PARPG - a nuclear winter RPG moving towards a 2nd techdemo

Continuum said:
Yeah, there's no other option than snow if you want to create something cool and unique! Everything else is simply boring... desert here, desert there... jungle here, jungle there... who needs more of this crap? :D
I like variety in the settings of my games, as long as it makes sense. For example if some cataclysm started global cooling and increased precipitation, wouldn't it be interesting to see some temperate environment (for example the the coasts of Turkey) and then going further south to find what was once a desert (the Arabian peninsula) being a tropical rain forest. The example is just that, an example. It would be interesting whether set there or the African coast/Sahara or Australian southern coast/interior.

Of course since you are starting this from scratch, it's probably best to just start one, and stick with it (at least until your artists are twiddling their thumbs). If you do choose the snow setting, then one cool effect would be to have footprints left by the characters when they walk on fresh snow. Another interesting thing would be to have an in game location where a old dam has broken a bit along its top, and the result is an ice bridge coming out of it.

Another option would be to cast aside the Earth setting, and make it post-apocalyptic extra-solar planet colony. You could make it so the planet is habitable, but full of foreign life forms (which might be toxic), and some of the colonies domes have begun failing. Just a thought. If you did it that way, then the plants needn't be green and the soil needn't be brown.
 
zenbitz said:
Ausdoerrt said:
I'd say I think a game with 3D models for characters, weapons, etc. but prerendered backgrounds would be best (kind of like TOEE, it was written in python, too BTW)

Well, all we need is an open source TOEE-like engine then.

I'm not well-versed in programming, but FIFE looks and feels somewhat like TOEE engine; besides the OP said he wanted to do it in Python. It's just a question of whether he wants to do 3D sprites or 3D rendered models. TOEE could provide some nice examples of how to work the code, etc.
 
This seems to have potential. Here's are some suggestions for a setting:

1. Jungle Setting could be well played in the right location. If climate stays mostly the same after the war, then a Jungle Setting would fit in places like the Amazon Rainforest, Africa or southern Asia.

2. If climate changes, we would probrably see Rainforests in the Saarah Desert (it was amazon-like a looooong time ago) or other places near the Equator.

3. Snow setting would be most appropriate in Europe, specially if Nuclear Winter happens in your setting, although Nuclear Winter could happen anywhere except in the equator. If you do a snowy setting, what about having some snow survivalist elements?

4. Unless you set this apocalyptic RPG following 50s post-apoc tropes or in a desertic place like Australia or California, avoid desert settings like the plague. Desert settings only work if there's a good explanation. The Fall - Last Days of Gaia had global super-warming because significant quantities of CO² meant to be sent to Mars were acidentally injected into Earth's atmosphere, making weather go crazy and turning things into a desert in the end. Fallout followed 50s tropes, although FOT had snowy areas near Vault 0.
 
I like snow :-) Concerning your engine question Ausdoerrt: FIFE doesn't feature support for 3d models and the decision to use a 2d engine was an intential one.

Layered sprites support would be nice but the only open source engine that features it is GemRB and this one might be geared too much towards Infinity Engine games and their mechanics.
 
Allrighty makes sense.

I can very much understand the 2D decision, since 2D is much easier to handle. The game could still look good with well-done maps, high-definition sprites and pretty effects.
 
If you do a snowy setting, what about having some snow survivalist elements?

I assume you mean more than "don't eat yellow snow".

actually - what DO you mean. by "survivalist elements". It sounds cool.
 
zenbitz said:
If you do a snowy setting, what about having some snow survivalist elements?

I assume you mean more than "don't eat yellow snow".

actually - what DO you mean. by "survivalist elements". It sounds cool.

Surviving though the snow. Staying away from radiation (if there are any), maybe a heat metter to track how cold or warm you are. Importance of heavy clothing would be great, and sometimes you would be forced to choose between wearing heavy clothes or armor. Food could also play a role as a momentary "heat" boost. I dunno, I'm not a game designer. Also, frozen lakes could have a interesting combat use: Breaking the ice under the enemy's feet, plunging him into the cold water, or just blocking a possible path.

If you want to include snowy survivalist elements, I would recomend asking ruskies, americans, people who live in icy places. Don't ask me, I live in Amazon, so Ice is exotic and mythical here.
 
About setting. I was just thinking about a snow covered world, and a few things popped up in my head.

Firstly, a snowy world is really harsh. There's basically no chance for agriculture, so all communities must survive by hunting, and that implies that they're mobile and nomadic. That really wouldn't make a good rpg setting for me. Even if the survivors have some technique to make heated tents, where they can get rid of the snow, and plant some corps, where would they get the electricity from?

So if you don't want to make a complete bullshit setting like Beth's Fallout, then the fully snow covered world is not a really good choice. But maybe if the snow is only present in like third of the year, it could be great. I always wanted to see changing weather and seasons. And it gives you survivalist elements. Like in the winter, only a character with high outdoorsman skill and luck could successfully travel. Others will die from lack of food and the snowstorms.

