OOC->Chapter 2: Lone Wanderers

The ends and the means

An interesting response. I also hope that you did not feel I was being judgmental before, for that wasn't the point. Rather my point was that characters are best when they are complex, and that complexity often means being able to tease out what their moral stand, what they believe is right and wrong, and the choices they make. The second point was that a story should allow the lines to get blurry, confusing, distorted, dark and forces people to make tough choices.

The ends justify the means approach is well articulated by better people and I think we might all agree that at an extreme levels, the rule requires exception. Where that line is drawn depends on us, individually. But on this point, I withhold any judgment.

I have had this pm with Gunslinger on this issue, the danger of creating a static character and the need to evolve. No single character is 100% complete. Each is growing and changing. That includes on issues such as morals, and the willingness to, sometimes accept that good people can do bad things, but also that there are some bad things good people just cannot do.
What is that line?

There is also the issue of character that transend notions of good and evil but involve how we define ourselves, individually. I think of the five major characters, Skik and Grim are the least developing. IN part that's because Skik's character has not been that visible and Grim has been unconscious. But I think the other characters should continue to grow as the story progresses.

We have Rogue's story about her life since her family was taken, how that shapes her and what she is looking for. We also have Gabriel's situation in gaining the trust of others and being able to live as both a participant and am outsider. ANd there is Caleb's story of his role in the group.

Again, to come back to a point earlier. This is just fucking around, not shakespeare. We should be having fun. But I think everyone who is writing is probably interested in writing as a hobby. Otherwise these posts wouldn't be so damn long. Regardless of the plot of the story, we should be growing as writers as well.
 
I agree completely. Don't worry, you didn't come off as judgmental.

I remarked, just the other day, that participating in this online role-play was excellent practice as a writer and that I hoped it would stimulate my creativity and, as you said, prompt evolution in my writing.

I agree that while the 'ends justify the means' theory works some of the time it has its limits.
Hitler probably sold the genocide of the jews as a necessary evil - If anyone saw Conspiracy, the dramatisation fo the meeting which decided on gas-cahmbers and death camps as the answer to the Jewish question, the people at the meeting were not thrilled about butchering millions of people but they thought it was for the greater good - they pursued the 'ends justifies the means' with terminal intensity and they went too far. you do not murder millions of people just because of their race. That is evil.

Enough of this deep moral, philosophical debate. As you say, this is not Shakepseare, though I must admit that I have enjoyed this little jaunt into the discussion of morality. Considering how many people have died in this story so far and how killing seems to be the way of life for so many of our characters, morals appear to get left at the door, in a way.

Thanks for this opportunity.

P.S. What are we doing about the top-cop problem? Is it still Frank, if so, is he actually bad or has he been coerced?
What's the group consensus. I could just write what I want to write considering my character is the one who is going to end his life (probably) but I care about what you guys think is appropriate.

I've said already that I liked Gunslingers character, Frank, and that Gunslinger had presented him sympathetically, therefore I am in favour of the bad guy not being him (that said I don't mind the idea of Frank being an unwilling accomplice)

What do you people think?
 
What about Frank

I am glad you are having fun with this. To be honest I look at this as an opportunity to practice writing, develop plot and character, and construct an overarching story. So its been quite a bit of fun to me. I think I have figured out who the real bad guys are and what they are after, but I think that will take a couple more chapters to get to. (In other words probably another 600 posts!)

As for this chapter, I think we are nearing the end and I think its getting a bit old. Time to move on.

My plan for tonight and tomorrow is to write about what is happening in Tabis (probably people are beginning to wonder what is up and introduce a new person). I hope the dark man escapes or moves on. He's almost finished there anyway.

On the issue of morality. I would hope this is less comic book good guy vs. bad guy and more the moral ambiguity of LA Confidential. There you had many people with dirty hands but driven towards doing the "right thing", but you had some very bad people as well with their own agendas. That's kind of how I see this.

As to Frank. If you don't want to whack him, here are three possible ways out, but this will complicate the story for Gabriel. But that might not be so bad.

(1) Frank is doing the most efficient thing based on his limited knowledge As the Blade as a bad reputation and is widely seen as a trouble maker, Frank sees cutting off the group and the slavers as a way to get rid of two problems at the same time. That some of Tabis's better folks (Yacob and Horus, and the borderguards) are stuck out there too is making this a difficult choice, but what the hell, it's a tough job.

