Old School weaponry

Lord 342 said:
The FG42, the Luger, and the Japanese sword (only one in game). Thus there would be something for melee characters as well as gunners... often the game forgot one type of character or the other existed...
You're not still harping on about putting a katana in are you. :roll:

the_move said:
And I am sure with all the accessoires and gimmicks plus good, yet fitting and accurate stats and characteristics almost every player
would like to have that baby.
Hmm not me, I know let's ask the devs not to make any guns for the game, instead release it with a weapons editor which allows you to create any weapon you so please and stick in the game. I'm sure that'd be cheaper than coming up with all the art for all these guns.
 
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
Hmm not me, I know let's ask the devs not to make any guns for the game, instead release it with a weapons editor which allows you to create any weapon you so please and stick in the game. I'm sure that'd be cheaper than coming up with all the art for all these guns.

Maybe you are not into pistols, then. Anyway, I do not like
editors. There you can simply create a "50 Hex, 1AP, 999 damage,
gun". No real fun!

However it was much fun for me to find the Alien Blaster in FO1.
I prefer finding unique weapons in games instead of creating them
on my own.
 
A US Military ceremonial sword, perhaps? Cavalry, Navy, Boyscouts whatever, it'd wouldn't be a very good weapon but it would make a good quest item. It's been discussed here amongst other places. But I'd prefer an axe, much more useful.
 
Well about the sword I think it was decided that *one* japanese sword appearing as a WWII souvenir would not break the setting. Swords or all stripes falling from the sky WOULD. I'll stick to that concept.

Axes are great, though. I've talked about axes a bunch of times before but suffice it to say they fit the game perfectly. Great survival tool as well as weapon.

As to the nifty Luger pistol, well, I know that common issue lugers were taken as souvenirs a lot. A whole big kit like that would not be as likely. The one Japanese sword is OK because they were *popular* souvenirs. So were regular issue Lugers. I'm not saying that there was no lucky GI who got to take home a fully kitted out Luger with every goody on the planet, but the odds of one showing up in the game go down sharply. And besides, what're the odds that all those pieces would be kept? Perhaps though that "snail" magazine could be found elsewhere, in possession of a fellow like Edlrige, to be fitted to the gun if and only if the PC brought it to him. But the odds of a whole kit like that making it through the apocalypse unmolested are not too good...
 
Lord 342 said:
As to the nifty Luger pistol, well, I know that common issue lugers were taken as souvenirs a lot. A whole big kit like that would not be as likely. The one Japanese sword is OK because they were *popular* souvenirs. So were regular issue Lugers. I'm not saying that there was no lucky GI who got to take home a fully kitted out Luger with every goody on the planet, but the odds of one showing up in the game go down sharply. And besides, what're the odds that all those pieces would be kept? Perhaps though that "snail" magazine could be found elsewhere, in possession of a fellow like Edlrige, to be fitted to the gun if and only if the PC brought it to him. But the odds of a whole kit like that making it through the apocalypse unmolested are not too good...

You misunderstood. This is no WWII Luger, fielded by
soldiers as sidearm. That is an "Lange Pistole 08" from the First
World War
. It´s not a kit either. It was a series product in WWI.

During the First World War this pistol was a "carbine replacement"
for Artillery troops. "Ari 08" is it's nickname.

If you can read german, here you go:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luger

So there are 3 possibilties to place this gun into the game quite well:

1. Quest reward.
2. Special encounter
3. A "War History" Museum location, where you can retrieve it from
a showcase. This could also go under the previous option or
being a regular location.
 
the_move said:
You misunderstood. This is no WWII Luger, fielded by
soldiers as sidearm. That is an "Lange Pistole 08" from the First
World War
. It´s not a kit either. It was a series product in WWI.

So there are 3 possibilties to place this gun into the game quite well:

1. Quest reward.
2. Special encounter
3. A "War History" Museum location, where you can retrieve it from
a showcase. This could also go under the previous option or
being a regular location.

Well we are talking at cross purposes. I'm saying that WWII issue lugers were common enough to have in the game as more than a one-off piece.

I know enough about the Luger Ari 08 to know what the idea was behind it. It's old, yes, but what I'm saying only is that a rare weapon like that would only come up in a unique circumstance, like what you suggested. We could have just about any weapon, no matter how unlikely, come up in a unique circumstance; just look at the 9mm Mauser, which was mostly a WWI gun; the Alien Blaster which was hard to get in Fallout and even harder in FO2, the Red Ryder LE BB guns which were quite unlikely, etc. You just wouldn't find random punks trooping around the wastes with Ari '08s, Mannlichers, fg42s, or LeMats. Random Punks would have UZIs, MAC-10s, armalites, shotguns, hunting rifles, etc. So it's really up to the devs exactly *what* weird, random weapons make it in as specials, but I know what I'm hoping for, and I guess you do to. :)

While we're at it, how about another homage to a movie pistol, since we've already got Deckard's pistol from Bladerunner, why not the Bretta M93R-AG from Robocop? In keeping with the tradition it could just be called "AG Pistol", and would of course have burst-fire mode.
berettam39r2.jpg
 
Yeah, Beretta M-93R AG would be nice and the optional 3-burst of
this gun would make it really a popular weapon among "one handers" and pistol fanatics. Too bad, it is not really "old school".

