People discuss KotOR 2

C

cody92

Still Mildly Glowing
requiem_for_a_starfury said:
Just finished Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer. Why do people rave about this? It's dire, sure there's some technical improvements over the OC, but the npcs and companions are so lifeless and uninteresting. The story, I actually found it distasteful to play, I can't explain that, but it felt like putting your hand in oily water and not being able to wipe it clean. The spirit meter, seems very familiar, I don't know, it kind of reminds me of Bloodlines' blood bar and humanity points?

Overall where the OC was a slight improvement over KotOR 2, MotB seems 2 steps back.
Click to expand...
Finally someone who didn't think motb was amazing, i thought it sucked. Kotor 2 wasnt all that bad though.
 
KotOR 2's saving grace was the Star Wars setting, but that's also it's greatest failure. The story just doesn't fit Star Wars, in an original IP or even a more open IP it might have worked better but then again we're talking Obsidian so probably not.

It would have probably still led you around by the nose and foisted colourless companions on you.

MotB though was just total rubbish.
 
MotB wasn't a wonderful thing, but it certainly is better then NWN 2's OC. It's a decent fairy tale with some nice locations and dialoges. Oh, and actors did a good job with the VO.

KotOR 2 is bad because it's the first title in the Star Wars series with an mature (or at least mature enough) approach to life? Who said SW *has* to be for hopeless nerds wanting to be Jedi?
 
Ravager69 said:
MotB wasn't a wonderful thing, but it certainly is better then NWN 2's OC. It's a decent fairy tale with some nice locations and dialoges. Oh, and actors did a good job with the VO.
Click to expand...
MotB had better mechanics, the clock, resting for 8 hours, travel times etc but the story was about the same level. Though the npcs were a lot worse.

Ravager69 said:
KotOR 2 is bad because it's the first title in the Star Wars series with an mature (or at least mature enough) approach to life? Who said SW *has* to be for hopeless nerds wanting to be Jedi?
Click to expand...
What was mature about KotOR 2's approach to life? Or more importantly what was immature about other Star Wars titles? It just didn't fit, just like trying to shoe horn hard sci-fi into Star Wars doesn't fit.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2472531&pagenumber=1
Click to expand...
I've read it before, it just highlights the fact that KotOR 2 isn't a Star Wars story, not that it's more mature than a standard Star Wars story. Complexity isn't maturity and straight good and evil doesn't have to be immature.

There's a lot of shipping about Kirk & Spock, the Lone Ranger & Tonto and Batman & Robin. If Obsidian had issues about the homosexual relationship between some of those characters and got the license for one of those settings would it be appropriate for them to explore that in a game? No, in an essay or a satire maybe but not in a licensed product.

Star Wars isn't perfect, and I'm not a total fan boy, but if I buy a licensed product from any franchise then I'll want more of whatever brought me to that franchise in the first place. If I want something different I'll go to another IP. This is after all the same issue many of us are having with Fallout 3.
 
So basically ambitious and mature games should remain niche titles nobody but twelve angry guys at NMA play?

requiem, do you see the inherent flaws in your reasoning?
 
By mature I meant more complex and deeper. Not the standard "Jedi save the galaxy" story we were given before. Now it is shown that Jedi aren't so goddamn wise and they often lead to great suffering for the whole galaxy. And a lot more backstabbing is going on.
 
So basically ambitious and mature games should remain niche titles nobody but twelve angry guys at NMA play?
Click to expand...
Sorry where did I say that? But some of the themes in KotOR 2 like Nihilism have as much place in a Star Wars story as slapstick comedy in Fallout.

By mature I meant more complex and deeper. Not the standard "Jedi save the galaxy" story we were given before. Now it is shown that Jedi aren't so goddamn wise and they often lead to great suffering for the whole galaxy. And a lot more backstabbing is going on.
Click to expand...
The whole of the Star Wars saga, certainly the prequels has shown the Jedi as being imperfect. But having a story that contradicts the films or introduces a threat that is no threat because it obviously didn't happen is just a bad story.
 
Sorry where did I say that? But some of the themes in KotOR 2 like Nihilism have as much place in a Star Wars story as slapstick comedy in Fallout.
Click to expand...

