NCR vs. Caesar's Legion : Who Will Win?

[peadar87]

First thing first, how could the NCR ever win the war? That would require them to invade Caesar's territory at some point, and this is simply impossible. It's not imaginable to see the NCR send a lot of troops into a California sized, unknown territory, surrounded by Legion troops with almost infinite supply + manpower, and the whole thing, without clearly secured supply lines from the west. The whole thing, with the threat of the Divide and the Legion's tribal auxiliaries along the way. Oh, and without popular/financial support from home.

The NCR don't need to capture Flagstaff to win the war. If Caesar dies and the legion fractures, that suits them just fine. The Allies never captured Berlin in WW1.

It is simply impossible. I can't see any plausible scenario in which the NCR ever defeats the Legion. They -can- potentially push them back from the Mojave, again and again if they decide to invest the proper manpower & support to it, but nothing more.

And the more the legion get pushed back, and the longer the NCR hold the Mojave, the harder it gets for the Legion. If the NCR entrench and consolidate, it gets harder for the Legion to cross with every attempt. And if the legion wastes all its resources on Hoover Dam it leaves itself open to internal revolt and external forces.

The Legion, on the other hand, could actually make the NCR fall very easily. Once the Mojave has fallen, there is nothing -litteraly nothing- between the Legion and the Hub. A siege could happen fast and easily, and the Legion could make it as long as they want. If the Hub is isolated from the NCR, the government loses all major roads to the Boneyard, Junktown etc.

There's 200km of desert with the Sierra Nevada protecting the northern flank. Even getting past the Mojave Outpost would be a nightmare for the Legion. Getting up that hill if the NCR set up artillery and machine gun emplacements? They'd lose thousands. And as Ben Soto has said, the closer the Legion get to the Core Region, the better the NCR's infrastructure. They've got railways to move troops and supplies in the West. The legion are using brahmin.

Immediate financial crisis. The NCR would have to send a lot of troops south, leaving the north opened for any skirmish from the brotherhood of steel.

The Brotherhood are a spent force. It would be suicide for them to attack the NCR, and they know it. And besides, if the legion control the Mojave, they would probably fill the bunker with concrete and drown anyone inside. Caesar is pretty explicit in his desire to see the Brotherhood gone.

Caesar would find it easy to convince the whole pack of Californian tribes to join him, providing him with guerilla warriors harassing the NCR lines and forming expendables auxiliaries.

We know nothing about the tribals in California now. It's a bit of a stretch to say Caesar would find it easy to assimilate them. It's not like the Dead Horses and the Sorrows have jumped at the chance of joining.

Finally, Shady Sands may be a fortified city, it is still surrounded by mountains mostly unexplored and left to local tribes. In other words, it would be extremely easy for any army to completely isolate Shady Sands, keep the troops safe from any massive counter attacks and keep bombing the city from hidden artillery within the mountains.

But first they have to get to Shady Sands. I suppose Caesar could go full Hannibal Crossing the Alps on the Sierra Nevada, but it wouldn't take a large force to cause massive losses to Caesar in the difficult terrain. And moving the bulk of his army through the mountains would leave Caesar open to a counter-attack by the NCR on his own supply lines while he's bogged down in the mountains.

The Shi's are an independent power at this point. It's in their best interest not to interfere and to negociate the guarantees of their independence with the most plausible winner. In this situation, the Legion.

We don't know about the Shi. They're not even mentioned in New Vegas, which suggests to me they no longer exist (as if they were still around, they'd merit a mention at least). I reckon absorbed into the NCR. In any case, they're intelligent folk. They're not going to be stupid enough to side with Caesar. Either they don't know him, and they're too clever to side with a complete unknown, or they do know about him, and know about his treachery towards past allies, probably including the Khans at this point.

 

[NMLevesque]

This is because the Legion got most of it's content not implemented because of the short time Obsidian had to make the game.

You think there would have been a Yes Man and House option to have the Legion take the dam? I could maybe see it for Yes Man because he'll apparently accept anything. Though, that there could have been more detail doesn't mean the endings would be altered beyond a few new slides.

I would say that without the Courier House would achieve his objectives. Without the Courier, Ulysses would be the one taking the Chip

Except for the part where he would never work with House, and the one where he stated executing House would be an act of mercy. So if he ever got inside the Lucky 38 I would bank on one of them ending up dead.

 

[mithrap]

The NCR don't need to capture Flagstaff to win the war. If Caesar dies and the legion fractures, that suits them just fine. The Allies never captured Berlin in WW1.

Sure thing. Caesar is his own faction's weakness and his death would plunge his legions into turmoil. Thing is, in the case of a Legion's victory over Hoover Dam, Caesar has probably had his tumor surgically removed.
And of course, a defeat of California would force the Legion to mutate in radical ways to not fall into stagnation and chaos, but that's what Caesar wants in the end.

As for Germany, the context was very different. The germans had planned a -very- short war, economically speaking, and were crumbling under debts by the end. Secondly, they were being squeezed from the west as much as from the east. They had to resort to melting church bells to keep making artillery shells. The population was starving due to diverse blockades at all borders.
None of that could happen for Caesar's turf. If the Legion's economy is also based on the Augustus' Roman one, then the more it fights, the richer it gets. Caesar doesn't rely on the support of foreign nations so wouldn't care if anyone blocked his borders (also, who could blockade New Mexico & Colorado, even today? Those are huge borders) He doesn't need much of an industry to keep a war afloat, considering his men's equipment, and even if he did, he has slaves to put to work.
As long as he lives, Caesar could stand a war for a very long time -even a sterile one- while the NCR would need peace in the short term to simply continue to function.

