A
Arin Matthews
Guest
Would you be okay with this?
Sure, idiots never die out. And fascist ideas would very much find their niche in a post-apocalyptic society all about struggle and survival of the fittest.
naossano
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
You mean patriots dressed in black, that would hate/despise/kill everything that is not pure enough ?
Sure it would be a new addition in the Fallout universe... If you're in trouble to name them, i would suggest something about an territory within an other.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
They wouldn't be unfitting for the setting but Neo Nazis and Nazis in general are so overused now. And we already have the Enclave so....
King_Rocket
First time out of the vault
Vault City and the Legion wasn't enough? (also the other many xenophobic groups) Plenty of fascism in the wastes already.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
Actually, the Legion, while an autocracy, is not quite like Nazis, as they blend people into their nation instead of consider it a race issue. Enclave fits more, with their concept of racial purity (although they call themselves humans in opposition to mutants instead of arians versus non-arians), and of course Vault City.
As has been pointed out here and by others, we've already got our Nazi quota filled. If they've got a circle of stars instead of a swastika and their definition of "race" is slightly more scientifically accurate... well, times change.
Regarding the "real" thing-- no, they don't really fit the world, IMO. Technically, hate never dies, but even if the world itself is mired in retro aesthetics, they were over 100 years beyond the height of Naziism when the bombs dropped and they're over 300 years past it in the current game timeline, and there's no evidence that neo-naziism (or anything like it) ever took root or spread in Fallout's divergent American timeline. May as well bring in a faction of visigoths, or cossacks, or Zoroastrians. Between the Legion and the new Khans, I think Fallout's already done more direct pillaging of history than was prudent.
Besides, most evidence points to there just not being enough people left alive after the bombs for any hate-based philosophy to be able to really sell itself. When you're in a community of ten people and your best scav is a gay black gypsy Jew, most people in the group are gonna be all for gay black gypsy Jews and no one trying to "put them in their place" is going to fare very well.
naossano
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Beside that, most of real-life issues had their counterparts in Fallout. The game use metaphors, which is great as it allow us to consider problems, without being too involved, but it adresses those issues anyway.
Diseases are replaced by radiations, FEV, and other new threats.
Racisms between black, white and chinese are replace by racism between Enclave, Super-mutants, ghouls and normies.
Scientology is replaced by hubology, nazi by Enclave, our humanitarians are replaced by the followers of Apocalypse, Vault City are puritans, and So on... Slavers are still called slaver but the main New Gen Fallout slavers are all black, which also turned the table.
So the point wouldn't be to remove metaphors, but to add some about things that weren't adressed.
Of course, if the developper still want to adress societies issues, and not who has a better gun...
Diseases are replaced by radiations, FEV, and other new threats.
Racisms between black, white and chinese are replace by racism between Enclave, Super-mutants, ghouls and normies.
Scientology is replaced by hubology, nazi by Enclave, our humanitarians are replaced by the followers of Apocalypse, Vault City are puritans, and So on... Slavers are still called slaver but the main New Gen Fallout slavers are all black, which also turned the table.
So the point wouldn't be to remove metaphors, but to add some about things that weren't adressed.
Of course, if the developper still want to adress societies issues, and not who has a better gun...
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BigBoss
Your Local Scrub
I think he meant Neo-Nazis as in "White Master Race".
Its a very delicate issue, and even Fallout (I say "even" because they have been know to touch delicate issues, one idea being child killing) has attempted to stay away from it. Especially the new games from the second-generation of Fallout (3 and NV), you can tell they were trying their damndest to avoid color racism at every turn. Even in situations where you think color racism would be, the game went over the top to be blatantly obvious that "color racism" didn't exist in the world of Fallout.
But the producers of the four games weren't stupid. They knew with all the critical issues they were touching, "color biased racism" would be one of the biggest. And basically, they didn't need that shit on their plate. I think if they figured people wouldn't act stupid and accuse Interplay/Obsidian/Bethesda of racism, than they would have most likely put it in at least one game. But people need a reason to cry in this world. They need something to complain about. And the Fallout series is already attacked enough without having to have racism tacked on to the huge fucking list of why some people consider Fallout a "bad" or "evil" game.
In short: people are idiots, and make a big deal out of everything.
But if your asking would I personally be ok with them? Well, I think it might fit. I would be ok with them being a minor faction, kind of like the BOS or Fiends were in New Vegas, or the Hubologists were in Fallout 2. But I don't think it would be worthy to put them as a major faction/threat to the wastes.
Its a very delicate issue, and even Fallout (I say "even" because they have been know to touch delicate issues, one idea being child killing) has attempted to stay away from it. Especially the new games from the second-generation of Fallout (3 and NV), you can tell they were trying their damndest to avoid color racism at every turn. Even in situations where you think color racism would be, the game went over the top to be blatantly obvious that "color racism" didn't exist in the world of Fallout.
