People discuss KotOR 2

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

The code comes from the roleplaying game IIRC, where KotOR gets a lot of it's rules from, or at least part of it. I never did say that KotOR 2 is solely responsible or that other EU products haven't introduced ideas that didn't fit, but gathering all the bad bits of recent years and bundling them up in KotOR 2 just concentrates the problem.

The midi-chlorians aren't the force, but I did say that trying to fit hard sci-fi into Star Wars also didn't work well. Though saying that right from the first film there must be some biological aspect to force sensitivity if Luke inherits his from his father.

 

[Mettle]

Sounds familiar, I think I read about the code in the Jedi PnP way before the games were out, but I can't confirm it since I don't have them at home, they're in the house we PnP in.

 

[Ravager69]

I guess SW lore is all fucked up so hard right that it wasn't KotOR 2's fault in the first place. Take a look at the books\comics set after the Return of Jedi. Shit, even Kyle Katarn is in it. Besides, many of the "basis" of SW stems from it's author's ignorance\ignoring some facts for the sake of better effects, so why cultivate it?

Besides, I don't know how you feel about it, but I am a bit tired of every SW title being about the same stuff set in diffrent timeline and with other characters with ridiculous names. Some changes may be painful, but required. Anyway, with so much mess in the lore right now it's hard to tell what SW is about anymore.

 

[Sander]

I guess SW lore is all fucked up so hard right that it wasn't KotOR 2's fault in the first place. Take a look at the books\comics set after the Return of Jedi. Shit, even Kyle Katarn is in it. Besides, many of the "basis" of SW stems from it's author's ignorance\ignoring some facts for the sake of better effects, so why cultivate it?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Star Wars was built around absolute, black&white morality which KoTOR2 neatly decided to completely.
Try to understand this, please. All you're doing now is making up excuses and stupid irrelevant examples.

Besides, I don't know how you feel about it, but I am a bit tired of every SW title being about the same stuff set in diffrent timeline and with other characters with ridiculous names. Some changes may be painful, but required. Anyway, with so much mess in the lore right now it's hard to tell what SW is about anymore.

I know some people who are tired of Fallout always being turn-based, isometric and set on the West Coast.
Quit being an idiot.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

I guess SW lore is all fucked up so hard right that it wasn't KotOR 2's fault in the first place. Take a look at the books\comics set after the Return of Jedi. Shit, even Kyle Katarn is in it. Besides, many of the "basis" of SW stems from it's author's ignorance\ignoring some facts for the sake of better effects, so why cultivate it?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Star Wars was built around absolute, black&white morality which KoTOR2 neatly decided to completely.
Try to understand this, please. All you're doing now is making up excuses and stupid irrelevant examples.

Besides, I don't know how you feel about it, but I am a bit tired of every SW title being about the same stuff set in diffrent timeline and with other characters with ridiculous names. Some changes may be painful, but required. Anyway, with so much mess in the lore right now it's hard to tell what SW is about anymore.

I know some people who are tired of Fallout always being turn-based, isometric and set on the West Coast.
Quit being an idiot.

Did you even read my post Sander? The Black/White morality was fucked even before Kotor 2 came along.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Besides, many of the "basis" of SW stems from it's author's ignorance\ignoring some facts for the sake of better effects, so why cultivate it?

Yeah why cultivate it? By picking up some of the themes that have crept into the EU over the years KotOR 2 perpetuates the errors. It gives them more credibility.

Besides, I don't know how you feel about it, but I am a bit tired of every SW title being about the same stuff set in diffrent timeline and with other characters with ridiculous names. Some changes may be painful, but required.

So you find another IP to watch, read, play. You don't change someone else's work.

Anyway, with so much mess in the lore right now it's hard to tell what SW is about anymore.

Even if that was true it still wouldn't make it right to do as you please when working in the EU.

The Black/White morality was fucked even before Kotor 2 came along.

FO2 introduced real life post 1950's weapons, lots of easter eggs and New Reno, which while being a great rp experience in itself and no place within the setting. FOT continued the trend of real life weapons, replacing virtually all the generic non-energy weapons with real guns, added lots of juvenile humour and of course the fascist Brotherhood. FOBOS ditched the pnp mechanics along with practically everything else and added thongs. Does that mean the FO3 devs can do what they want because the IP is already messed up?

 

[Deleted member 53669]

FO2 introduced real life post 1950's weapons, lots of easter eggs and New Reno, which while being a great rp experience in itself and no place within the setting. FOT continued the trend of real life weapons, replacing virtually all the generic non-energy weapons with real guns, added lots of juvenile humour and of course the fascist Brotherhood. FOBOS ditched the pnp mechanics along with practically everything else and added thongs. Does that mean the FO3 devs can do what they want because the IP is already messed up?

