No more VATS

Makenshi

Makenshi

Ahoy, ye salty dogs!
Is there any topic about this already? Search told me no, but it can be wrong. Here it goes, anyway.

I've been playing Skyrim and there is an Archery perk that makes a sort of "bullet time that drains stamina". Just a minute ago, I was looking at a video of Max Payne 3, which of course shows bullet time (seems it will be as awesome as earlier, if not better). And then I remembered a New Vegas mod (I did not try it yet, but surely will) that adds bullet time as an option - use AP for VATS or BT, you choose "on the fly", anywhere anytime.

So the question is: should a bullet time mode be added to the VATS, or replace it completely? BY Bethesda/Obsidian/etc, not by modders - I'm talking official stuff here, stuff they should deliver on launch. I'm favorable to both:

  • VATS could be more helpful in sniping if the target acquisition range was the same as the LoS or the weapon range, but it's still good right now to land some sneak attack criticals.

  • BT would be awesome for RT combat, specially in 3rd person. I hate this "almost forced" FPRPG shit (if the ranged combat sucks at 3rdP, it IS almost forced, imo), I want to see my character in action all the time, his apparel and his weapons, etc.

So, opinions anyone?
 
I don't like VATS but that doesn't mean I don't use it. VATS is overpowered and the game is built in such a way it is kind of expected that I use it. I think replacing it with bullet time is a good idea.
 
I like this idea-

For example, when trying to peg a dragon in mid flight, the 2nd perk slows it down well enough that you can lead the shot. That would be much more fun in Fallout where guns are the primary method of combat.
 
V.A.T.S. was a holdover to try and preserve the targeted shots of Fallout 1 and 2. As iffy as Bethesda's maintenance of the the integrity of the series' feel and canon often was, they at least tried to remain cognizant of keeping nominal links to the originals. To swap out V.A.T.S. for bullet time would be a huge step towards making it even less like Fallout and more like "Generic Retrofuture Next-Gen Shootout," imo.

Then again, V.A.T.S. is basically realtime with pause, which is even less desirable in a shooter with RPG elements than it is in an actual RPG. The ideal solution (aside from making the next game turn-based and isometric, herp derp) would be to keep V.A.T.S., but give it a complete overhaul and make some serious tweaks to how the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system, particularly weapons skills, work in a 3d realtime environment. If there was some actual difficulty to the game's fights and the combat called for any more than a token amount of strategy, the choice of when and how to use targeted shots could be so, so much more than an "I win" button.
 
VATS is one of those halfway houses RTwP things that don't actually manage to simulate TB play or make combat more tactical. It's a cheat button. If anything, it'd be better if they just foxus on making it a competent shooter, since they're going RTFP anyway.

Don't know if bullettime would add much. Short bullettime like they did in Skyrim, maybe, but again, that's basically just a cheat button. Unless you balance your game around it, like Max Payne did, it usually doesn't add much.
 
I like Yamu's ideas, much better solutions. Sadly, Beth most likely won't use them... :(


@Ben: the second perk allows for arrow guiding? That's just ridiculous, good thing I didn't put another point there. "Arrow time" is useful, I admit, but projectile guiding like in Bulletstorm is annoying and "cheatty".


@Kharn: I'm bad ass in shooters with good mechanics (CoD, etc), but can't hit shit in F:NV/Skyrim because the zig-zag of NPCs is ridiculous. Thus, the existence of VATS/BT prevented me from throwing the games out of the window. For this reason, I don't think the "arrow time" is a cheat (on Vats I strongly agree with you, tho); hell, I hardly sed archery before getting that perk because (trained with Faendal up until lv50).

In the end, I agree with you that Bath games should be vastly improved in the shooting department (mechanics, etc etc), but since I strongly believe FPRPG sucks - and thus, hope they improve the 3rd person factor -, some balanced bullet time should be introduced as well.

And VATS, like you say, is a cheat, so if it stays, it should be much more limited in some aspects to reduce that bad feeling (maybe limiting the number of uses between certain intervals, like a cooldown), as well as improved in others (target acquisition range, etc).
 
Makenshi said:
@Ben: the second perk allows for arrow guiding? That's just ridiculous, good thing I didn't put another point there. "Arrow time" is useful, I admit, but projectile guiding like in Bulletstorm is annoying and "cheatty".
Click to expand...

No, there is no 'guiding'. Leading a shot means you aim in the target's suspected direction of travel to compensate the delay in firing.
 
VATS is good for Action-RPG-s, but not for 1st person shooters. I never used it in Fallout 3.
 
I am going to go on the record and say that I like VATS. I tend to use it about 50% of the time. The rest of the time I like to use bare sights. The shotgun is pretty effective up close with or without VATS. I don't think I would like it if they took VATS out and made it more like a shooter. That rubs me wrong for some reason.

Quite a few mods have made VATS much more tolerable IMO.
 
I'm 50/50 on it. In one hand. It's nice to blow up someone's bland, generic face with a Double-barrel shotgun up close to his/her face in slow motion.

In the other hand. It becomes very dull & slow the more you get used to.
I got used to it in 3 minutes after being introduced to it and barely use it.

Sort of makes action points a bit needless if one knows what they are doing in real-time very efficiently.