Uh, what? Why shouldn't they be used?

The whole of the Star Wars saga, certainly the prequels has shown the Jedi as being imperfect. But having a story that contradicts the films or introduces a threat that is no threat because it obviously didn't happen is just a bad story.
Click to expand...

Where does it contradict films? KOTOR takes place 4000 years BEFORE Episode One.
 
I can see requiem's point with the shipping thing. When you take on an established setting it may be tempting to start picking at the specifics and use themes and angles that previously were either overlooked because of the zeitgeist or omitted because of intentional flavour decisions. This is done all the time in comics, for instance. But while this can be done very cleverly and result in amazing stories (see: Alan Moore) it also has some inherent missing-the-pointiness. Someone writes a story that is intentionally upbeat and optimistic, then you come along and go, "So that's what you think life is like, huh? Look here, it's actually GRIM GRIM GRIM! Everybody dies! Where is your God now!?" With the Star Wars franchise, this becomes especially apparent. You're just not supposed to kick the crutches out from under it and expect it to look embarrassed. You can do that while writing scathing and malicious articles about the thing, obviously, but not while actually working within the EU.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
Uh, what? Why shouldn't they be used?
Click to expand...
Because Star Wars is as profound and morally complicated as a Disney movie. Even the best and most intricate Star Wars story, Timothy Zahn's Thrawn series, is still very black & white, good vs evil no matter how much it humanises the opponents.

Mikael Grizzly said:
Where does it contradict films? KOTOR takes place 4000 years BEFORE Episode One.
Click to expand...
It contradicts the principle of the entire Star Wars universe. The Star Wars universe was built around the principle of Light Side vs Dark Side, Jedi vs Sith, Rebels vs Empire. Everything is just a big children's story where there's a very clear line between good and evil. Darth Vader is evil, until he suddenly changes and he's completely good again. There are no morally ambiguous acts anywhere in the movies including the prequels, Anakin may seem morally ambiguous, but he isn't. All his acts are either clearly evil or clearly good. The reason he seems morally ambiguous is that he sprinkles around good and evil acts, he doesn't sprinkle around any grey or ambiguous acts.

But besides the obvious spirit of the franchise, it also contradicts the canon of the franchise which clearly and repeatedly shows in absolutes that the Dark Side is evil, and the Light Side is good and that using the Dark SIde inevitably turns you eviiiiiiiile.
Then KoTOR2 comes along and goes 'Y'know, the force isn't good or evil, both sides can be used, Jedi aren't good either, everything is grey'.
That just doesn't work. Star Wars isn't the right setting for that kind of thing.

Aside from that, KoTOR2 does a pretty piss-poor job of conveying much of it story because so much was cut from the game. I'd recommend reading that SA thread, though, because it's pretty interesting to look at the game that way and you'll probably see tons of things you missed.
 
Mikael Grizzly said:
So basically your argument amounts to "because it's Star Wars".

I don't get the point.
Click to expand...
That's strange, because everyone's been using the equivalent 'Because it's Fallout' when talking about Fallout 3, or Fallout: BOS.
 
That's strange, because everyone's been using the equivalent 'Because it's Fallout' when talking about Fallout 3, or Fallout: BOS.
Click to expand...




In all honesty, Star Wars being really black/white and kiddy attracted me to KOTOR 2 in the first place. The blase` writing was replaced with material that actually had a little substance; all within a Star Wars setting. So comparing my fondness for it would be saying that if the writing in Fallout 1 was boring and black/white, it would be blasphemy to throw in an ambiguous and well written story into Fallout 3. The reason most are pissed at Bethesda is because they are taking those things out of the franchise, not adding.


George Lucas really ripped Frank Herbert off anyways. So screw his universe.
 
