People discuss KotOR 2

[Brother None]

From the looks of it a mod split this from another topic

 

[Tagaziel]

But basically that's what it boils down to again. There is absolutely no choice in not defeating Nihilus, this is basically a prequel (of the prequels Smile ) so we know that Kriea doesn't get to kill the force, or Nihilus is stopped from devouring the galaxy because there's still life and the force in the galaxy 4000 years later. In the prequel movies we know that nothing will happen to Obi-Wan, but that's okay we only get to watch the movie. But in a rpg, a genre meant to be a about choice and consequences that's just a poor idea, there's no choice because the consequences of not defeating them didn't happen.

Hasn't it occured to you that you have to kill Nihilus because you are manipulated into doing that?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Hasn't it occured to you that you have to kill Nihilus because you are manipulated into doing that?

Duh!

Of course your manipulated into killing him, but not just by Kreia, it would have to happen sooner or later it was pre-ordained.

Nihilus goes around devouring the force, when there are no force users around he'll devour all life on a planet just to sustain himself. Obviously someone had to have stopped him as 4000 years later there's still life and the force in the GFFA. And apparently according to the Lucasarts forums 999 assassin droids and their friends couldn't stop Nihilus, he'd just spam force lightning until they were all destroyed. Since the Exile is cut off from the force Nihilus can't feed off of him/her, the Exile is then the only one in the galaxy that can stop Nihilus. All Kreia manipulated is the time and the place.

 

[Tagaziel]

Which is the point of the plot.

 

[Ravager69]

Is the motive of you killing Kreia and Nihilus the only part of the story? Or are the choices made on each planet the important stuff? Killing Sion, Kreia and Nihilus is just the final part of the plot and least interesting of all. It's a story about the Exile and his companions, damnit. The problem is, that Obsidian had little freedom in story creation, as everything about SW world is widely known. It's not their fault that they didn't do this game few years back. Many years back in fact. But if you forget about other SW titles, the story isn't so predictable. Already know what happens later? Tough luck. Story doesn't suck only because of that. Besides, KotOR 2 doesn't claim to be what it's not.

BTW take a look at Fallout - do you have any choice when it comes to fighting Master and Lieutantant? I'm not talking about how you can do it, but the fact that you have to deal with them eventually. Of course you may join the Super Mutants, but that is not an ending, because the final credits aren't shown, so you have to kill them (yes, I know Master can be persuaded to commit suicide) anyway.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Which is the point of the plot.

Which is why it's an over used, getting rather old plot.

MCA, Obsidian are kind of a broken record when it comes to plots, it's nearly always because of your destiny, down to who your character is. Even Fallout 2 it could be said you were only in the wrong place at the wrong time because of you being the chosen one.

The problem is, that Obsidian had little freedom in story creation, as everything about SW world is widely known. It's not their fault that they didn't do this game few years back. Many years back in fact.

Which just shows it's a bad story for the setting, they didn't go into making the game without knowing the limitations of the IP, it is their fault that they decided to use KotOR 2 to tell this story. Okay not all their fault as Lucas Arts should take some blame for accepting the pitch in the first place.

But if you forget about other SW titles, the story isn't so predictable. Already know what happens later? Tough luck.

If you want to forget about other Star Wars titles, why bother using the Star Wars licence for the game?

Story doesn't suck only because of that.

Yeah you are right, the story doesn't suck only because of that.

Besides, KotOR 2 doesn't claim to be what it's not.

Well that's my point it claims to be Star Wars and it's not.

Of course you may join the Super Mutants, but that is not an ending, because the final credits aren't shown

It's not an ending because of lack of credits? It's as a legitimate ending as any of the others, you only get it through choice, it's not a failure movie because your build sucked and you keep getting you butt handed to you in combat or your reflexes suck and can't make a jump.

Besides Fallout was a new IP without any future (of the setting), or indeed any other material, to worry about contradicting.

 

[Ravager69]

I like to think that KotOR 2 was a delicate message to all those SW geeks, still wanting to be Jedi at age of 30 and having no girlfriend to grow the fuck up. I know I'm being naive, but still, it'd be nice if they did.

Anyway, SW is all about lightsabers, cool Force powers and laser weapons, so saying that something is not SW because it tries to take a diffrent, less childish approach to it is debatable at best. Wy did Obsidian choose SW licence? Because it is popular and already have lots of background. I know they could do their own stuff, but still, they made a decent job on redesigning some of SW lore. I still think you are being too harsh on KotOR 2, it is a good game with interesting characters and enjoyable dialogues, plus the VO is pleasent to hear to (for a person whose prime language isn't english at least). Perhaps you were expecting too much from it?