We're not talking about game-play mechanics, we are talking about the actual story and theme of Starwars. Don't Straw-man here. FO-POS and Tic-Tacs didn't change the perception of morality on a grand-scale. But, even if FO3 does do that in the future, the changes in the franchise would not be done by the creators of Fallout. Star-Wars's changes were.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

We're not talking about game-play mechanics, we are talking about the actual story and theme of Starwars. Don't Straw-man here.

What straw man, are not game mechanics as important to a computer game as morality is to a modern morality play?

FO-POS and Tic-Tacs didn't change the perception of morality on a grand-scale.

Who said anything about Fallout's morality? I'm talking about several products in a franchise gradually introducing things (be they concepts or items) that don't fit the setting. Then another product taking all those individual threads and weaving them into something that has only the most superficial resemblance to the original premise. That holds true whether you are talking game mechanics, morality or herbs and spices.

But, even if FO3 does do that in the future, the changes in the franchise would not be done by the creators of Fallout. Star-Wars's changes were.

No they weren't the changes to the EU were brought in by a variety of authors invited to work in the setting. They have as much relation to the creation of Star Wars as the FO3 devs have to the creation of Fallout.

 

[Ravager69]

Things fun 30 years ago (first SW movies were in the 70's, right?) aren't so entertaining now, the way people look on things changes during the years, the same special effects aren't so cool and the same black&white story is boring. I guess Lucas Arts saw this and now tries to adhere to this by adjusting their franchise. It's their choice, they could tell Obsidian how should they do their game if they'd wanted to keep the things old way. But they didn't. SW is about entertainment and has to change if is to do it's job.

Another thing - you can't compare SW to Fallout and expect it to make sense. These are very diffrent things, one being a movie and the other a computer game. SW is about going to a cinema with a couple of friends to watch a cool movie and not really caring for it's credibility, where Fallout is about a deep single player computer simulation of PnP experience. You can modify the first and it'll be fine as long as it will do it's job (entertain people) and still have shiny explosions, but when you tinker with the second, it may suddenly loose all it's charm, because there are many factors (SPECIAL, ISO+TB, a world full of irony and violence, sense of loneliness, everything in retro-50's style, Mad Max\Star Trek references, great dialogues and a deep story) that made it unique. Take one thing away and it becomes broken. SW's success is based on lasers, new technology, Jedi and the Force, everything else is ONLY A BACKGROUND, put there because something had to fill the time between fighting scenes. So no, I don't think I'm being a hypocrite when I say I am pissed at Bethesda for screwing up Fallout and not caring for KotOR 2's changing an already broken franchise, that is set on milking as much cash as possible.

And besides, there are things worth saving and things unworthy of saving. I doubt we'll loose anything, except for a good-night story with changes made to SW.

 

[Sander]

Did you even read my post Sander? The Black/White morality was fucked even before Kotor 2 came along.

I assumed your post was jesting.
I don't see how the presence of midichlorians being correlated to force attenuation makes for shady morals.

Ravager, for the love of god, are you really this idiotic? All you're repeating is essentially 'Eh, I don't care about Star Wars so they can do whatever they want.'
And thereby you lose any credibility when it comes to any other IP.

And besides that, this:

SW's success is based on lasers, new technology, Jedi and the Force, everything else is ONLY A BACKGROUND, put there because something had to fill the time between fighting scenes

Is complete hogwash.
Star Wars succeeded because it created an essentially children's movie where there were very clear (and largely overdone) presences of good and evil for people to sympathise with and hate.
The special effects are there to give it a setting. In fact, most of the story was lifted from a Japanese samurai movie by Kurosawa.

 

[Ravager69]

Are you that blind? I used more than that argument, it being only a part of what I am trying to say.

It's not "I don't care, because it sucks anyway", but "I think change is for the better". Try using your brain sometimes, instead of accusing other of not doing it. After 30 years, SW stories began to be repetitive and boring, but I think there is still a lot of potential in SW galaxy's lore. You are basically saying that we cannot change it, because George Lucas made a goodie-good movie for kids YEARS AGO and that is the only way of doing it. I think even he would like to somehow improve this franchise.

 

[Sander]

Are you that blind? I used more than that argument, it being only a part of what I am trying to say.

It's not "I don't care, because it sucks anyway", but "I think change is for the better". Try using your brain sometimes, instead of accusing other of not doing it.

*sigh*
Why do you feel change is for the better?
That's right, because you don't like the way the Star Wars universe was set up, with a black&white morality built into it.

After 30 years, SW stories began to be repetitive and boring, but I think there is still a lot of potential in SW galaxy's lore. You are basically saying that we cannot change it, because George Lucas made a goodie-good movie for kids YEARS AGO and that is the only way of doing it.

This is *no different* from saying 'you know, Fallout was good 10 years ago, but it got boring, so now we're doing something new!'
The only difference is that you approve of this change but not of Fallout's change.