And the more the legion get pushed back, and the longer the NCR hold the Mojave, the harder it gets for the Legion. If the NCR entrench and consolidate, it gets harder for the Legion to cross with every attempt.

-If- the NCR entrenches and consolidates. Which seems unlikely, considering that even while facing an existential threat at its borders, the NCR keeps sending conscripts with low morale and supplies so low, they don't even get a standard uniform anymore. Local support is very low and wouldn't get better if the NCR had to keep fighting in that foreign land.
They held Hoover Dam for years after their first victory, knowing that the Legion would come back, eventually. Still, they didn't consolidate much except for the Mojave Outpost because they simply cannot, with the current government that keeps prioritizing the protection of brahmin barons instead of the borders.
It's the second attempt for the Legion at Hoover Dam. Still, their morale is way, way higher than the NCR's. Nothing indicates that the Legion wouldn't push again, even with heavy losses. Same couldn't be said for the Republic, in its current state.

And if the legion wastes all its resources on Hoover Dam it leaves itself open to internal revolt and external forces.

We don't really know what's east of the Legion's territory, true, but Caesar is pretty clear that the NCR is the one and only force that could match him. The conquest by another power is pretty unlikely.
Same goes for the internal revolt. This is a fucked up feudal society, with a brainwashed population and a big focus on radical justice and security. People wouldn't revolt there as easily as they would in a republican, modern society, considering that any attempt would lead to the cross. They have lived that way for decades of non-stopping conquests and as far as we know, the legion's society is still pretty stable.
The NCR on the other hand absolutely needs a quick victory to keep social stability. The possibility of a revolt seems more likely in the west than in the east, considering the current morale of the conscripts and the propaganda efforts Kimball deploys, just to prevent desertion and turmoil in his ranks.

There's 200km of desert with the Sierra Nevada protecting the northern flank.

Is that really a protection, though? A desert cannot be secured by an army, even today. -If- the Legion manages to cross the Long 15, once they reach the desert they'd be very hard to fight. While it's true that a trench war would be the end for the Legion, it's impossible to deploy a defense line it in such a big area, where hundreds of men can walk around unnoticed. This is what makes the war in Syria very difficult for the infantry, for example. Militias can move and hide easily.

200km of desert could be crossed in one day by a motorized army. For the Legion, let's be pessimisstic and give them one week.

Once the Mojave falls, their armies are one week from the Hub, max, with nothing in their way.

If the Mojave falls to the NCR, on the other hand, they still present no existential threat to the core power of the Legion. The Legion's only threat at this point is itself, due to Caesar's tumor, but that's independent from the Republic.

Even getting past the Mojave Outpost would be a nightmare for the Legion. Getting up that hill if the NCR set up artillery and machine gun emplacements? They'd lose thousands.

Unless the Legion has a working bomber -the outpost having no air defense- and artillery ready. Which they'd have, at this point.

Also, the outpost is occupied by conscripts led by a man who loses all hope once the Legion takes over Nipton. Not a good sign. Their supplies are low and the civilians they are surrounded with are caravaneers ; according to Cass, they'd be perfect candidates for joining the Legion willingly. Which exposes the outpost to risks of terrorist attacks, exactly like for the strip embassy. A chemical attack at the beginning of the assault is very likely, since this is the strategy used by the Legion when they attack the Dam.

If the outpost doesn't surrender, then only the Legion could decide to throw some foot soldiers to finish them. Considering their cruelty, they'd probably use child soldiers, to put a final blow to the conscript's morale. If that's not enough to provoke mutiny and desertion in the outpost, then only, they could send soldiers.

And as Ben Soto has said, the closer the Legion get to the Core Region, the better the NCR's infrastructure. They've got railways to move troops and supplies in the West. The legion are using brahmin.

That's true. But the Legion doesn't need to fully invade California.
Isolating the Hub cuts it in two, cripple its finance, morale, commerce etc. And if Caesar manages to take the city, he can keep the population hostage to prevent the NCR from unleashing its full military power. Add some turmoil in the north thanks to tribal auxiliaries, and you've got the NCR in a very bad situation, no matter how intact their military and infrastructure is.
At this point, a conditional surrender is totally plausible. The NCR would rather negociate a vassal-state, status-quo situation rather than risking an escalation and a full-scaled trench war that could last for years, in their own territory (which would leave the Republic in ruins, even if they'd win). Caesar would be forced to accept, considering that he doesn't want his invasion to take too long. And because he knows that the NCR would beat his bald ass eventually.

The Brotherhood are a spent force.

I'm talking about the Californian brotherhood, not the Mojave's. The californian brotherhood has been waging war with the NCR for years, and has no intention of giving up.
At the second the NCR shows any weakness, you can bet the brotherhood will seize the opportunity.
Sure, they would never accept Caesar's rule. But if they want to survive, they know that their odds are better against the Legion than against the NCR.