(2) Frank is under pressure from the town council, or a prominent member of the town council, to respond to this problem and that's why he decided to block up the gate. Actually, we might say that one of his underlings decided to block the gate and Frank is just going along with it.

(3) Frank is working under false information, perhaps fed to him by a corrupt cop, the dark man or someone else. Intentionally or unintentionally to serve the true enemy.

You could mix it up with any of these three situations above, and if Gabriel learns the truth, would not have to do the dirty deed. But of course that makes for a more complicated bit.

Personally, I can see Frank getting a payoff to close the gate behind the slavers. Like most cops in the wasteland, the badge is a license to extract money by violence and do special favors. This could be an easy way to make a few bucks.

Also there is the lingering if forgotten story of Grim's treasure (liberated from the dead Kroeger, who had liberated it from the dead Mckinner's safe). Frank might have found out what happened and has figured he could "do his public duty" and then latter "collect the coin."

So Reaper, you have a lot of ways to play this. Note that if you do turn the police chief around, then there will probably be a rescue move and this will probably be quite a success.

Another plot that could be worked on include- reconciling the ghouls with the humies in Tabis, as well as "does Yacob ever catch a deathclaw (or did the deathclaw eat him)?" This could involve the development of a gas to kill the deathclaw in the Wainright Park neighborhood. There is also Skik looking to his sources.

SO there are still lots of places to go (quests to finish). What happens to the chief I think is now in Reaper's hands. And as noted before Gabriel might be a bad guy afterall.

In the Fort I would imagine its getting late, and Jeeva will be sending some men out of the fort to fix the wire so it can be electrified. This could be interesting (as well as an opportunity to trim back the number of slavers). It might also be a chance for the slavers and non-slavers to become a closer group (at least those that survive).

In the Fort- Caleb, Rogue, Wally, Ibis, Ferris, Tia (the guard), Three unnamed Ghouls and about 9 slavers (Jeeva, Topaz, Ox, Fury, Ozby, Knox. and three others who are either unnamed or who have been forgotten). Outside, many very clever, very mean, very hungry deathclaws.
 
Thanks for the help with the situation. I will think about the Tabis situation and prepare a post that will probably be done tomorrow.

The fort situation can carry on at its own pace and is unlikely to be greatly effected by what happens in Tabis, unless Gabriel can coerce the chief into changing his position (but that is unlikely)

By the way, I like your comment about LA Confidential, great film, and you made good sense of the 'every one has dirty hands in the real world' idea. Good reference, and I agree - I prefer the the story and setting to promote the moral ambiguity idea. That is much better than the clear cut good guys vs bad guys. It makes a better story and is more realistic given the harsh world of the wasteland.


ANyway, I will stop dithering and get on with getting that Tabis post ready. Don't worry, Welsh, I dount Gabriel will take on the town and cause a massacre.
 
With regard to the Aliens people question, I believe i have found answers, though I am ashamed that my memory, which normally demostrates preternatural sharpness when films are involved, let me down.

I think that the blond guy was Pvt Drake, played by Mark Rolsten. Oh and I checked about Vasquez and it she is the stepmom in Terminator 2.
 
Just a short request. I introduced a new character in my last IC post. Be gentle with him for now, I want him to stay alive for a little while. I'm not saying he is immune to danger but I would appreciate you allowing his life span to remain long enough for him to help the story/group/inter-character relationships, stuff in general. He will also be a handy fighter so he will lend some brawn to the already strong combat team we have going here.
 
Plus if he get's involved, by the looks he could be a great place suplier of weopons and anumitions. Also underground criminal contacts could be helpfull, especially if he is a well known gun runner through out the area.
 
Concerning the darkman:

I don't know if you mind, Welsh, since introduced the darkman, but I've seemed to make a character out of him. Before, he was but an invisible hand working behind the Tabis takeover but, now, I'm hoping that he has a bit more character.

Welsh, I know you've read The Stand. I'm modeling our darkman after the original darkman himself, Randall Flagg (I borrow horrendously from Stephen King; I'm not *that* original). I highly recommend that you guys, Reaper and Rogue Hex, read it sometime.