I don´t mind, if weapons are rare in a game as long as their ammo
isn´t. :D

Another nice and "fitting" pistol would be a Center Contender like Lance Henriksen had in Hard Target.
(I so want such a baby in a post-nuclear game). Sure it is single shot, yet it is very powerful and accurate.
And IMHO very stylish!

976500971-1.jpg


12inchg2vrsm.jpg
12inchg2sm.jpg
 
Target pistols would be seen just like anything else would. If it can fire a round it can kill and it would be picked up and used. Shooting once is better than not shooting at all. A target pistol would have a large accuracy bonus but use either small rounds (22LR, most likely) or be single shot. Still, they're weapons and, like all sporting arms should make a showing. Gun sport is popular and its weapons would definitely be taken up for more traditional purposes after the bombs fall...
 
OK, I didn't know that. A pistol like that would make a good weapon for people who take the "one hander" trait if it's still around, or a good way to put a big freakin' gun in the early stages since it would require to be reloaded each round, yet could still give the PC knockdown power when he needs it.
 
Yep, absolutely right! Plus, it would definately have style! Especially
if it had a good sound!

To complement the line of stylish single shooters I
would like to see some anti-tank rifles. Those sport
calibres from 7.92mm to even 20mm+ (PzB 41/42stationary). High damage dealers!
The 784(r) is a semi-auto though with a 5 round internal magazine,
but the rest are single loaders.
internet source:
http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust6.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bilderseiten/panzerbuchsen-R.htm#PzB41

requiem_for_a_starfury said:
They made a sequel, was it as cheesy as the first game?

Well it's problem is, it does never run fluid on any machine,
although the grafx are moderate at best. Yet it is exciting and
features nice weaponry and gimmicks, like a "Bergmann MP18" SMG
with "Zielgerät 1229 Vampir" (Night Sight).
 
Move, just because it's a game doesn't mean you can toss whatever you like into it. Consistency of the fantasy is more important than whatever a bunch of internet kiddies have a hardon for. Ask Rosh.

The Artillery Luger was never issued in huge numbers like the standard P08. It was just for what it's called... Artillery crews and the like who didn't need a full powered rifle. Some were used in the assault of trenches because the submachinegun hadn't been invented yet. Regardless of that, the Luger was never a very good military pistol. It was fragile and jammed easily. The Artillery Luger was hurt even more by the temperamental snail magazine that couldn't even be reloaded by hand easily. The Mauser C96 "Broomhandle" was a better military pistol and a better SMG substitute with the stock attached. - Colt
 
I agree about the Ari 08 entirely; it's just too oddball to show up in the capacity of someone's war trophy. It *could* but there are about a thousand other equally unlikely guns that could as well.

The Mauser, though, was in fact available in an SMG variant with full automatic; there's one shown briefly in "The Fifth Element". It's inacurate (like all full-auto pistols) but since you're basically holding a tiny machine gun had lots of up-close power. Burst-mode pistols would be cool, like the M93R-AG I suggested, which being a classic Sci-Fi homage, fits the theme a little beter. The regular M93R is equally as viable, I suppose, but probably a little too recent(Being a real world gun), depending on how fast and loose we're playing with timelines...
 
You're talking about machinepistols. The Mauser was called the Schnellfeuer (fast fire) and had the selector on the left side. Machinepistols are probably the hardest firearm after sniper rifles to learn to use and practice with. If you do learn though, you have the deadliest close quarters weapon in the world (discounting grenades of course). They should be used like shotguns, throwing out small bursts of lead at a target up close, but otherwise used as a normal pistol. Unfortunately, the difference between them and submachineguns in game would be very smal. - Colt
 
As a matter of progression most anthropologists will claim that the spear was the first constructed weapon (the first weapon as we understand the word would have been a sharp rock or stick), as man would have figured out how to sharpen a stick into making it useful.

The next weapon (once man figured out how to attach stone to a stick) would be the axe.

So as far as melee weapons go spears and AXES would be the most common melee weapons. You might make a case for a hammer since early axes were bludgeoning weapons, and thus it was really just attaching a heavy object to the end of a stick.

Swords were developed much later in history and as such primitive cultures in Fallout will not have achieved the level of technology to make one, and advanced cultures aren't going to give a crap because they are producing black powder weapons.