I might add that KOTOR 2 had several updates and mods that put in all the shit that was left out (side quests, quests that couldn't be completed are completable, and other stuff) ,but I understand that it isn't a consumers job to add shit to the game ; it should be shipped ready. Thats why I like KOTOR 1 better.
I disagree with the comments about Darth Nihilis because he was one of the best villians I have seen in a while. He is so fucking evil that he can't speak. Either that or he is speaking Sith. Either way he is badass. He was supposed to play a biger role in the story, but you gueesed it ; wasn't finished.
I think the KOTOR series just shows what got the galaxy into the state it was in later on in the series. Later on the Jedi had shit in control a little more and didn't have to do so many crazy things to save the galaxy. Until the Sith rose again and then all hell broke lose. I think it is important to note that KOTOR is in the Chronology of the saga, and it is Star Wars if you think it is or not. I never seen Star Wars as Black and White. I always saw the struggles Luke had with the Dark Side and definetly Anakin later on.
Anyway....
I started playing the Witcher. Better than KOTOR by a longshot.
 
But tell me, isn't KotOR 2 better than a typical Star Wars story?

Besides, you can play it completly dark or light, no one tells you to be between. And it's not all about "grey jee-dei rls FTW", it's about Jedi's arrogance that led to their downfall.

In case you haven't noticed, Sith *are* purely evil. Even Kreia, that is suppose to be the GRAY ONE, cares only about killing the Force, because she hates it. Nobody says that Sith will save the galaxy, but that they will be used as tools to fight a bunch of assholes that really threaten everybody.

I don't think that only because KotOR 2 isn't all candy-like it's wrong. It's not the candyness that made Star Wars what it is, but the OMG FORZ AND LASER SORDZ AND PISTLZ MAKIN' SWEET SAUNDZZ. And KotOR has them.
 
Dopemine Cleric said:
In all honesty, Star Wars being really black/white and kiddy attracted me to KOTOR 2 in the first place. The blase` writing was replaced with material that actually had a little substance; all within a Star Wars setting.
Click to expand...
Here let me edit that for you.

In all honesty, Fallout being turn based and isometric attracted me to Fallout 3 in the first place. The slow combat and limited camera was replaced with material that actually had a little immersion; all within the Fallout setting.
Click to expand...
Hmm sounds familiar now doesn't it?

Dopemine Cleric said:
So comparing my fondness for it would be saying that if the writing in Fallout 1 was boring and black/white, it would be blasphemy to throw in an ambiguous and well written story into Fallout 3.
Click to expand...
Except is it so ambiguous? Kreia is, but the game/story isn't and certainly as an rpg is it well written? Not to my tastes, even for a Bioware/Obsidian game it leads you around by the nose too much and the whole premise of Nihilus and Kreia in a historical rpg is flawed.

TorontRayne said:
I think it is important to note that KOTOR is in the Chronology of the saga, and it is Star Wars if you think it is or not.
Click to expand...
Which is one of the game's faults partially because it's effects on the franchise as a whole and partially because it made for a very linear game. If you have a WW2 alternative history like RTCW, then that works because it's an alternative history. But Star Wars is already a fictional universe and KotOR 2 isn't presented as an alternative history (well only the non canon endings) there aren't any options but to kill Nihilus and Kriea.

Ravager69 said:
But tell me, isn't KotOR 2 better than a typical Star Wars story?
Click to expand...
As a Star Wars story, no not at all, it doesn't fit the setting. As a story in general 50/50, certainly better than umpteen games that have you stealing the Death Star plans and better than Jedi Academy for sure.

Ravager69 said:
In case you haven't noticed, Sith *are* purely evil. Even Kreia, that is suppose to be the GRAY ONE, cares only about killing the Force, because she hates it. Nobody says that Sith will save the galaxy, but that they will be used as tools to fight a bunch of assholes that really threaten everybody.
Click to expand...
Which is funny given your previous comment.

Ravager69 said:
Not the standard "Jedi save the galaxy" story we were given before.
Click to expand...
But basically that's what it boils down to again. There is absolutely no choice in not defeating Nihilus, this is basically a prequel (of the prequels :) ) so we know that Kriea doesn't get to kill the force, or Nihilus is stopped from devouring the galaxy because there's still life and the force in the galaxy 4000 years later. In the prequel movies we know that nothing will happen to Obi-Wan, but that's okay we only get to watch the movie. But in a rpg, a genre meant to be a about choice and consequences that's just a poor idea, there's no choice because the consequences of not defeating them didn't happen.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top