I'm not sure what else you can do with VATS & Action points though. Seems sort of wasteful if Action points is used in VATS only, though I would have no idea what else action points can be used for.
 
get rid of the first person shooter BS
its crap

go back to conditional turn based

Final fantasy 12 showed you can have a conditional turn based strategic system that works- and would very well with fallout and the SPECIAL system

and gambits were genius-

falout 4- with FF12 battle system pls
 
VatS was essential on my shitty PC. In a fight I could handle a couple of guys with a good enough framerate, but get to any of the big fights like the second battle of hooverdam, and I would have never beaten these fights.
 
if they use V.A.T.S. they have to make the recharge time for the AP MUCH SLOWER so it can't be used every 2 seconds. and it needs to have some kind of a drawback to balance it.
 
I didn't mind the combat system in FO3. I thought it was fairly realistic in terms of how hard it is to shoot someone while, at the same time, running around in circles trying to avoid being shot.
Though, I wish that your character could follow up on their shot. Not, in the case of lever and bolt action weapons, point the firearm completely away from their target while they cock it.
If you have time to line up that perfect shot in real time, that's great, I like that we have that option.
If you don't want to think about it, go into VATS and risk letting the 'dice' decide if you get hit while you're making your targeted shots.

The combat it's self I think was the problem. The AI wants to get as close to you as possible almost every time, which removes the usefulness of finding cover from which to shoot.
If firearm damage were more realistic, maybe the AI wouldn't be so eager to jump out and run at you. Adversely, if firearms and ammo were more of a rarity, they, and you might be willing to take the risk of charging with a crowbar rather than potentially waste your ammo, or your one shot from something that takes a while to reload, like a crossbow.

While acknowledging that Fallout is not Mad Max. I just watched the Road Warrior(Even god's lost track of how many time's I've watched it.) and I noticed there are only three actual firearms in that entire movie. Max's shotgun is empty for most of it. Everybody else is using improvised arrow launchers, bows and arrows and melee weapons. It really sets the mood for wasteland scavenging.
In FO2, finding a gun still feels somewhat special up until you get to Vault City. I wish that feeling that you've found something valuable remained throughout the entire game.

I definitely don't want it to become more combat oriented in an FPS way. I like the idea of being able to use a weapon outside of whatever combat mode we happen to be using to interact with the environment, too. So I can't say I want it entirely turn based either. I think it just needs to become less about shooting, over all.
 
Moonrabbit said:
I didn't mind the combat system in FO3. I thought it was fairly realistic in terms of how hard it is to shoot someone while, at the same time, running around in circles trying to avoid being shot.
Though, I wish that your character could follow up on their shot. Not, in the case of lever and bolt action weapons, point the firearm completely away from their target while they cock it.
If you have time to line up that perfect shot in real time, that's great, I like that we have that option.
If you don't want to think about it, go into VATS and risk letting the 'dice' decide if you get hit while you're making your targeted shots.

The combat it's self I think was the problem. The AI wants to get as close to you as possible almost every time, which removes the usefulness of finding cover from which to shoot.
If firearm damage were more realistic, maybe the AI wouldn't be so eager to jump out and run at you. Adversely, if firearms and ammo were more of a rarity, they, and you might be willing to take the risk of charging with a crowbar rather than potentially waste your ammo, or your one shot from something that takes a while to reload, like a crossbow.

While acknowledging that Fallout is not Mad Max. I just watched the Road Warrior(Even god's lost track of how many time's I've watched it.) and I noticed there are only three actual firearms in that entire movie. Max's shotgun is empty for most of it. Everybody else is using improvised arrow launchers, bows and arrows and melee weapons. It really sets the mood for wasteland scavenging.
In FO2, finding a gun still feels somewhat special up until you get to Vault City. I wish that feeling that you've found something valuable remained throughout the entire game.

I definitely don't want it to become more combat oriented in an FPS way. I like the idea of being able to use a weapon outside of whatever combat mode we happen to be using to interact with the environment, too. So I can't say I want it entirely turn based either. I think it just needs to become less about shooting, over all.
Click to expand...



True the shotgun was my go to because the ai always runs up on you.

As much as I'd like it to be more of the mad max weapon feel we can almost be sure it wont with the popularity of 3 and NV and in vegas you have the gun runners and all.
 
Yeah, it is fairly well established that guns are somewhat common in the fallout universe. Though, it could take place a couple decades down the road from the other games, also depending on the location, guns could just be less common there.
Yes, most of the US and Canada have no shortage of firearms, unless it takes place in parts of the country that, in general had less of everything before the war, or where the environment may be particularly hard on guns, like near the ocean.

But also, the guns themselves aren't so much the problem. I do like the variety. It's just how easy they are to find, how common the ammo is, and how unrealistic the damage level is.
 
Use bullet time. It works seamlessly. Consumes AP over time.
Project Nevada has it well integrated in perks and cybernetic implants.
 
Got NV Ultimate, installed it with these:

"Really Over the Shoulder" mod (third person as effective as first, to hell with this fps-rpg hybrid bullshit);
"Bullet Time" mod;
"Asuka's HUD" mod (for a way WAY better crosshair).
"Fixed Autoaim" mod (vailla aim is broken, bullets make curves towards the center of targets, creating bizarre situations);

They alone turned the game into a whole new and highly enjoyable experience.

It seems, imo, that I was right in claiming that bullet time is a must for this game. No problem with the game having both systems (VATS and BT), so the player has more choices, but I hardly touch the VATS button now.

I'm using a HUGE list of mods, of course, but these three are the basis of my current fun.
 
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