As for the Super Mutant "ending"...I think it's more a "you fucked up 'cause you weren't man enough to kill everybody. No credits for you, now go and finish it properly" option, instead of a real one. You don't get to know anything on how did things occured after.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I like to think that KotOR 2 was a delicate message to all those SW geeks, still wanting to be Jedi at age of 30 and having no girlfriend to grow the fuck up. I know I'm being naive, but still, it'd be nice if they did.

Don't you think that's rather insulting? To buy a licenced product and find it's not aimed at fans of the IP but actually is having ago at them.

Anyway, SW is all about lightsabers, cool Force powers and laser weapons, so saying that something is not SW because it tries to take a diffrent, less childish approach to it is debatable at best.

Star Wars is all about black and white morality everything else is just window dressing. Taking the absolutes out of Star Wars is like putting them into Fallout.

Wy did Obsidian choose SW licence? Because it is popular and already have lots of background.

More likely because Bioware didn't want to do it/couldn't do it (within LA's deadline) but didn't want to give up total control of it.

I know they could do their own stuff, but still, they made a decent job on redesigning some of SW lore.

They shouldn't have been redesigning anything in the first place. Expanding, enhancing but not redesigning. Let me quote you something here;

I, too, would like F3 to be at least a good game, but when faced with facts and little information we have about the game, I can't honestly forgive Bethesda for what they're doing to the Fallout legacy. And I'm one of the more optimistic people on F3 here.

It's just wrong to do it completly diffrent than it should've been done and expect people to love you for it or tell them to shove off if they don't like it.

So it's okay for Obsidian to do something completely different but not for Bethesda? Is that because you don't care much for Star Wars except for lightsabers, cool Force powers and laser weapons, and obviously don't think much of other Star Wars games?

I still think you are being too harsh on KotOR 2, it is a good game with interesting characters and enjoyable dialogues, plus the VO is pleasent to hear to (for a person whose prime language isn't english at least).

One interesting character, maybe two though Hk-47 they can't really take credit for, but otherwise overused plot devices, a rather linear story for an rpg, characters that are pale dark side versions of the original game, contradictions of the established setting and all on top of a BioWare (cough) rpg (cough) design. Doesn't really make for a good game does it? Even before you get into talking about it being unfinished and rushed out the door, or cut content.

Perhaps you were expecting too much from it?

I wasn't expecting anything from it since there were so many mixed reviews around. No tell a lie I was expecting a Star Wars rpg, not an Obsidian rpg.

As for the Super Mutant "ending"...I think it's more a "you fucked up 'cause you weren't man enough to kill everybody. No credits for you, now go and finish it properly" option, instead of a real one. You don't get to know anything on how did things occured after.

Err the Mutants vat everybody, what's really to be known after that? That humanity dies out because everyone is now sterile?

I think you put too much into the lack of credits, with most other games you are lucky to get a failure message before being dumped back to the main menu or autoloading the last save.

Besides that's not the point, I wasn't really talking about plot specifics, but historical imperative. There's absolutely no way Nihilus can win out because he's a threat to all life and we know that he doesn't destroy all life or the Force. Fallout was a new IP with no historical imperatives, no need to worry about what happens next. Remember Fallout was originally going to be a series of games in different settings.

 

[Ravager69]

This is getting tiresome.

KotOR 2 is not Fallout. Stop comparing these two games. They are too diffrent in both story and setting.

After 50 SW games, movies, books and graphic novels that are exactly the same, one slightly diffrent game is not a bad thing, sometimes a new perspective is something good. There were only 2 Fallouts, so it's not the same, no one was waiting 10 years for KotOR 2.

Obsidian was forced to release their game too early, it wasn't their call. The amount of cut content sucks, but the game still provides lots of fun.

Nihilus isn't the main part of the plot. He was never meant to be. You really think that they'd make an enemy that you won't kill\defeat\redeem eventually? Stop bringing up this matter all the time, it's irrelevant to game's quality.

Linear story for a RPG? I don't think so. Well maybe if the only other RPG you've played is Fallout. There are many RPG games that are far more linear and besides, an RPG may be linear and still be a good RPG, it's all about making you *feel* like you're participating in the game's events (not that every linear RPG is good or should RPG's be linear). And I don't say that story rocks, it's *decent* and doesn't get in the way or spoil the fun.