We know nothing about the tribals in California now. It's a bit of a stretch to say Caesar would find it easy to assimilate them.

Well we know that Bullhead was full of tribes until Kimball seized it. Cass and Raul keep saying that the roads in California are not safe, because of the constant brigandage, so it's safe to say that there are plenty of little factions here and there.

It's not like the Dead Horses and the Sorrows have jumped at the chance of joining.

The Dead horses were actually part of Caesar's Legion, so they did join them at some point, but I don't remember why they aren't members of it anymore, by the time the DLC takes place. The white legs jumped at the chance of joining Caesar. Same for the fiends, and the bombers don't hesitate for long, simply because they don't know about the Legion's activities. They are a tribe, their knowledge of the geopolitical struggles is limited to the immediate perception.

But first they have to get to Shady Sands. I suppose Caesar could go full Hannibal Crossing the Alps on the Sierra Nevada

It was difficult for Hannibal due to the idea of doing it during winter and with elephants. For Caesar, it would be as hard as it is for militias in the Egypt's Sinaï today. Aka, pretty easy. For years, Egypt has failed to secure the mountains of Sinaï, despite their modern army and the fact that the Sinaï is right next to them. Because none can really "secure" a mountain, or prevent infantry movements there. Even a modern army has trouble doing it (the Talibans can still move around in the mountains pretty easily, despite our drones)

And moving the bulk of his army through the mountains would leave Caesar open to a counter-attack by the NCR on his own supply lines while he's bogged down in the mountains.

True, but then again, I really don't think he'd even need to go for Shady Sands.

We don't know about the Shi. They're not even mentioned in New Vegas, which suggests to me they no longer exist (as if they were still around, they'd merit a mention at least). I reckon absorbed into the NCR. In any case, they're intelligent folk. They're not going to be stupid enough to side with Caesar. Either they don't know him, and they're too clever to side with a complete unknown

Their emperor-calculator did calculate the probability of military risks in Fallout 2, taking account of the NCR forces. Should the NCR face a Legion invasion and lose the Hub, no doubt that the Shis could easily calculate the odds, and take a pragmatic decision. They'd probably stay as neutral as possible for a while, until taking a side.
If they still exist, that is. I thought I read that they became an independent faction, but I was wrong about that. If anything, they were probably assimilated by the NCR, that's true.

 

[naossano]

Also, the BOS would most likely prefer having the legion as neighbours, considering they most likely won't try to use highly advanced technologies agains't them.

 

[NMLevesque]

...the NCR would need peace in the short term to simply continue to function.

Why? What happens in 'the mojave' doesn't really affect California overmuch. They're getting something out of it, and losing others. It's close to breaking even by the sound of it. Also, one thing people are forgetting is how armies surge when defending their homelands, for fairly obvious reasons as well as simple logistics. They are the more populous, well armed, organized state. Whose constant expansionism means they've been functioning without peace for much of their history.

-If- the NCR entrenches and consolidates. Which seems unlikely, considering that even while facing an existential threat at its borders, the NCR keeps sending conscripts with low morale and supplies so low, they don't even get a standard uniform anymore. Local support is very low and wouldn't get better if the NCR had to keep fighting in that foreign land.

They've consolidated before, and do it in game. If they take hoover dam they also do it after the game ends. In that case after beating the Legion, again, with the roads secured and tax revenue newly pouring in, and without House draining them on the Strip their supply and morale would improve. It's fairly simple really.

They held Hoover Dam for years after their first victory, knowing that the Legion would come back, eventually. Still, they didn't consolidate much except for the Mojave Outpost because they simply cannot, with the current government that keeps prioritizing the protection of brahmin barons instead of the borders.
It's the second attempt for the Legion at Hoover Dam. Still, their morale is way, way higher than the NCR's. Nothing indicates that the Legion wouldn't push again, even with heavy losses. Same couldn't be said for the Republic, in its current state.

Legion soldier's morale is high maybe, assuming they're inhuman and don't fear for their own lives. As Legion propaganda is inclined to say, and people credulously eat up like they've never heard propaganda before. Regardless, their society is at minimum half slaves, if not by a large majority given obvious factors. They make up the brunt of the support staff, and an army is nothing without support. In the Legion's case their morale is mostly shit.

We don't really know what's east of the Legion's territory, true, but Caesar is pretty clear that the NCR is the one and only force that could match him. The conquest by another power is pretty unlikely.

As unlikely as someone being covered in pitch, set aflame, and tossed into the grand canyon surviving--and even regaining strength enough to be tougher than 99% of badasses everywhere? Clearly one cannot rule out surprises. Before NV we could have said it's unlikely they'll meet a nation capable of resisting them. It's not saying much.

Same goes for the internal revolt. This is a fucked up feudal society, with a brainwashed population and a big focus on radical justice and security. People wouldn't revolt there as easily as they would in a republican, modern society, considering that any attempt would lead to the cross. They have lived that way for decades of non-stopping conquests and as far as we know, the legion's society is still pretty stable.

Based on what historical precedent is this even remotely true? As much as the comparison to feudalism contradicts your point here, I will point out that the Legion does not qualify as feudal. We are given no indication that they employed any such system as serfdom. Either way there were more revolts historically. Modern systems seem to work better. Which is probably why people tend to use them. I guess I just don't personally subscribe to the notion of fads as being a dominant force in political reform.