As a matter of utility knives would be rather common. I emphasize utility because knives are not going to be as common for weapons because in a fight a knife generally loses to a spear, and thus you will see knives as hunting tools, carving tools, and as a general tool used to pry open things since most people aren't going to have access to a crowbar.

Machete's might be common for jungle mexico, but not the heartland of the US. And as far as patchwork jobs we would be more inclined to find a metal pole turned into a spear or a metal scrap turned into an axe.

Now I would definitely expect slings and arrows to exist, and as far as range weapons go those would be far preferable to the makeshift or relic throwing knives and darts that would be found. A game dart just isn't all that lethal, and most makeshift throwing knives would not be balanced very well.


Now as far as patchwork jobs that I would go for: thermite for anti-power armor and white phosphorus for anti-personnel. Thermite is a mixture of aluminum powder and rust (preferably black rust, but red rust works), and it burns at several thousand degrees C. Now a scientifically minded individual might know the proper chemical ratio of 1-3 aluminum to iron oxide. And I would think it very easy to scrounge rust off old steel nor do I imagine finding aluminum to grind down would be hard to find either (especially what with people not building large scale machinery anymore). Thus incendiary weapons could become a reality. *Note* Thermite has a high ignition temperature, thus something else is needed to jump start the reaction. Magnesium or white phosphorous would both be reasonable assumptions for starting methods. And as far as WP goes, according to online, its properties have been known since prior to the 20th century, and thus we could probably pretty reasonably expect it to have continued use in the Fallout world.

If its a home made gas grenade, then I would look out for household cleaners and cleansers. Assuming that people hadn't raided those things already (I don't imagine that those would be raided by scroungers since they aren't useful to people post-war barring the occassional hygiene minded person). Mixing ammonia and bleach produces chlorine gas which as we all know is an effective chemical warfare agent

But in all honesty without a machine shop it would be hard to produce good makeshift weapons (I mean barring primitive stuff). After the war I would assume just about every hardware store within driving distance would have been raided for supplies. So I imagine by now only the Brotherhood or large towns might have consolidated anything resembling a machine shop. But see once you have the proper tools I would start making brass jackets for bullets and work towards the creation of boiler to carry out the bessemer process on old steel to help remove enough impurities to net useful metal (not sure what I would use since high grade materials would be hard to come by, and I'm not holding out for a molybdenum water cooled crucible to just be lying around some place for the taking).
 
I call bullshit.

No man with a spear would be stupid enough to dismiss the usefulness of a shorter blade. Spearmen have always liked carrying a short sword, dagger or knife for backup because it was difficult to fend off someone with a spear if he managed to come past the point or break the pole.

I could imagine a gun fighter would love to have a decent backup too, and probably not something that requires lots of space or would take lots of time to equip.

Something akin to the Viking/Celtic scram would be a logical development. A large knife usable as all-round utility knife and close-combat weapon (potentially with a stabby point like the scram, too).

Full-blown traditional swords with quillons and weighed blades would feel quite out of place though.
 
You can call bullshit all you like but it doesn't change the fact that I am right.

As a general rule weapons with greater reach will beat weapons with shorter reach. And spears certainly classify as having greater reach than a knife. In addition to being an effective melee weapon the spear can be thrown (without modification for balance like an axe or knife).

Spear users did have trouble fending off attackers which managed to get up close, but in the world of fallout that means you are going to be facing down an axe or hammer. Yet again the knife loses in terms of reach to the axe or hammer which quite simply has a longer haft. I am sure that spear users probably would carry small blade (not a knife) as a backup weapon, but if it gets the point where you have to use it, then you are probably screwed.

Point being is that the knife is going to fall out of favor as a tool of combat. I can honestly say (having been in a fight against someone with a knife), that having to draw a new weapon in a fight is a very bad situation, and that the reach a knife affords is not enough to contend with larger weapons. I would take a policeman's nightstick over a knife in a fight handsdown.

If someone has disarmed you, broken your weapon, or got too close for you to use yours, then you can expect to live for another second. Now maybe if you are lightning on the draw you could save yourself, but I'm not holding out on that. In the final analysis the knife is not effective enough to contend versus other melee weapons, and versus ranged weapons you need to be considering alternate strategies (like ambush) because a knife versus a gun or even a bow and arrow at range the knife user is very often screwed.


To repeat: A machete is not a good flavor choice for Fallout. The short sword (or machete equivalent) would be the backup weapon of choice of spear users (or a light axe), but a short sword or machete has no real place in Fallout except maybe as a relic of the past. Blades of that nature really just wouldn't get constructed. Barring a source of obsidian (or some other type of volcanic glass) stone just isn't very good at making blades. An axe or bludgeon is a much more realistic choice both in terms of technology and in terms of material usage.
 
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