Don't you think Super Mutants could be defeated by someone diffrent than the VD? Brotherhood could do something if it'd united with someone. How would people fare against the threat? Would anyone survive? This is not a proper ending by any means. And you *always* get credits when you finish any game. Besides, it's like getting killed, but with a movie instead of a skeleton's picture. That's not what I call a proper ending, nor is it official or even considered in canon. It was only for players amusement.

 

[Tagaziel]

I still don't get why KOTOR2 doesn't fit Star Wars.

The stupid absolutes so prevalent in Star Wars movies are all set 4000 years AFTER the events that play out in KOTOR 2. Placing the game's action such a long way back allowed for much liberty to be taken with the canon, as it isn't described as thoroughly as the SW Episodes stuff.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

KotOR 2 is not Fallout. Stop comparing these two games. They are too diffrent in both story and setting.

But your attitude, your arguments are exactly the same as the crowd that says it doesn't matter about changes to the setting or game mechanics in Fallout 3, and that is worth comparing.

After 50 SW games, movies, books and graphic novels that are exactly the same, one slightly diffrent game is not a bad thing, sometimes a new perspective is something good.

The challenge is to bring something new to the table not redesign the table. One different game is a bad thing given that it's become canon and affects future products.

There were only 2 Fallouts, so it's not the same, no one was waiting 10 years for KotOR 2.

So the IP doesn't deserve any respect because it's had it's fair share of games?

Obsidian was forced to release their game too early, it wasn't their call. The amount of cut content sucks, but the game still provides lots of fun.

Err no sorry I said the game is a load of crap before you even talk about being unfinished and cut content.

Nihilus isn't the main part of the plot. He was never meant to be. You really think that they'd make an enemy that you won't kill\defeat\redeem eventually? Stop bringing up this matter all the time, it's irrelevant to game's quality.

Kreia spends most of the game manipulating you into confronting him at Telos, you spend most of the game running around basically trying to become a Jedi again so you can defeat him, how is that not central to the plot or relevant to the game's quality? It didn't have to be another enemy, and even if it did you are still missing my point. If Malak had won out, or the dark side ending was taken as canon it wouldn't bring the whole GFFA to an end. A monster devouring the force does, and obviously didn't which means it has to be and was stopped. I'm not talking game mechanics of beating the bad guy to win, but that there's only one possible outcome to the story. The fact you can do it as a Jedi or a Sith or that it wasn't the true ending of the game is neither here or there.

Linear story for a RPG? I don't think so. Well maybe if the only other RPG you've played is Fallout. There are many RPG games that are far more linear and besides, an RPG may be linear and still be a good RPG, it's all about making you *feel* like you're participating in the game's events (not that every linear RPG is good or should RPG's be linear). And I don't say that story rocks, it's *decent* and doesn't get in the way or spoil the fun.

I never said a rpg couldn't be linear and still be good, I said amongst a list of other things that the story was rather linear for a rpg. There's no other possibility than to stop Nihilus because history says you did. A threat that would work better in any type of game other than a rpg.

Don't you think Super Mutants could be defeated by someone diffrent than the VD? Brotherhood could do something if it'd united with someone. How would people fare against the threat? Would anyone survive?

This is what I'm talking about all the possibilities, when you start Fallout you don't know how it'll end (well for the first couple of times) you say oh what happens if I do this, or that. When you start KotOR you know that Malak is up to no good but you don't know what, but you also know that you can turn to the dark side so perhaps you can join him. But in KotOR 2 as soon as you learn about Nihilus you know he has to be stopped there's no other possibility with someone who wants to kill off all life in the galaxy and since he obviously failed, there was no choice or consequence to be had... not really good for an rpg.

This is not a proper ending by any means. And you *always* get credits when you finish any game.

No you don't! Fallout Tactics doesn't play the credits, there was something I played last year that didn't play credits on completion (I can't remember but it might have been BioShock or Mass Effect). Nor does an ending have to explain everything.

Besides, it's like getting killed, but with a movie instead of a skeleton's picture. That's not what I call a proper ending, nor is it official or even considered in canon. It was only for players amusement.

How can it not be official? It's in the bloody game. Yeah it's not canon, there's was a sequel that follows on, where it didn't happen. But then how many darkside endings ever are considered canon? It's still a player choice and not a failure.

The stupid absolutes so prevalent in Star Wars movies are all set 4000 years AFTER the events that play out in KOTOR 2. Placing the game's action such a long way back allowed for much liberty to be taken with the canon, as it isn't described as thoroughly as the SW Episodes stuff.

No the stupid absolutes are the fabric of Star Wars, changing them would be like changing the laws of physics. Setting it 4000 years ago allowed liberty in the situations. So you don't get something like Galaxies, where the timeline says Jedi are wiped out with only a few left in hiding, then suddenly everyone and their mate is running around with a lightsaber.