The NCR on the other hand absolutely needs a quick victory to keep social stability. The possibility of a revolt seems more likely in the west than in the east, considering the current morale of the conscripts and the propaganda efforts Kimball deploys, just to prevent desertion and turmoil in his ranks.

Again, based on what? They get to vote. If they don't like their government, guess what, it's going to change in a few years. They can also leave. They're allowed to, provided they aren't currently enlisted. Which itself is a temporary thing. The only way to change the Legion is war. There is no leaving it. Half their population or more are treated worse than most cattle. Most of their people aren't allowed to have a family. If I described the Legion to you with just details, and didn't know what I was talking about, your reaction wouldn't be 'sounds stable'. A revolt in the Legion is inevitable. Whether it would be successful is another thing. The only reason ancient Rome survived slave revolts, is because of how they were organized. The Legion, despite its description does not resemble Rome at this stage. Or have any indication of reaching it really.

Once the Mojave falls, their armies are one week from the Hub, max, with nothing in their way.

Other than a society that no longer needs to extend itself along roads to get shit and soldiers from its base of manufacturing, and population centers? The NCR outnumbers the Legion. Homeland defenses mean more are willing to fight, and it's much easier to field a large army because even farmers can easily surge the ranks during the summer. Furthermore, the NCR fights in 'the mojave' at its worst. Popular support is waning during the game. If the Legion miraculously managed to press that far into NCR territory, then popular support wouldn't be an issue. The vested interests would start bankrolling the war effort. There wouldn't be any reason for the sort of scheming we see in NV, such as with the Van Graffs. Such games would only hurt them, when they would stand to lose everything. Besides, it could easily be leveraged for financial gain. The industrial military complex and that whole shtick.

If the Mojave falls to the NCR, on the other hand, they still present no existential threat to the core power of the Legion.

A technologically and numerically superior enemy, whose lands are more valuable and population is growing faster isn't an existential threat? The Legion is just a larger and better organized group of raiders. Caesar is the only anomaly in an immensely anti-intellectual society that shuns even basic medicine. Without him, which is in inevitable state, they have no capacity to evolve and even with him they are stagnant. Time itself is an existential threat to them. They might try to piggyback on the glory of the Roman Empire but the NCR more closely embodies its virtues and strengths. Whereas the Legion wouldn't even qualify as the Gaul's.

...according to Cass, they'd be perfect candidates for joining the Legion willingly.

When does she say that? Also, each of those examples of Legion tactics are old. They didn't have the effects you described then, so why would that change?

The Dead horses were actually part of Caesar's Legion, so they did join them at some point, but I don't remember why they aren't members of it anymore, by the time the DLC takes place.The white legs jumped at the chance of joining Caesar. Same for the fiends, and the bombers don't hesitate for long, simply because they don't know about the Legion's activities. They are a tribe, their knowledge of the geopolitical struggles is limited to the immediate perception.

Joshua Graham visited them when he was a Legate. They never joined the Legion. Nor did the White Legs. The White Legs are being used as proxies under the auspices of earning entry. The Fiends are in the same position. We also know how that particular dance ends. As well as how other tribes fight to the death to avoid assimilation. The Boomers never willingly yield to the Legion in any ending so I don't know what you're talking about. It's also clear that trying to expand that way is a gamble. Denver resisted and gave them grief. The NCR is much bigger. Their greatest asset isn't a shitload of feral/robo dogs. Their tribals may be tribal, but that doesn't make them the same as what lies east of the Colorado (at least by the time of NV). Uncontacted tribes aren't likely to exist in California for one thing. So I wouldn't exactly consider then easy pickings. It's not like Caesar is the only one who can conscript them either. Pretty sure the NCR is already basically doing that anyway.

 

[Black Angel]

Why? What happens in 'the mojave' doesn't really affect California overmuch.

The Hoover Dam's electricity supply, that's why.

 

[Cobra Commander]

All Ulysses wants is to be noticed by Courier-senpai.

Anyway XD Legion wins. Just throw poison in the Colorado River and they have a GG easy.

 

[Apollyon]

Caesar's Legion wins, because the Legion understands the multifaceted nature of warfare. The NCR can only think in tactical terms and within in the tunnel vision of technology.

 

[CT Phipps]

Caesar's Legion wins, because the Legion understands the multifaceted nature of warfare. The NCR can only think in tactical terms and within in the tunnel vision of technology.

Barring the whole brain tumor insane megalomaniac petty manchild business.

But the reason the Legion will lose is because of economics. It's has 1/3rd of the economy of NCR. Also, the failure at the Mojave is due to astounding gross military incompetence which won't apply to people fighting in their own homes and territories.

 

[Apollyon]

If we assume what you say is true, and the NCR's military incompetence wouldn't continue beyond the Mojave, wouldn't that still attribute to a major Legion victory? Hoover Dam, Vegas, Mojave Outpost. Aren't those the objectives the war is about?

I notice in a lot of these discussions it is assumed the war would continue until either side achieves total victory over the other, but I disagree. A total victory seems an impossibility from both the NCR's and the Legion's perspective.