Anyway, I believe the darkman is insane, or at least eccentric. The chilling laugh is evidence enough. He's not full-blown mad but crazy enough to not fear most threats. Secondly, as for his appearance, I'm picturing him sorta like Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction (the guy playing Jules, Vincent Vega's partner) except he's dressed in a leather get up. He's not necessarily an assassin, but he knows how to turn himself dim, or become inconspicuous for you laymen.

Plot thus far: The darkman is an agent for the organization, agency, or whatever (I guess we'll find out the name of the organizaiton in chapter 3). He's sort of a liason between the agency and the raiders and slavers. I've already revealed how the agency took over most of the Slaver's Guild in order to control ignorant manpower (sending Jeeva and his commando, for instance, to make an undoubtedly suicide rush and using the slavers to secure the borders around Tabis). The organization merely bought off the raiders with arms and promises of loot. The darkman was probably the one who connected McKinner with the help of Doctor Mandrake (a freelancer to the agency, sort of how Boba Fett was a freelancer to the Empire).

As for the entire police deal, the darkman supposedly made a deal with Frank Wachowski: his forces would be able to take out the Blade and his friends without any opposition from the police in exchange for them leaving Tabis alone. Of course, we all know that deal will never happen; the darkman will most likely turn on him. As for why Frank sent Neil and Paul when he knew about the slavers ploy, I guess he sent them as sacrifices to the media. Neil was the best cop on the force and Paul was young and he had a family. It will look good for Frank's public image if he at least tried to stop the slavers and it'll enrage the public against the slavers.
 
I have read a bit of the Stand and I have seen the 6 hour dramatisation with Gary Sinise as Stu and Jamie something as Randall Flagg. That was brilliant. Too long to be considered a movie, not enough installments for it to be a series but it was simply fantastic. Great music too - Don't Fear the Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult (not the gay bar in the Police Academy film, that is the Blue Oyster Club- ah, hilarious) is at the beginning when the camera pans through the science complex, showing all the dead scientist - just great.

As for the mental state of the Darkman, psychotic would probably cover it. Not actually insane, just acting with a completely twisted idea of right and wrong and an off kilter world perspective, while still retaining complete brain functions and operating without any cognative impairment.

I'm not entirely sure how Gabriel will handle Frank. As he was just trying to do the best for his town it is sort of justified but did he go too far? We'll just have to wait and see what Gabriel decides - thought getting Frank on our side would be helpful (I will think on it)

To kill or not to kill, that is the question. (deary me that was dodgy)
 
The Dark Man

Dear Gunslinger-

I really liked the Randall Flagg character in Stand, but remember, Flagg was not really insane, but a demon if a embodiment of the devil himself. What I like about the Stand was that Steven King took the notion of the end of the world and made that the beginning of something more surreal and spiritual, a confrontation of Good and Evil and the demand so faith. I always think of the Stand as dark christianity.

As for our darkman. I admit to borrowing a bit of Randall Flagg in his creation, but I wanted him tempered with a bit of the cool of Karem Abdul-Jabar in the Bruce Lee flick Game of Death, plus Mr. X from The X-Files. So this is a bit different. Our darkman is a puppetmaster. He doesn't like to come out of the shadows but will move pieces from the behind the scenes. I have an idea of what will eventually happen to the darkman that fits into the bigger plot.

As for his mental state, no I don't think he should be insane or even psychotic. There are two reasons for this. The first is that "insane" bad guys are easy and, at the end of the day, uninteresting. Its always easy to say, "Ah he was evil because he was crazy." It also allows us to make mistakes with him because we can always say, "Oh yeah, that's how we work out that plot point, its because the bad guy is nuts." Unless we could do an insane villian with the complexity of Hannibal Lector, I don't think we could do the darkman as an insane character well.

As for psychopathic/sociopathic tendencies. Mandrake may be sociopathic. He gets off on killing and torture and remember he chased us down the sewars more to get at Rogue than anything else. He was able to make excuses for his movements when we should have more quickly reported to his superiors. But that really was an exception.

The darkman should be a total operator. He's calm, cool, professional. If he came off nuts with Frank, its because he wants Frank to think he's nuts because that gives him leverage. It's a ploy, and the use of a ploy may be clever. Cool, calm, collected. Think of the Charles Bronson character in the Mechanic and that's the mental state of our darkman. Likewise, the calm, coldblooded nature of Mr. X.