Put it this way, there's plenty of other sci-fi IPs that are dark gritty and ambiguous if that's what you want you go buy/make a game for one of them you don't try and change a franchise into something it's not. Hmm I that sounds familiar.

 

[Sander]

I still don't get why KOTOR2 doesn't fit Star Wars.

The stupid absolutes so prevalent in Star Wars movies are all set 4000 years AFTER the events that play out in KOTOR 2. Placing the game's action such a long way back allowed for much liberty to be taken with the canon, as it isn't described as thoroughly as the SW Episodes stuff.

Wot?
Really. The stupid absolutes are the basis of almost everything in the Star Wars universe. They're the basis of the force, oif the Jedi, of the Sith and of every bit of interesting conflict. If you don't like that, then that's fine, but it *is* an integral part of Star Wars.

Ravager: are you really this stupid or are you just acting like it? Really, the comparison between Fallout and Star Wars is being made for a reason: KoTOR2 while perhaps being a good game in itself broke a lot of rules for the Star Wars universe. Your wheedling around this doesn't change a thing and is simply annoying, not to mention stupidly hypocritical.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Put it this way, there's plenty of other sci-fi IPs that are dark gritty and ambiguous if that's what you want you go buy/make a game for one of them you don't try and change a franchise into something it's not. Hmm I that sounds familiar.

May I ask for suggestions? I am really craving, drooling, and itching to get my nihilism "Whos the Bitch now/Where is your god now since I just deconstructed your entire universe because I was so full of hatred the veins in my neck destroy subatomic particles" fix. I really don't see any other RPGs out on the market as of now that can deliver that experience.

"And if anyone says fallout I'm going to rape them with a sand-paper strap-on in the eye. Yes, I'm aware Fallout exists and has those possibilities".

Wot?
Really. The stupid absolutes are the basis of almost everything in the Star Wars universe. They're the basis of the force, oif the Jedi, of the Sith and of every bit of interesting conflict. If you don't like that, then that's fine, but it *is* an integral part of Star Wars.

Exactly. Someone REALLY needs to give the Dune franchise a fucking shot of methamphetamine in the arm, which is the Star Wars universe if you took away almost all the absolutes and replaced them with subjectives.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I really don't see any other RPGs out on the market as of now that can deliver that experience.

I wasn't talking about what games are available, I was talking about developers finding the right IP for the story they want to tell or the game they want to make. If they've already bought an IP or been commissioned to make a game in someone else's franchise then to tell a story, make a game that fits that setting and doesn't contradict/change that franchise.

If they can't play in someone else's sandpit without taking a dump then they should make their own IP.

 

[Tagaziel]

I still don't understand it, primarily due to the fact that Star Wars is much more flexible and less detailed than Fallout and allows far more liberty to be taken with the setting than Fallout.

Star Wars is like Vonnegut's Ilium.

 

[Ravager69]

I don't understand how KotOR 2 is like Fallout 3. Did anyone wait 10 years for it? Is it the only title in the SW series? I highly doubt LA will stop making SW titles fitted for kids, so I don't think that one game diffrent is anything bad at all. Besides, it's still pretty much childish and cheesy at times.

And let's face it - SW was never about anything other than explosions, Jedi, lightsabers and Force powers. If you think otherwise, I think you are mistaken. George Lucas simply made "OMG LOOKIT TEH SWEET LAZRS!!!111!" movies years back for masses's entertainment and for the whole family to watch (because he'd get more money from it, not because he loves children), so crying only because tries to do it diffrent is a bit silly IMO. I am aware it was a milestone, but only in the matter of special effects.

I don't think it's a bad game only because it's a Bioware game (you expected a non-Bioware game from Bioware?), or because the company started to spawn it's clones, which were utter shit (Jade Empire or Mass Effect for example). KotOR 2 is the only Bioware game I enjoy replaying in fact, so don't mistake me for their fanboi.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

KotOR 2 is the only Bioware game I enjoy replaying in fact, so don't mistake me for their fanboi

Obsidian developed Kotor 2, not Bioware. Explains alot no?

 

[Ravager69]

I guess. But isn't Obsidian part of Bioware? With all this buying-lesser companies-by-big companies I no longer know who is who.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I still don't understand it, primarily due to the fact that Star Wars is much more flexible and less detailed than Fallout and allows far more liberty to be taken with the setting than Fallout.