 

[CT Phipps]

If we assume what you say is true, and the NCR's military incompetence wouldn't continue beyond the Mojave, wouldn't that still attribute to a major Legion victory? Hoover Dam, Vegas, Mojave Outpost. Aren't those the objectives the war is about?

Well, if the point was Caesar settling the Mojave and building an actual nation-state then that would be good but the problem with Caesar's Alexandrian ambitions is the fact that conquering the Mojave is feasible but conquering NCR is not. Furthermore, he wants to build his capital without electricity or the benefits of Hoover Dam in Vegas.

Which....is a city that survives only because of Hoover Dam.

His tumor has clearly gotten to him.

But either way, he'll NEED to conquer NCR because it's in his manifesto he believes only by combing NCR and Legion culture can both survive.

I notice in a lot of these discussions it is assumed the war would continue until either side achieves total victory over the other, but I disagree. A total victory seems an impossibility from both the NCR's and the Legion's perspective

I agree as NCR can barely digest the Mojave and keep itself intact (maybe). It would honestly benefit most from a Mister House victory as he's happy to administrate the Mojave region while NCR would gain access to a completely powered up Hoover Dam.

All the resources of the Mojave and none of the responsibility--just caps which get reinvested in the local economy. Plus, the region is defended by a robot army that doesn't require NCR to expend their military resources.

Independent would also work.

For the Legion area, what they really need is a leader who isn't lost in dreams of military adventurism but rebuilding the territory with a less misogynist bent and more Roman civilization/Pax Romana.

It's a shame the only non-psychotic Legionaires Joshua Graham and Ulysses (if healed) have no interest in that. Lanius is even worse than Caesar in some respects and Vulpes is no better.

 

[mithrap]

Why? What happens in 'the mojave' doesn't really affect California overmuch.

Yes it does. The NCR absolutely needs to expand to deal with its upcoming famine (set to happen by the decade) and energy issues, as stated by Oliver Lee, Hildren and Hanlon.

Also, one thing people are forgetting is how armies surge when defending their homelands, for fairly obvious reasons as well as simple logistics.

When the said country is already low on morale? Many armies usually desert at the very first sign of invasion. I didn't see the million soldiers from Saddam Hussein put up any kind of trench warfare when the coalition came to town. Khaddafi did put up a better resistance, but because of his mercenaries, his army also ran away as soon as we arrived.
Same for Egypt's army when Israel managed to cross the Sinaï. The IDF faced so many thousands of Egyptians soldiers making themselves prisoners that they had to ask the U.S. to send food ASAP.
When the germans invaded France, we did put up a good fight for a while, but at the same time... Before the germans ever set foot on French soil, the government was already burning its archives and evacuating the gold reserves, because we knew our army wouldn't have the morale to fight for too long.
There are countless examples of armies simply giving up when facing an invasion, despite having the power and logistics to fend it off, simply because they know that resisting for too long could leave the said country in a worse state than by simply giving it up.

They've consolidated before, and do it in game.

Where and when?

Legion soldier's morale is high maybe, assuming they're inhuman and don't fear for their own lives.
As Legion propaganda is inclined to say, and people credulously eat up like they've never heard propaganda before. Regardless, their society is at minimum half slaves, if not by a large majority given obvious factors. They make up the brunt of the support staff, and an army is nothing without support.

What we see in game actually confirms Legion's propaganda, as we see brainwashed foot soldiers rushing into battle with zero sign of fear. The ritual of decimation + Lanius's ruthless command also add to the "motivated" aspect of the Legion's army. Those are brainwashed soldiers living and dying for Mars. They are not conscripts terrified of rushing into battle.
Also, nothing indicates that their supply lines are dealt by slaves, rather than the military or the independent caravans. And nothing indicates that their morale or loyalty is low. The slaves we see at the camp are newly acquired ones, beaten and mistreated. Slaves born in slavery, surrounded only by slaves born in slavery, usually have a very different view -if they have any- on the system they live in, simply due to the fact that they may have a hard time imagining anything else. Their condition -as horrible as it is- is not a factor of a fragile support, if their condition is older than a generation.
Roman history is full of supply lines dealt by slaves and private firms, with no problem whatsoever.

As unlikely as someone being covered in pitch, set aflame, and tossed into the grand canyon surviving--and even regaining strength enough to be tougher than 99% of badasses everywhere? Clearly one cannot rule out surprises. Before NV we could have said it's unlikely they'll meet a nation capable of resisting them. It's not saying much.

True. But as far as we know, the NCR is the only current force capable of facing the Legion.
While surprises are to be expected, we'd have to wait for a new canon title to discover them. In the narration spectrum of New Vegas alone, the Legion has no other threat.

As much as the comparison to feudalism contradicts your point here, I will point out that the Legion does not qualify as feudal.

My bad. Feudal was not the word I meant to use. My point was that their system is "old" and alien in the context of "modern" America, and more suited to produce a brainwashed population which would obey the rule of their military without question or desertion.

Either way there were more revolts historically. Modern systems seem to work better. Which is probably why people tend to use them.

Under feudal or imperial systems? Far less revolutions than under semi-democratic ones, like the NCR's. In terms of sheer numbers, modern times and societies faced way more revolutions than the feudal and antique ones.

Again, based on what? They get to vote. If they don't like their government, guess what, it's going to change in a few years.