But the producers of the four games weren't stupid. They knew with all the critical issues they were touching, "color biased racism" would be one of the biggest. And basically, they didn't need that shit on their plate. I think if they figured people wouldn't act stupid and accuse Interplay/Obsidian/Bethesda of racism, than they would have most likely put it in at least one game. But people need a reason to cry in this world. They need something to complain about. And the Fallout series is already attacked enough without having to have racism tacked on to the huge fucking list of why some people consider Fallout a "bad" or "evil" game.
In short: people are idiots, and make a big deal out of everything.
But if your asking would I personally be ok with them? Well, I think it might fit. I would be ok with them being a minor faction, kind of like the BOS or Fiends were in New Vegas, or the Hubologists were in Fallout 2. But I don't think it would be worthy to put them as a major faction/threat to the wastes.
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naossano
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Once again, there is color based racism in the Fallout Series.
Black Isles just replaced black people by big green people and arabs by people that looks undead. (of course i say arabs/black, but you can replace by any other culture)
The issue of racism is adressed in many lenght in the First two Fallout, and even in Tactics.
New Vegas & Fo3 also added a lot of racism/bigotry issues in their own ways. It's even quite omnipresent in all Fallout games.
The main quest of the Tempenny Tower is almost only about racism, except that both sides are racists.
With the Ghoul/Feral, there is the amalgam between hostiles (terrorists) and peacefull (civilian) of the same race.
Broken Hills is the best exemple of multicultural society, and even them has internal troubles.
The list could go on endlessly.
There is no point in adding racism between human as there is nothing that could be said in that way that couldn't be said about Pure Humans/normies, Ghouls/ferals, Nightkin/Super-Mutants, Deathclaws/Centaurs, Tribals/Civilians, Rich/Poor, Faction A/Faction B...
It is like adding Cola-Cola to Nuka-Cola, with the same stats/price.
They don't need the real thing as their thing is the same.
Black Isles just replaced black people by big green people and arabs by people that looks undead. (of course i say arabs/black, but you can replace by any other culture)
The issue of racism is adressed in many lenght in the First two Fallout, and even in Tactics.
New Vegas & Fo3 also added a lot of racism/bigotry issues in their own ways. It's even quite omnipresent in all Fallout games.
The main quest of the Tempenny Tower is almost only about racism, except that both sides are racists.
With the Ghoul/Feral, there is the amalgam between hostiles (terrorists) and peacefull (civilian) of the same race.
Broken Hills is the best exemple of multicultural society, and even them has internal troubles.
The list could go on endlessly.
There is no point in adding racism between human as there is nothing that could be said in that way that couldn't be said about Pure Humans/normies, Ghouls/ferals, Nightkin/Super-Mutants, Deathclaws/Centaurs, Tribals/Civilians, Rich/Poor, Faction A/Faction B...
It is like adding Cola-Cola to Nuka-Cola, with the same stats/price.
They don't need the real thing as their thing is the same.
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BigBoss
Your Local Scrub
Just because you "replace" it with different species and races doesn't meant its genuine or the same thing. I can beat around the bush all day, but in the end its not getting anywhere, and I'm not actually touching the subject.
People don't seem to understand this.
"Oh its a wasteland, they have already done it, they don't need to be-
Shut up. If anyone hasn't noticed, the wasteland is supposed to be a harsh and brutal place. Colored and nationality racism has existed since the end of time. Even a fucking nuclear war isn't going to change that. And no matter how much you dress up the subject, unfortunately the only way to touch the actual subject is to be blatant and obvious about it. Fuck beating around the bush. If Fallout is known for anything, its not that.
In simplicity, a man hating a mutant and a white man hating a black man because of race is basically the same.
BUT, its still not fucking colored racism, so now, Fallout HASN'T done it.
Besides whether its been done or not wasn't the question.
Its would you be ok with it.
But no doubt you will post up some other argument, basically relative to what you just said and providing no extra backing. Internet arguers always have to get the last word. And "like you" must be their favorite thing to use in an argument when they have nothing to back up their shit.
People don't seem to understand this.
"Oh its a wasteland, they have already done it, they don't need to be-
Shut up. If anyone hasn't noticed, the wasteland is supposed to be a harsh and brutal place. Colored and nationality racism has existed since the end of time. Even a fucking nuclear war isn't going to change that. And no matter how much you dress up the subject, unfortunately the only way to touch the actual subject is to be blatant and obvious about it. Fuck beating around the bush. If Fallout is known for anything, its not that.
In simplicity, a man hating a mutant and a white man hating a black man because of race is basically the same.
BUT, its still not fucking colored racism, so now, Fallout HASN'T done it.
Besides whether its been done or not wasn't the question.
Its would you be ok with it.
