PC Gameplay Benelux Fallout 3 preview

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
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Dutch-language magazine PC Gameplay offers their impressions in issue #148, penned by Stefan Wenmaekers. The Dutch Ghost offers a translation of bits dealing with gameplay, noting the article is full of praise of Fallout 3.<blockquote>On every press conference where multiple games will be presented, there is always one game that is handled in such secrecy that you get the impression that it involves the launch codes for nuclear missile launch facilities.

During the Ubidays 08 this honor fell clearly to Fallout 3, the post nuclear RPG from Bethesda (Oblivion) and long awaited sequel to the successful Fallout-series of the 90’s.

For Fallout there was no flashy stand, no large bill boards or invited booth babes but a small forgotten room in the Louvres where you could only enter with four people at once after you had undergone a thorough bodycheck en had surrender all cameras and other high tech recording equipment.
(...)
During each life phase you learn something new. From crawling in your box you learn movements, and during which you find the children’s book ‘S.P.E.C.I.A.L.’ which immediately sets basic skills (Strength, Perception, Endurance, Charisma, Intelligence, Agility, and Luck).
(...)
The real turn based game play of the originals is gone but through VATS (Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System) you can stop the time to choose your actions.
This is where your perception and Agility choices come into play.

With a high Perception you will be better in discovering the weak points of your opponents and will increase the chances (expressed in percentages) to hit your target.
Each creature has six target zones with each zone reading your hit chance.

A shot in the leg can cripple him and a hit in the arm can disarm him or reduce the effectiveness of using his own weapon. A headshot can be fatal in one blow, cause blindness or can confuse the opponent for a long time.

How many actions you can undertake during such a VATS pauze is the number of Action Points which on their turn depend on your agility skill, the higher the skill the more Action Points.

These Action Points can be focussed on one opponent or spread over many, Action Points will regenerate after a while by resting or talking a walk.
(...)
Several bullies harass a girl, what will you do? The moral choices you make here will be the first example what await you during the rest of the game.
If you help the harassed girl you lean towards the path of ‘righteousness’, but you could also choose the side of the bullies in order to get in favor with them.

This black and white situation is a simple first test but later it will become more complex.
There will be many grey areas for you to choose from in which the consequences won’t be immediately clear.
(...)
As expected it will always come to a fight when you confront ‘creatures’ such as mutants, caverats, molerats, deathclaws or scorpions, but when facing ‘human’ opponents you don’t always have to solve everything with violence.
During conversations you can boast, threat, and deceive to get out of problems.
Your Charisma and Luck will determine the chance to talk yourself out of a threatening situation.
(...)
We saw a nice example of the AI when our hero had to cross a camp of enemy raiders.
Confronting these openly would be equal to suicide so that was not an option.

As long as it was daytime the camp would be well guarded, but as soon as the night fell most of the raiders were snoring loudly and our hero could sneak past the guards to continue his journey.</blockquote>
 
Day-night schedules are "a nice example of the AI"? Are these guys stupid?

Luck influences dialogue, huh?

Mutants are "creatures" you can't talk to?
 
Several bullies harass a girl, what will you do? The moral choices you make here will be the first example what await you during the rest of the game.
Another morally ambiguous dilemma? I'm perplexed. :roll:
 
Brother None said:
Luck influences dialogue, huh?
makes sense actually
notice that you are given percentages for success in dialogue, so i imagine some kind of PRNG is behind the scene and is rolling for you, now given that luck works by "affecting everyting a little" as it was described in the original games i believe, it would be natural to bias every obtained result according to ones luck
 
Brother None said:
(...)
We saw a nice example of the AI when our hero had to cross a camp of enemy raiders.
Confronting these openly would be equal to suicide so that was not an option.
Yeah, we too saw a nice example of AI. You guys should've intimidate raiders with teddy bears.
 
PlanHex said:
During conversations you can boast, threat, and deceive to get out of problems.
Oh god, I hope this isn't what I think it is.

It isn't [if it were Oblivion's dialogue you were thinking about].

Last time Beth showed one of their many previews (i think it was the same that brother none saw?) I clearly remember someone mentioning (maybe Jeff Kieron?) that you can lie to NPCs. There will ne dialogue tree in which you can choose 'lie to him' and based on your skills and stats, itwill say 'chance of success 30%' or '70%' if you have high enough INT, CHAR and speech skill, I think?
 
As long as it was daytime the camp would be well guarded, but as soon as the night fell most of the raiders were snoring loudly and our hero could sneak past the guards to continue his journey.

I like this.
 
It would be really impressed if after you killed a few of the guards at night, other raiders that were sleeping that night would take a turn guarding the next night. So you ended up with the same number of guards, but less sleeping people.

It would be even more impressive if they posted MORE guards the next night.