Being 30 years old, with films, cartoons, books, comics and games etc coming out of it's wazzu I'd say Star Wars is more detailed than Fallout wouldn't you? Though yeah being set in a galaxy far far away with millions of potential planets to visit and thousands of years of fictional history does allow for a greater diversity than Fallout, though that doesn't mean you can change the fundamentals it's built on, that there is a light side and dark side and that sound does travel in a vacuum. I would say though that with it's ambiguous morality Fallout allows for greater flexibility.

I don't understand how KotOR 2 is like Fallout 3. Did anyone wait 10 years for it?

What has waiting 10 years got to do with anything? It's about respecting the intentions of the creator of the IP and staying true to the setting. That should be true for all products no matter how often they are released.

so I don't think that one game diffrent is anything bad at all.

Yet it's already spawned a series of comics, and IIRC Nihilus has already been referenced in other EU products. Since every SW product is canon unless stated otherwise it has an affect on the franchise as a whole. Given the the size of Star Wars it's possible that it's influence could be felt for a long time to come. Certainly long after everyone has forgotten Fallout ever existed. That is a bad thing.

And let's face it - SW was never about anything other than explosions, Jedi, lightsabers and Force powers. If you think otherwise, I think you are mistaken.

I think you are the one mistaken, yes it has all that and yes that might be all young children get from it. It was never profound and it's morality is simplistic but that morality is runs through everything and can't simply be tossed aside. No one is expecting you to go to Star Wars for enlightenment or to look to it as a moral compass, if it's not your cup of tea then fine but yes it is more to some of us. Well rather a lot of people actually, and no not all are jedi wannabes.

I guess. But isn't Obsidian part of Bioware? With all this buying-lesser companies-by-big companies I no longer know who is who.

*Slaps face*, no cancel that slaps Ravager69.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

No one is expecting you to go to Star Wars for enlightenment or to look to it as a moral compass, if it's not your cup of tea then fine but yes it is more to some of us. Well rather a lot of people actually, and no not all are jedi wannabes.

Indeed, but still simplistic. And why is that? It was the dumbed down version of Dune.


Quote*

Muad'Dib could indeed see the Future, but you must understand the limits of this power. Think of sight. You have eyes, yet cannot see without light. If you are on the floor of a valley, you cannot see beyond your valley. Just so, Muad'Dib could not always choose to look across the mysterious terrain. He tells us that a single obscure decision of prophecy, perhaps the choice of one word over another, could change the entire aspect of the future. He tells us "The vision of time is broad, but when you pass through it, time becomes a narrow door." And always, he fought the temptation to choose a clear, safe course, warning "That path leads ever down into stagnation."




Sounds familiar as hell doesn't it? Wait, is that you Kriea?


Dune should be considered Religious material in my opinion. But, back on topic.

Yet it's already spawned a series of comics, and IIRC Nihilus has already been referenced in other EU products. Since every SW product is canon unless stated otherwise it has an affect on the franchise as a whole. Given the the size of Star Wars it's possible that it's influence could be felt for a long time to come. Certainly long after everyone has forgotten Fallout ever existed. That is a bad thing.

What's funny, is that since KOTOR 2 now is canon, Yoda is an evil, self-centered son of a bitch, Mace Windu is a flaunting, ego maniac, Obi - Wan is a mystic sack of shit, and the fall of the Republic into the hands of the Empire was because of bad Karma because of the pretentiousness of the jedi Council. Luke Skywalker is the only "Good" jedi since late and after the films he fell to the dark-side, and afterwards became "Neutral"/Self-less/Thing"

Existentialism really puts a twist on everything in the whole damn storyline.





*Edit*. But in all actuality, It is BIOWARE's fault that the Storyline moved in this Direction in the first place. Comparing the 2 "Codes" for the religious entities in KOTOR and KOTOR 2 reveals some contrast, and points in the direction of Nihilism.


Jedi Code:

There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no chaos: there is harmony
There is no death; there is the Force.

{So, either a Soul-Suicide}




Sith Code:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

{Or become a Superman}

Odd, KOTOR 1 technically screwed the franchise, not 2.


*Also, it is worth noting that those are the codes set in stone for the whole franchise now, thanks Bioware."






*SUPER EDIT*


Ohh shit, just remembered something. In Epsiode I, which was written by George Lucas, it is revealed that the Force is actually microscopic bacteria that allows the host the have access to "Special Powers". So now, everything ever written about the Force in SW, is nothing more than an interpretation of floating amebas residue. HAHA! Now, that means Kotor 1-2 are not branching off from the original franchise, but are now apart of it. All arguments now deconstructed.