But no doubt you will post up some other argument, basically relative to what you just said and providing no extra backing. Internet arguers always have to get the last word. And "like you" must be their favorite thing to use in an argument when they have nothing to back up their shit.
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Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
I'd only switch places in your explanation, as people tend to excuse themselves saying mutants (arabs) are a menace (with all the terrorism deal), while up until FO3 (with the new thing about feral ghouls; before that, ghouls were ghouls, and in Necropolis they just faked to keep people scared), they hated ghouls (black people) just because they looked different.
I wouldn't do it, because it is a lame theme. You see this shit all day, why would I want to show it in a Fallout game again? White dudes beating black dudes. Much edgy, so wow. And just because Fallout never had humans hate humans because of their skin color, the games still touched the subject of racism, which should be the important part. One doesn't have to go all Captain Obvious on everything all day. Me personally, I would just roll my eyes nowadays, when I see it in someones Fallout mod / game.
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naossano
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
BigBoss >>
I may sound a little harsh sometimes, as i feel quite certain about the metaphor being the same thing as the real deal if they deal with the issue in a constructive way, and that all aspects of a good science fiction story has their counterparts in real-life, so i may forget that other could think otherwise. But I am not sure i got to the point i need to apology or to shut up and i doubt your legitimacy to ask (or order) me that.
If you think that i said nothing to back up what i said, be more specific, so i would extend that particular aspect. But i concede to you that it would probably be in line with i just said, as the point would be to explain, not to confuse by changing my mind out of the blue.
I may sound a little harsh sometimes, as i feel quite certain about the metaphor being the same thing as the real deal if they deal with the issue in a constructive way, and that all aspects of a good science fiction story has their counterparts in real-life, so i may forget that other could think otherwise. But I am not sure i got to the point i need to apology or to shut up and i doubt your legitimacy to ask (or order) me that.
If you think that i said nothing to back up what i said, be more specific, so i would extend that particular aspect. But i concede to you that it would probably be in line with i just said, as the point would be to explain, not to confuse by changing my mind out of the blue.
Oppen
FIXT n°1 fan
BigBoss, it was actually mentioned in Fallout 1. One of the arguments the Master has to create the Unity is exactly the fact discrimination existed, and that people fought over it and over other stupid reasons.
Your question is "will you be OK with that?". My answer is, "myeah, don't really care, as long it's not a stupidly designed faction; also, it was already done, discrimination has been exposed already, even color biased". Other than that, I'm with naossano, there is no need for it as it's been already contemplated enough.
Your question is "will you be OK with that?". My answer is, "myeah, don't really care, as long it's not a stupidly designed faction; also, it was already done, discrimination has been exposed already, even color biased". Other than that, I'm with naossano, there is no need for it as it's been already contemplated enough.
Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
The moment you introduce Nazis outside of a WWII setting you inmediately relinquished your right to be taken as anything other than shlock.
BigBoss
Your Local Scrub
In specific I wasn't telling you personally to shut up.
It was in general direction and good faith.
BUT, I would like to point out here, that this is why Fallout couldn't do this. For this very reason. People make small things into something huge. They take offence waaaayyy to easily.
"Oh if you put Nazis in Fallout your a schmuck". First of all, its just a game. Are you really so offended by Nazis that you are going to be this big of a pansy about it?
If we know anything it is that history repeats itself. This is most likely the main lesson the Fallout series has taught us.
Anyways, back on topic.
They would be ok for a small faction, as the BOS was in NV or like the Fiends, but putting them as a main faction or a main enemy would ruin the game. Or like some kind of tribe that descended from a Neo-Nazi family.
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Walpknut
This ghoul has seen it all
Who said 1. Schmuck and 2. That it was a matter of finding something offensive?
Having Nazis in your story when not even in a WWII setting tends to be the thing some teenager does to seem edgy (it can work, but most of the time it doesn't), we already have a lot of factions in Fallout that do the whole discrimination bit without the need to have like "Oh god, look at them nazis bro. So evil kill them".
Having Nazis in your story when not even in a WWII setting tends to be the thing some teenager does to seem edgy (it can work, but most of the time it doesn't), we already have a lot of factions in Fallout that do the whole discrimination bit without the need to have like "Oh god, look at them nazis bro. So evil kill them".
BigBoss
Your Local Scrub
What are you talking about? The comment wasn't directed at anyone it was in general.
Why do people keep thinking I mean them. You guys aren't that special. (Just a joke, don't take it serious).
If I was talking about you wouldn't I just quote you directly?
naossano
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Again it would probably remain a divergence but i went specifically on this forum despite the langage barrier because people here tend to discuss in great lenghts about many Fallout subjects, contrary to other forum in which discussions don't last.
About the offense, i got it mainly for the shutting up thing. (and no backing up, which i think i did)