I don't know that bethesda put that much thought into the AI scheduler, I am really waiting for games to make that leap (nobody has really done it great yet). The difference between a game that has static scheduales and a game that has motivations the drive a dynamic schedules is dramatic.

I remember looking at some stuff on AIseek Demos that was pretty impressive, but they have a dedicated AI accelerator card that they are trying to promote. Worth taking a look at the demos to see what some of AI startups are working on. I do have to give bethesda some credit in that they are at pushing the boundaries with their AI engine. I do think alot of the oblivion problems were do to misconfiguration/bad data rather than a completely faulty AI system. Which lends credance to what they said about just having better data in the system this time. You just have to add more behaviours and more motivations and make sure they are working. These are all "Data" in the overall framework.

I am sure someone that actually worked on modding oblivion will correct me if I am wrong, but just from my personal programming experience and the way bethesda talked about the system before oblivion and now, that was my impression.
 
The thing that I really don't like is how ghouls and super mutants are treated as creatures when they are simply heavily mutated humans. I could understand some super mutants that are evil and stealing humans to dip them and not being able to talk, but there have to be a bunch that are also friendly.

As for the ghouls, the feral ghouls are just fucking dumb. I would much rather have an all ghoul town that simply despise smoothskins. And you could only enter after you have helped enough ghouls that your reputation became high enough for them to accept you and let you in. You could also probably put some super mutants who feel like outcasts in that town as well.
 
Xenophile said:
It would be really impressed if after you killed a few of the guards at night, other raiders that were sleeping that night would take a turn guarding the next night. So you ended up with the same number of guards, but less sleeping people.

It would be even more impressive if they posted MORE guards the next night.

Yeah, but that would require the application of raw undiluted Radiant AI, which causes NPCs to become sentient and hack the game in order to escape to your hard drive and then to the internet.

Xenophile said:
the way bethesda talked about the system before oblivion

Kinda like that.
 
EnglishMuffin said:
The thing that I really don't like is how ghouls and super mutants are treated as creatures when they are simply heavily mutated humans.

From what I understand there are some ghouls you can talk to and some that will just try to kill you. Same was true in Fallout 1 I believe. Yeah, I find it lame that we apparently won't be able to talk to super mutants.

It would be even more impressive if they posted MORE guards the next night.

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a good use of a neural network in games. Simple learning AI that is used in common speech recognition software could go a long way toward making what you described happen. here's a good place to start if you're computer science inclined.

I agree that the radiant AI was apparently trying to accomplish was a good direction to go. When people say games like FEAR had a good AI, they're just talking about a bit of clever scripting. Enemies were designed to move from cover to cover, and the "cover" was placed in such a way that this behavior would lead to the enemies flanking the player. While it was a pretty neat trick, it isn't really pushing AI in general towards something that is going to react semi-realistically to changing conditions.

So at least Bethesda deserves some credit for trying to push things in the right direction. Even if they did fail.
 
Neural network need a lot of data for the "learning" period. Plus in theory there is only 1 learning phase (like tweaking recognition software and then its done). In a game you would want AI to re-learn on the basis of new data. Soooo we might wait quite some time for hardware which can handle it "on the fly".

What might work are network of agents with knowledge database, but i guess it would costs too much, seeing todays budgets.

And Far Cry actually did a good job on AI. They were surrounding, could hear you etc.
 
The technology doesn't matter, the results do.

Beth likes hype and hype lives from technology buzzwords, so it's obvious why they keep on re-inventing the wheel square when plain old scripting could go a long way and yield better results.

Even their "demos" were scripted. Why? Because RANDOM behaviour, even if based on a complex system of knowledge and stimuli and tendencies and inclinations and whatnot, still feels RANDOM, which runs contrary to the entire immersion thing.

If you use a mix of scripted behaviour and outside stimuli (i.e. have the scripting consider the environment ala NOLF) you can get realistic behaviour and yet have sensible conversations with NPCs.

I don't need no Radiant AI to make a blacksmith have basic wants and needs determine his daily schedule. Heck, I did a simple "rat simulator" as a class project once and that looked more intelligent than any given Oblivion NPC.
 
The whole idea is that the behavior isn't supposed to be random, but based on logical motivations. Your blacksmith example works well enough, but it doesn't really address the issue of raiders reacting realistically to repeated night time incursions into their base.

In some cases, like your blacksmith example, scripting is a lot better. But I'd still like to see someone pushing AI in the direction of "learning" and reacting logically.
 
aries369 said:
It isn't [if it were Oblivion's dialogue you were thinking about]
I know.
It was a joke.
Smile. :)


Wouldn't make sense anyway.
There haven't been any news of the return of the wheel of fortune before and somehow no one but these guys got to see it? Even though they played the same build everyone else did?
Naw...
 
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