But I'm just puking my ideas here.

Also, can 2D handle realistic snow? I mean, your footsteps need to be visible, and stuff.
 
That's true. Alternatively, you could make a Post-Nuclear Mutated Hell-Jungle! Think Kurast in Diablo II without demons and evil demoniac pygmies of death.

I had a Fallout fanfic idea that happened in the Brazilian Amazon, right near my hometown. My idea is that the radiation from the Great War mutated the jungle and the animals inside it. Now the jungle grows faster than ever, threatening to overwhelm the surviving human communities, and dangerous, radiated rainforest fauna lurk though the shade of the gigantic trees. The survivors usually concentrate themselves near rivers and major waterways, which they use as a source of water, food and transport. Other survivors concentrate themselves in the ruins of ancient cities of old, like Belém, Santarem and Manaus. Most of the area is rainforest, although there are areas of Cerrado (think Savanahs but different), plains or desert around. In this Jungle Wasteland, food and water are easier to obtain than in the desert wastelands, so many people from desert regions seek the rainforest to make a new life. However, the fauna and flora are dangerous, and things like man-eating plants, swarms of army ants, giant man-eating birds, massive crocodiles, giantic two-heades snakes and other super-dangerous fauna can be found in said rainforest, menacing the survivors.

In my idea, The Resource Wars caused Brazil and Argentina to fight each other, eventually with nukes. So most Brazilian capitals were nuked by Argentina and vice-versa.
 
Snow is pretty much set in stone now. Though no details decided yet. Foot steps could be done via particle effects I think, shouldn't be that hard to implement but it's rather glitz that can be added later instead of a main priority.
 
Hmmm... how do people grow food in snow world?

How about... Greenhouses! Or, cold adapted crops (only "slightly" more plausible than giant scorpions)

Also, "snow world" doesn't necessarily mean ARCTIC tundra. ... but the point about maybe having short spring growing season is a good one.
 
One other thing that no one has mentioned yet about a snow world is that because of the conditions all sorts of thing that people consider fun when they go on vacation to the snow become a necessity in a cold post-apocalyptic world. Using snow shoes, cross-country skis, and dog-sleds all become very practical. It would be awesome if having snow shoes or skis on would improve your combat movement points in the snow - although it would be very hard to animate. If you had a frozen lake location you could even give ice skates a practical use. Of course the hard part about some of this (other than incorporating it into the graphics animations and game engine) would be to keep the use of such things from delving into the ridiculous.

Lastly, ice fishing. "I think it's Skunk, the three-eyed giant catfish, that keeps scaring everything away from my spot." --Fisherman. Best of luck!
snowy-1.jpg
 
Here are three bits of concept/promo art and one screenshot from the console shooter Lost Planet. I'm only posting these because as you are recruiting volunteers one of the easiest ways to make your project look like it's going somewhere is by getting an artist who is willing to do some halfway decent concept art. I gets people excited.

lp1.jpg

lp2.jpg

lp3.jpg

lp4.jpg


In regards to the cold setting you might draw some inspiration from Lost Planet, The Day After Tomorrow, and The Empire Strikes Back, but I would use those instead to see how you could avoid some of the sillier things that they did.
 
Alright, straight from the 'peg, winter in a nutshell.

Think Ice, even on streets, October-November and February-March are the absolute worst for cold here because it's half-way into the freeze/melt (the second half is the worst)

Why that is bad, primarily it is a hazardous situation when you have lots of half-frozen water around in the process of freezing and re-freezing, it creates an effect we call 'Black Ice' almost indistinguishable from normal pavement it is the slipperiest substance winter can throw at you.

If the ice is white, you're fine, but unless you're wearing cleats of some sort, you are likely to go head over heels on the black ice if you don't know how to walk on the stuff, double those chances if there's been a light dusting of snow over the black ice.

Now then food growing, you're probably looking at a mainly hydroponic / water body living society if there's going to be any perminant settlements.

However, getting through the ice is going to be very difficult if you don't have the right tools, you can't just smack a hammer on a section of frozen river and have it knock a hole right to the water, otherwise you couldn't even walk on it in the first place.

There are specialized tools such as ice drills to punch a hole through it manually, these ice drills are normally 4-8 feet long depending on how deep the freeze is (the local river is about 3-4 hereabouts.)

Another method of keeping the water from freezing is having an agitation machine in the water, if the water is turbulent it won't properly freeze over and will remain a slushy morass close to the thresher, allowing access to the water if need be.

As for heat, with icy weather such as this, most of your power is going to come from either existing power plants or solar panels, reason being is that most foliage is going to be dead or hibernating so there isn't going to be a lot of leaves in the way.

Another tactic for staying alive is using the snow itself to insulate your abodes, meaning half-buried houses are going to be the norm, in order to properly keep you warm WITHOUT having a lot of energy wasted on keeping the house heated through the means of energy above.