Yes, but no. President Tandi stayed in power for half a century, not exactly a sign of a working and just democracy that can change anytime it shows weakness or corruption (and boy, do we get proofs of corruption under her rule). Next president stayed in the seat for 20 years before Kimball arrived and forced massive war propaganda into his citizen, such as "getting shot at is the greatest honor in life", while cashing the support of Baron Brahmins and huge private firms like the Gun Runners or the Crimson Caravans, whose voice is heard 100 times louder than the voice of the citizen.

They can also leave. They're allowed to, provided they aren't currently enlisted.

A conscript cannot just leave. And most of the soldiers in the Mojave are conscripts.

The only way to change the Legion is war. There is no leaving it. Half their population or more are treated worse than most cattle. Most of their people aren't allowed to have a family. If I described the Legion to you with just details, and didn't know what I was talking about, your reaction wouldn't be 'sounds stable'

Depends. A brutal and inhumane dictatorship can be stable. Look at the Saudi society, for example.
Rome did not have much problems with their slaves, in the end ; the slave revolts were very, very rare (3 important revolts in centuries of slavery, all of them dealt with fairly easily). Sparta had no problems with their slaves either, despite the fact that this was one of the most brutal, unjust and barbarian settled society we could imagine. Lost due to military defeats against the Romans, not to their treatment of their workforce. Unfortunately, stability doesn't depend on the morality of the system. And as far as we know, Caesar's Legion is stable, as long as Caesar lives.

A revolt in the Legion is inevitable.

Why?

Whether it would be successful is another thing. The only reason ancient Rome survived slave revolts, is because of how they were organized.

Not really. Spartacus' revolt was due to the fact that Spartacus was a superstar, with a voice heard by many. It's an accident, not a systemic event.
Also, his revolt wasn't dealt with because of Rome's organization considering that Marcus Crassus was one of the shittiest generals Rome had ever seen. Ultimately managing to tame the revolt was not an exploit, it was a disaster because of the time it took. But Spartacus never had any chance to win, even against one of the worst military leaders of Rome.

The Legion, despite its description does not resemble Rome at this stage. Or have any indication of reaching it really.

It's a power that didn't even exist 50 years ago. Managing to even approach a pale imitation of Rome's system in such a short time is a clear indication that it could actually become something similar in less than a century.

Other than a society that no longer needs to extend itself along roads to get shit and soldiers from its base of manufacturing, and population centers?

The NCR actually needs to extend itself, and fast. Its infrastructure is on the verge of not being able to keep supplying the needs of its citizen, mostly in terms of energy and food. Which is a huge and immediate problem.

The NCR outnumbers the Legion.

With civilians.

Homeland defenses mean more are willing to fight, and it's much easier to field a large army because even farmers can easily surge the ranks during the summer.

Then again, that is not an absolute rule. Mass conscription only works on a country with high morale. Also, conscripting farmers lead to less food production and the NCR already has an upcoming issue with famine with all its farmers at work. That's a problem.
Conscripts desert. A lot. Desertion is simply not possible with the Legion, which has a much larger pool of manpower available despite their lower population, since they don't have "civilians" and don't hesitate to use children.

Furthermore, the NCR fights in 'the mojave' at its worst. Popular support is waning during the game. If the Legion miraculously managed to press that far into NCR territory

The Hub is not far at all. 200 km of desert? Once the Mojave falls, the Hub has one week to evacuate at most.

then popular support wouldn't be an issue. The vested interests would start bankrolling the war effort.

Not necessarely. In the scenario of a Hub siege, which is very likely, caravan offices would be under the occupation of Caesar, and held hostage just like the rest of the population.

There wouldn't be any reason for the sort of scheming we see in NV, such as with the Van Graffs. Such games would only hurt them, when they would stand to lose everything.

Scenarios of invasions are a pool for massive scheming, corruption and collaboration with the invader.
I live in France, just next to the german border, and finding a local firm that didn't scheme back then is actually very hard.
Same for the government, since many ministers were also carrying public functions in various provinces, and were pushing the government to negociate surrender before the invasion even started. Because they prefered to see their lands occupied than ruined for decades due to mass conscriptions and trenches instead of fields. It's sad, yet it happened.

A technologically and numerically superior enemy, whose lands are more valuable and population is growing faster isn't an existential threat?

No, it's not. The NCR has no intention of invading the Legion's territory, since it simply cannot.
And unless it's invaded, the Legion territory is not under threat, since they don't rely on external interactions to function. Their only threat is the inevitable civil war that would follow Caesar's death.

Joshua Graham visited them when he was a Legate. They never joined the Legion.

According to the Fallout wiki, they actually did, and followed the Malpais Legate until they reached Utah.

Nor did the White Legs. The White Legs are being used as proxies under the auspices of earning entry. The Fiends are in the same position.

Which makes them auxiliaries of the Legion. My point exactly. Caesar can and does raise auxiliaries forces, and those susceptible to be seduced by his lies are plenty in California.

As well as how other tribes fight to the death to avoid assimilation.

The White Legs fight FOR assimilation. That's a big difference. History has seen plenty of tribes sticking a stick in empires, hoping to be be noticed by senpai Caesar and get assimiliated.

The Boomers never willingly yield to the Legion in any ending so I don't know what you're talking about.