The key here is that he's doing what he's doing not because he's nuts.

He's doing it because he believes its the right thing to do, and that it serves a higher purpose. What makes it more troubling is that he's doing it for completely rational reasons.

To quote Reaper, the darkman is completely playing 'the ends justifies the means" game.

Why play it like that? Because the bad guys here are doing what they are doing for more complicated reasons than we have yet to learn. The fellow I introduced earlier is a hint at that, but we won't figure out all of that until much much later in this story.

This fits into the issues of "what is evil?" "what's at stake in all of this?" and "What is the real story here, not just for our characters as individuals but for the world in which they live."
How I am thinking of this.

Oh as to the slavers. Yes there are undoubtably other slavers, but if we have them called in, the story will never get out of Tabis, and I for one am tired of this town. We got a road trip to Grey Cliffs to start and should start soon.

The reason why Jeeva and company are being taken out is because (1) they were the principle ones to extract slaves from Tabis to be shipped elsewhere (and they know where). and (2) they were the ones principly involved in the slaughter of the Blades. For the darkman, this is a question of cleaning up the evidence and keeping the conspiracy secret.

The conspiracies greatest vulnerability is becoming revealed.

Chapter 2 is nearly finished. The darkman is about to leave because he's becoming to visible and thus at risk. Besides, other forces are at work. His job was to get rid of the slavers.

Chapter 3 is the road trip to Grey Cliffs

Chapter 4 is the events at Grey Cliffs, and perhaps we learn more about the identity of the conspiracy, or at least what they are after.

Look, I don't want to hog up the overarching plot, and I am willing to share these ideas as well as the plot construction. So if this is too much let me know.

I like what we have done so far and I think its getting better. But I don't want to cheese it up or make it easy. I would rather make this strong and compelling. I think an easy shoot'em up with crazed badguys is something that those interplay bastards would create for Fallout on a console game in 3d Shoot up.

I would rather have a story that is truer to the original fallouts. Strong compelling characters, a plot that kicks, grim realities and harsh environments, difficult moral choices and a deep and complex plot.
 
Well, let's wet our feet in the debatable ocean of what counts as insane/psychotic. I dislike both terms, I'd rather call it *eccentric*.

Lemme give you an example, using Jules from Pulp Fiction. He's a perfectly normally guy, well, besides being a hitman. But he's got these nifty quirks: dressed in a suit, quoting Ezekiel, stuff that makes him seem so boss. I wouldn't call him insane but I'd call him "over-the-top".

That's kinda the vibe I feel for the darkman. He's beyond everything, on a higher echelon of thought than "normal" people are on. Randall Flagg, indeed a demon, is similiar to the darkman because he's lofty and and darkly charismatic. Always a happy grin on his face, the sorta grin that sets his followers on edge.

I only call the darkman mad because he doesn't come within the same mindset as other's. I guess insane can also mean oblivious; both indifferent to the consequences of others. That sick, twisted grin and the willingness to place his hands on the chief of police. No sense of fear at all. There's no definite term I can place on him; he reminds me of the student who mouths of against the teacher, not really caring about structure or reprisals.

On more thing. I say I model the darkman to Randall Flagg but only due to the wicked grin and chuckle. The fact that he can turn himself "dim" is not that unique (Gabriel and Mandrake can do this to lesser levels). And I just added the whole bit of the crying baby and the feelings of coldness just to illustrate that the darkman is one tough customer.

So yes, not mad, but twisted. How about that?
 
That is what I meant by psychotic. Not actually insane, just operating on different level, which includes the complete acceptance of violence as an acceptable tool.

Still, I like the cool customer feeling Welsh is going for. Similar to Gabriel but the Darkman is a more experienced operative. I wouldn't want to pick a fight with him (Gabe could maybe take him one on one in fair knife fight but then the Darkman would never, ever fight a fair fight, so Gabriel would lose)

Ignore the mental factors because, like you say, insanity always seems like a cheap get of jail free card for explaining the baddy's actions.

Hannibal Lecter is vaguely crazy in that he is completely immoral (he know what he is doing is wrong but does it anyway - Hitmen like Leon are amoral in that they know no better). In this case, it seems, Welsh you are following the misguided crusader idea - he thinks he is doing the right thing and will do anything to complete his mission. This makes him interesting and also explains why those who do not share his fervent beliefs in his own lofty ideals wil confuse his vehemence with insanity.
 
