting other communities, so... "they started it"
NCR were not attacking others, they didn't act like bandits or thugs

In return, I can agree that even attacking raiders is a bit outside of the BoS code, but maybe they saw it as an easy fly to swat, before staying isolationist, idunno

The BOS didn´t started it. Their leader (arthur the second I think.) was killed by a poisoned weapon while he had his helmet off. Then the brotherhood wiped out the vipers.

I didn't say the BoS started it "the vipers were disrupting other communities, so - they started it" as in, the Vipers did :]