About the Boomer's plane dropping bombs on the NCR (at 06:26) :

You can easily convince them to help the Legion. Point is, the NCR sees Caesar using a freaking bomber against them. That's totally new for the NCR's command, the last time they faced a foe with air support, it was the Enclave. That totally changes the way they'd perceive Caesar's threat, and that would be a very, very serious blow to an already low morale, especially in the Mojave Outpost, which doesn't have air defenses.

 

[NMLevesque]

Yes it does. The NCR absolutely needs to expand to deal with its upcoming famine (set to happen by the decade) and energy issues, as stated by Oliver Lee, Hildren and Hanlon.

Or they can scale back/suffer the consequences. Electricity is an asset to them, not a necessity. People aren't dependent on it. They hardly even seem to use refrigeration. As for famine it's just a prediction. Weather alone can make or break a farm, whereas the results breeding are just as unpredictable. Innovation occurs, and unlike the Legion at least the NCR is capable of evolving its methods.

When the said country is already low on morale?

Yes. Reference as many modern wars as you want but the conditions are too different to draw any meaning from them (though its fascinating that you seem to ignore the whole terrorist insurgency thing). They haven't gotten to the trench warfare stage in Fallout. Most of their people are still tribal, and they're still basically fighting the same way ancient armies did. They do however have guns. All it took was the invention of the crossbow to make peasant armies possible, and when it did they changed warfare entirely. No longer was it dominated by professionals. Nations would surge their ranks during the off seasons, when farmers didn't have to work their fields. If faced with the threat of genocide and slavery, a mostly tribal people who can make reasonably effective soldiers out of those who live a life of subsistence is necessarily going to recruit more than conscription for a costly and unpopular war in a distant land ever could.

Where and when?

1. (transitive, intransitive) To combine into a single unit; to group together or join.
   He consolidated his luggage into a single large bag.
2. To make stronger or more solid.

Well let's see, the founding of the NCR, its annexation of various disparate territories, the unification of various factions and tribes into a single cultural entity, and just in general the growth of their society and its military.

What we see in game actually confirms Legion's propaganda, as we see brainwashed foot soldiers rushing into battle with zero sign of fear. The ritual of decimation + Lanius's ruthless command also add to the "motivated" aspect of the Legion's army. Those are brainwashed soldiers living and dying for Mars. They are not conscripts terrified of rushing into battle.
Also, nothing indicates that their supply lines are dealt by slaves, rather than the military or the independent caravans. And nothing indicates that their morale or loyalty is low. The slaves we see at the camp are newly acquired ones, beaten and mistreated. Slaves born in slavery, surrounded only by slaves born in slavery, usually have a very different view -if they have any- on the system they live in, simply due to the fact that they may have a hard time imagining anything else. Their condition -as horrible as it is- is not a factor of a fragile support, if their condition is older than a generation.
Roman history is full of supply lines dealt by slaves and private firms, with no problem whatsoever.

Rushing into battle with zero signs of fear? As opposed to what? They fight like any other human in game. I've had Legion soldiers run away from me like anyone else. In fact the only hostiles that don't do that are bighorners. Also I wonder why people don't practice decimation anymore. Probably because it's not actually good for morale. Either way you're just speculating that it's somehow beneficial, but there's nothing in game that indicates it had any effect. Mr.New Vegas just comments that it happens. I talked about support staff, not supply lines. Though we do in fact see that slaves are used to carry things like pack brahmin. Which is how slaves were used historically. They also didn't like being slaves. Which is what you find in game when you talk to them. The only indication we are given about how people feel about being enslaved is that it's terrible. So, you can speculate about how pleasant it be elsewhere but you're just talking out of your ass on that one.

Under feudal or imperial systems? Far less revolutions than under semi-democratic ones, like the NCR's. In terms of sheer numbers, modern times and societies faced way more revolutions than the feudal and antique ones.

I don't usually just link to wikipedia, but for compiling lists like this there isn't much better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions
Take note of two things. One the historical record is less complete the farther back you go, so we can safely assume that there are more undiscovered revolts the farther back in history we go. Two the farther back you go the smaller the global population gets, which means every revolt represents a greater proportion of people. Which is to say that it reflects a higher rate.

Yes, but no. President Tandi stayed in power for half a century, not exactly a sign of a working and just democracy that can change anytime it shows weakness or corruption (and boy, do we get proofs of corruption under her rule). Next president stayed in the seat for 20 years before Kimball arrived and forced massive war propaganda into his citizen, such as "getting shot at is the greatest honor in life", while cashing the support of Baron Brahmins and huge private firms like the Gun Runners or the Crimson Caravans, whose voice is heard 100 times louder than the voice of the citizen

She was voted in each time, and was immensely popular. There's nothing to indicate electoral fraud during her administration. She's also closer to the type of leader that Caesar thinks the NCR should have anyway, so regurgitating his hollow criticisms doesn't really accomplish much. Also, 33 years have passed since her adminsitration. Things change. The fact that they have no term limits doesn't mean it's not a democracy. America has term limits, but it's never actually been one. It doesn't have cattle barons anymore (yes they were a real thing), but money is still the decisive factor. Yet oddly only one civil war, and it was over slavery which has already been purged from NCR territory. Regardless, the salient point is that the NCR believes it can change its government by election.