On the insanity-

I think of the darkman as kind of a intelligence agent, a believer in his cause, calculating and cold, secretive and mysterious. He's got it together and knows what he's doing. Sociopathic? Only as far as the rest of our characters have displayed sociopathic tendencies. Let's be honest, we are playing some pretty violent hombres. If they don't like killing, they sure do reach for their guns fast.

Mandrake is insane. He likes what he does. What he did and is doing to Claire is a joy, and the only dissatisfication he is currently feeling is that Caleb is still around and he hasn't gotten to Rogue yet. Hannibal Lector isn't exactly immoral as he eats only bad people. It's that he's sociopathic and a cannibal. Speaking of which I am considering a plot twist on that theme.

Darkman (whose name should be forthcoming) isn't like that. He's an agent, a skilled operator, a confident and capable man. He believes what he is doing is right (and I think eventually we will see why- and this is where the 'Ends justify the means" appraoch will have to be tested by all of us). If he seems crazy its to intimidate Frank. Dealing with the obviously insane gives an advantage to the insane (the danger of unpredictability).

The Darkman's problem right now is that he's too "in the clear," and "thus vulnerable." Part of the problem is that he is cleaning up.

Regardless, he's about to slip out until the next chapter. It's important that we run into him later, and this will give us another clue of what is going on. Other things are happening that will allow him to leave with an expectation that things will end up as he wishes.

To give that away might spoil the surprise.
 
Fair enough. I agree that it is better that the Darkman is sane because it makes him a more sinister enemy.

Also Hannibla was not, as you say, actually crazy but he was nasty - he killed the tow cops guarding him and the two paramedics in the ambulance he used to escape and the tourist whose identity he stole - not quite only killing bad people but your pints still stands so far as he did not kill all the time randomly just for a laugh - that is crazy. Getting off on inflicting pain (Mandrake) is a sign on being mentally unbalanced because people are not supposed to enjoy doing that kind of thing.

Our characters follow the path of being a warrior, if you can fight, is a much easier life than beinga farmer or trader - they have to fight bad crops, falling markets, intangibles they cannot control, a warrior can confront his enemy and win or lose. There is little uncertainty in a warrior's life, hence it can be seen as easier than a normal peasant's.
 
I haven't been posting lately and I guess an explanation is in order. Frankly, I'm a bit bored of the fortress setting. Granted, I like combat scenes but there's only so much that Caleb needs to kill. I could write about how Caleb blasts away some more deathclaws but that wouldn't be actually contributing.

So, to move the plot along, here's some suggestion:
1. A mad dash out of the fortress. Someone would have to hang back to maintain the generator and then to shut it off once the defenders get loose (one of the wounded slavers, maybe). Then there'd the gate would have to be breached and the police waiting around would have to be killed.
2. Wait it out for reinforcements. Skik has already recruited Bear and he can always pull out some more men. Plus, there's the Border Patrol that Welsh introduced and Grim's enigmatic ally. Eventually, once
3. Make a distraction. Gabriel is still loose in the city. He's an assassin. And Frank is expendable; he can be killed, despite his character. And if the chief of police is wasted, then the police squad waiting outside of the fortress would have to withdraw.
4. A dash to the sewers. This was already thought to be suicidal; the mad rush to the fortress even more so. But if the defenders could clear the way, they throw off the trail of the deathclaws, who I assume cannot fit through a manhole, and the police squad, who would never enter the sewers surrounded by deathclaws in the first place. We've never clarified what really happened to the ghouls. I'm inclinced to believe that the main outpost retreated back to The Reactor and Skik, Wally, and the other remaining ghouls are but a vanguard to keep watch of the entrance. With many of our characters seriously wounded, the help of the ghouls would be appreciable.

I'm sorry if my contribution at this point of the story has tapered off. I am honestly mired in a writer's block; you know I would be definitely writing if otherwise. But next chapter will have to be different since it's under Caleb's incentive (rescuing the Blade elders) that the party is traveling to Grey Cliffs. I've gone back and forth with NPCs in this chapter but it still doesn't cut the cake.