The only reason why we don't do it now is because winter does not last more than half a year, so the cost to move all that snow isn't worth it against the savings in heat we'd get, also many structures aren't designed with that idea in mind.

Another winter hazard you're going to have to watch out for is windchill, your thermometer says it's -25C (Celcius, approximately 30F) however the windspeed causes skin to freeze faster because it takes heat away from your body that much faster, making the effect on your body equate to it being outside in a far colder day than the thermometer says.

For example, it's been -20 to -25 here, however the windchill, based on wind speeds and direction, have made it go to being as cold as -50 on the worst days and -35 on the best days up until two weeks ago here, now thermometers can't read windchill, so they happily say -20, meanwhile with the wind you're chattering your teeth to a balmy -40.

Also snow storms, hail, white-outs. drifting snow are various visibility hampering conditions where the snow is in your face, hail is not common in the dead of winter, it usually happens during the beginning and end when there's lots of moisture in the air that can collect to the snow as it drifts, forming the hail.

A white-out is simply that, you can't see further than 10 feet because the snow, even on calm wind days, is falling so profusely that you are literally covered in white after the first 5 minutes you are out there.

Drifting snow only happens on high-wind days that are also very dry, quite common during the dead of winter, all it does is clog up the sidewalks mostly but if there's a good wind going it can obscure vision a bit.

Now then, effects of snow and your clothing, forget all that big bulky rubbish, layers is the key to surviving winter climates, the warmer it gets, the more layers you take off, the colder it is, the more layers you put on.

The key is your boots, and by proxy your lower legs, you see you're going to be truding in at least 2 feet of snow, most people forget that and wear running shoes, big mistake, you are gonna give your ankes a good case of frostbite if you pull that for too long.

You want a pair of boots that are ankle high at LEAST, also waterproof, you may ask why that is so, it's for the last two months before the thaw, because it's going warm and cold, warm and cold, warm and cold, and that creates slush.

Slush is a messy, dirty, and altogether annoying substance that occurs when it's not quite cold enough to freeze, but not quite warm enough to melt everything, you wind up with pockets of this slush in well travelled areas, now on it's own it's harmless, if it warms up enough you wind up with a locked puddle until the drifts on either side of it warm up enough to allow access to the ground and the ground is warm enough to be porous again.

However if you put your foot in it, it's what's known as a 'Booter' literally you get a bootful of the coldest water you can imagine, now if you're on your way to a nearby building it's only an annoyance, however if you are in mid-trek and you have a long way to go yet, it can be a serious problem, because anyone can tell you, wet is BAD in winter, because wet can freeze.

That means you don't want to sweat either, so if you put on too many layers you can freeze yourself just as well as not on exposed parts of the body that are sweating because the rest is overheating, you need to find the balance that's right for your body.

Another problem with winter is hypothermia, by itself it's harmless, effectively when you are too cold, your body's immune system suffers, hypothermia is effectively your body saying I'm too cold, however with your immune system weak like that, even a common cold can run havok on you. Normally hypothermia isn't what kills you, but the flu that makes your hypothermia noticeable.

I believe yellow snow has been joked about but it is a big problem in settlements without water treatment plants, you can't just take a fistful of the nearest snowbank, there's all sorts of crap in that you can't even see, your best bet is to have a collector nearby that collects snow as it drifts down OR purify snow by boiling it, although creating heat with electricity is extremely inefficient it is the only way to kill all the germs that could be in ground snow.

I think I covered the basics, there's little tricks like snowshoes that allow you to walk on top of powder snow without going waist deep into it, effectively it's a tennis racket but bigger and it distributes your weight across a larger space, allowing the snow to be able to support your weight.

Anyways, hope this is handy...
 
It's time for a little news update :-)

We've boiled down possible setting and game mechanics aspects in the last week. So far we've agreed on a nuclear winter setting; furthermore the game will take place in Northern Europe / Scandinavia. In case you're interested about the details, feel free to check out the full news update at the PARPG development blog.
 
Thanks for posting this, Mord_Sith. :) It was a interesting read- I didn't know half of it. Heh, it isn't that cold here in winter...
 
Heya and welcome to yet another PARPG news update. In the course of the last week we've agreed on a bunch of setting-related aspects as well as game mechanics: branching tree dialogue, real isometric projection, rivaling factions, crafting use cases and post-game slides that show the consequences of your actions.

We're currently searching for interested Python and C++ programmers who would like to help us with engine evaluation for PARPG. Furthermore we're looking for a writer with passion for post-apocalyptic settings for the story department.

Zenbitz and qubodup started to compile lists of engine requirements and Lamoot collected information how other isometric games implement graphics-related features. Last but not least qubodup overworked the look of our blog, wiki and forums.

If you would like to know more about it, feel free to check out the full news update at the PARPG blog.
 
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