Depends. A brutal and inhumane dictatorship can be stable. Look at the Saudi society, for example.
Rome did not have much problems with their slaves, in the end ; the slave revolts were very, very rare (3 important revolts in centuries of slavery, all of them dealt with fairly easily). Sparta had no problems with their slaves either, despite the fact that this was one of the most brutal, unjust and barbarian settled society we could imagine. Lost due to military defeats against the Romans, not to their treatment of their workforce. Unfortunately, stability doesn't depend on the morality of the system. And as far as we know, Caesar's Legion is stable, as long as Caesar lives.

I'll wait for Saudi Arabia to at least reach their first centennial before I call it stable. They also have foreign relations, and oil bucks rolling in b/c they managed to rise to the top of a very unstable pile and because they have a sea port. They're also not strictly opposed to medicine and have families. There leader also isn't constantly waging war across its entire border. They have allies, they have partnerships, they have partnerships.

Point is, you can look at one component of the Legion and say that alone isn't enough, but they all contribute. The fact that Rome had to struggle through slave revolts is what matters, because it all adds up. Additionally the Legion is young, it's not even as old as Caesar. He's never been replaced. We don't even know the full consequences of his first replacement. What happens when they get to the third? In Rome there were cycles of dynastic succession. As soon as it was demonstrated that someone with a powerful army could take over, people just kept doing it. The first ruler of a cycle was somewhat reasonable, and had promise. The second tended to be passive and let things fester. The third was just absolutely terrible. Rome didn't die, but it did change. I'm not saying there would be a revolt and the Legion just disintegrates into nothingness.

Why

I just did, but I'll simplify. It's necessary. It's the only possible way that the Legion can change. No society can remain stagnant indefinitely. Human behavior simply does not allow people to accept the same exact way of life generation after generation. Greed is not something you can indoctrinate out of people. Eventually there will be someone, probably a psychopath that can lie effortlessly, who will want power and will try to take it, because war, war never changes.

Not really. Spartacus' revolt was due to the fact that Spartacus was a superstar, with a voice heard by many. It's an accident, not a systemic event.
Also, his revolt wasn't dealt with because of Rome's organization considering that Marcus Crassus was one of the shittiest generals Rome had ever seen. Ultimately managing to tame the revolt was not an exploit, it was a disaster because of the time it took. But Spartacus never had any chance to win, even against one of the worst military leaders of Rome.

He wasn't the first to lead a slave revolt. He had a similarly charismatic predecessor because guess what, the genetic lottery makes it inevitable that a born leader will be born into slavery as long as slavery is still a thing. In the Legion's case a Spartacus would not have to struggle through being a gladiator. He would be put into the ranks and could rise up them.

I don't see how Crassus allegedly being a shitty general has anything to do with my point about how ancient Rome was organized. I didn't say they won because their generals were excellent. So...yeah.

It's a power that didn't even exist 50 years ago. Managing to even approach a pale imitation of Rome's system in such a short time is a clear indication that it could actually become something similar in less than a century.

Based on what exactly? The fact that they're (mostly superficially) imitating something under completely different conditions and major differences? That doesn't even rise to the level of suggesting correlation implies causation.

"Civilians"
We have no indication of the total size of the NCR's military, and barely any indication of how much is even dedicated to the Mojave campaign. Regardless, the size of one's population is a factor.

"The Hub is not far at all. 200 km of desert? Once the Mojave falls, the Hub has one week to evacuate at most."
They have to hold the Mojave first. They still took losses in any scenario which takes years to replensih given the backstory of NV. There's no reason for the Hub to evacuate when they can send forces ahead, or fortify the city. We don't even know what it looks like by the time of NV. Maybe it already is prepared.

"Scenarios of invasions are a pool for massive scheming, corruption and collaboration with the invader."

Right because the Van Graffs would totally believe that they can keep on doing what they do after the Legion takes over. I'm not even going to swing at the rest.

"According to the Fallout wiki, they actually did, and followed the Malpais Legate until they reached Utah."

"If it wasn't for Joshua, the Dead Horses would still be the whipping boys of the Zion Valley. He taught us how to hold our territory, to protect ourselves. He guided us away from Caesar, and showed us how Caesar would have destroyed us." Follows Chalk

"Which makes them auxiliaries of the Legion. My point exactly. Caesar can and does raise auxiliaries forces, and those susceptible to be seduced by his lies are plenty in California."

They never fought for the Legion. They never officially joined. All we know is that Joshua Graham visited them once while he was with the Legion. Then went to them after. They didn't even have a rep with them like the Khans, who could still back out.

"You can easily convince them to help the Legion. Point is, the NCR sees Caesar using a freaking bomber against them. That's totally new for the NCR's command, the last time they faced a foe with air support, it was the Enclave. That totally changes the way they'd perceive Caesar's threat, and that would be a very, very serious blow to an already low morale, especially in the Mojave Outpost, which doesn't have air defenses."

They can attack either side, but that doesn't mean they joined up. In fact in every ending, despite them helping at the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam they're described as being independent. Except for the one ending where they're forcibly assimilated. The only thing them bombing the Dam means is that they've agreed to help the Courier. And also that everyone thinks it's a good idea to drop bombs on a mass of really old concrete that everyone is standing on.