So, this chapter will end once the party is free of the fortress and once Frank is dealt with (once again, Reaper, feel free to set that fucker off). I'll post once I see an opening.

The Gunslinger,

Steve
 
Sorry I haven't posted recently. I have not been able to access the site since monday - I kept getting the 'Error - cannot find server' screen instead.

I have a plan for Gabriel's activities inside the town but I have to go off to school in a moment so it wil be a few hours before I can get it done.

Sorry for the delay, not really my fault. I will see what I can do this afternoon.
 
finishing 2nd

Sorry I have not posted. Its been near impossible to get on the site for the last two days.

I am kind of with Gunslinger on this. Lets finish up this plot and move on.

There are a couple of loose ends still needing to be cleaned up and I wll post again latter.

My thoughts for this chapter go like this-

Gabriel does whatever he has to in order to resolve the police situation.

While this is going on the borderguard captain and Nana, Yacob's wife, are gathering people to protest, and they will probably involve some of the local officials. If Frank is either killed or switches sides, there will probably be a second rescue effort by the town people, probably during the daylight. This should be easier than the efforts during the night hours and may require that the defenders of the fort break out as well.

The group in the fort should hold out till morning. The generator might give, in which case the deathclaw might attack, but the occupants should hold. There might be another move by the deathclaw or another surprise. But I will leave that up to you folks.

Ideally by tomorrow (thurs) Gabriel's business with Frank will be resolved. By Saturday the fort should be relieved.

So Chapter 3 should begin next week, although I am in favor of a short break.

There are things that need and should be resolved. I will write the darkman's exit, a message to Gabriel, and what happened to Fantasia (as well as the movement to support another rescue) either today or tomorrow. However, I also think that there is room for the characters to develop. Rogue and Caleb don't know each other well. Caleb's relationship with the slavers is still unfriendly. Caleb and Ibis have not yet talked. We could also have some hint as to what will happen to some of the NPCs. For example Finn is not going to be traveling much anymore. Fury may leave as well. Or some of these people may die.

I also agree with Caleb, just popping off deathclaw might not be that interesting. However, the generator may give out (if temporarily), making for some interesting changes.
 
Ok this is the day i didn't wan't to happen. Today i finally admited it was time to open the restricted envelope and reveal plan B!

Ok, enough of the above :)

I'm gonna have to leave this RP. I havn't found the time latly to even come on the net except to do research for college. Right now i am posting in the middle of my IT class.

I know for a fact that i proberly won't be able to post anything all of next week and possibly the week after due to exams which have started. Maybe just maybe i can post somthing this weekend but i wouldn't count on me for anything.

Once these next 2 weeks are over i hit study leave but most of my exams will allready be finished (How typical is that!) So i will have a whole load of free time on my hands then.

Untill then i doubt very much i will be able to stay with this!

I'll leave it up to you guys to decide what happens. From here on i hand Rogue over to you as an NPC, treat her how you like, you guys can decide weather she dies or not. I leave it completly up to you.

Good luck! Sorry.

John....
 
hope you'll be back

Hey Rogue-

Totally understand your situation. I am in the midst of exams and it promises to be a heavy summer.

If you can keep an eye on the board to see how the plot develops, great. Otherwise I hope you'll be back in a few weeks.

I can't see this chapter going much further. The story of the fort is almost over. I also think we could use a break before starting chapter 3, and a few weeks will work fine. This will also allow new characters to join up.

We will keep Rogue around as an NPC and hopefully the tender feelings of Gabriel will not become so intense that you return to the rather bizarre place of playing a character romantically involved in another. But you never know.

Hope to see you again in a few weeks. Your posts have been great. Good luck on your exams.
 
Well, Welsh. Twisted, yes. Unhealthily so, maybe. Good, definitely.

Very well done, I think. A fine example of the moral decay following the breakdown of society and civilisation.

I know that had I been in that boy's place and seen Claire in the back fo that wagon I would have tried to kill Mandrake. I would have of course died if this had been real. I may be a big guy and quite strong in real life but I know I wouldn't stand a chance against these baddies we describe. Still, I like to think that if I were living in these terrible times, I would always try to do the right thing - in this case, attacking Mandrake for causing such suffering would be the right thing to do.

So, good writing. It helped emphasise the harsh, unpleasantness of life in the wastes.
 
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