 

[Ravager69]

So basically you say, that I can't have diffrent opinion on two diffrent matters? Where's harm in that? These aren't identical situations...if I think Fallout's getting raped by a bunch of morons, whose effect of work will prove to be worse than the original and say it's wrong, then I can't say what Obsidian did in KotOR 2 is right, even though I think it introduced a fresh point of view to a stagnated frenchise (sp?)?

As for the changes specifically, I shall write something shortly.

 

[Per]

So basically you say, that I can't have diffrent opinion on two diffrent matters? Where's harm in that?

You are allowed to think that bananas are swell and corn is yucky, but if you motivate it by saying that bananas are swell because they're yellow and corn is yucky because it's also yellow, people are going to question your taste/judgement/rationality/something.

 

[Sander]

So basically you say, that I can't have diffrent opinion on two diffrent matters?

I'm saying that claiming that changing the core of one franchise is good while changing the core of an arbitrary other franchise is wrong for the same reasons is hypocritical.

Where's harm in that? These aren't identical situations...if I think Fallout's getting raped by a bunch of morons, whose effect of work will prove to be worse than the original and say it's wrong, then I can't say what Obsidian did in KotOR 2 is right, even though I think it introduced a fresh point of view to a stagnated frenchise (sp?)?

Do you really not see that all you're doing is using some pretty new words to justify your hypocrisy? You're calling Star Wars a stagnated franchise and KotOR2's changes beneficial because you like the changes, you're calling Bethesda a bunch of morons and what they're doing rape because you don't like those changes.
There are no essential differences between both situations: in both cases a franchise's core features are changed by a new party (although arguably in KotOR 2's case with less of an impact as it's a spin-off in a different medium).

Really, all the reasons you have given so far amount to 'But I like Star Wars better this way'.
Good for you. That doesn't change anything about the similarity to Fallout's situation or your hypocrisy surrounding it.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

Sander Wrote:

I assumed your post was jesting.
I don't see how the presence of midichlorians being correlated to force attenuation makes for shady morals.

Eh, don't worry. I am unclear in my statements at times.

But the fact that the midichlorians were made present in the universe in the first place allowed the ability for shady morals and different branches of interpretations of the set system used in StarWars to occur. Technically, with that added, the force/midichlorians are now in the same boat as you could say a telepath with the scales of Magical divine powers/Using more of ones brains than most allowing telepathy.


requiem_for_a_starfury Wrote:

What straw man, are not game mechanics as important to a computer game as morality is to a modern morality play?

If your arguement is against KOTOR1-2's gameplay mechanics, than that is valid. If it is against the actual story of KOTOR1-2's universe, then it's a Strawman argument to throw in Fallout's mechanics being changed in FO3 as a allusion to KOTOR1-2's storyline.

 

[Sander]

Sander Wrote:

I assumed your post was jesting.
I don't see how the presence of midichlorians being correlated to force attenuation makes for shady morals.

Eh, don't worry. I am unclear in my statements at times.

But the fact that the midichlorians were made present in the universe in the first place allowed the ability for shady morals and different branches of interpretations of the set system used in StarWars to occur. Technically, with that added, the force/midichlorians are now in the same boat as you could say a telepath with the scales of Magical divine powers/Using more of ones brains than most allowing telepathy.

Heh, I just looked up midi-chlorians on wikipedia (whether it can be trusted here no on knows, but it's pop culture so probably it can) and I got surprised by the retardedness of a virgin birth created by midi-chlorians, and then even moreso by the ridiculousness of Palpatine actually creating Anakin.

But that's beside the point. I still don't see how the midichlorians remove the 'Sith bad, Jedi good' from the Star Wars with a good and bad side to the force. It's pretty much Dark Side - abuse of midichlorians, Light Side - use of midichlorians.

Unless we're getting into an area where the midichlorians are essentially running the universe and used the Sith to upset the republic and create a new balance in the universe.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

If your arguement is against KOTOR1-2's gameplay mechanics, than that is valid. If it is against the actual story of KOTOR1-2's universe, then it's a Strawman argument to throw in Fallout's mechanics being changed in FO3 as a allusion to KOTOR1-2's storyline.

My argument is that introducing changes that don't fit the setting/original design is wrong. That holds true whether talking about KotOR 2's story or Fallout's mechanics.

 

[Deleted member 53669]

If your arguement is against KOTOR1-2's gameplay mechanics, than that is valid. If it is against the actual story of KOTOR1-2's universe, then it's a Strawman argument to throw in Fallout's mechanics being changed in FO3 as a allusion to KOTOR1-2's storyline.

My argument is that introducing changes that don't fit the setting/original design is wrong. That holds true whether talking about KotOR 2's story or Fallout's mechanics.

That is a true statement. The discussion got rather confusing later on though and I couldn't fix in on your perception. The fact remains, however, that George Lucas didn't exactly try to stop the franchise from evolving into where it is now in the first place, he kinda laid a red mat for others to do so. It is as if the Midichlorian stuff was a Deus Ex Machina to what could occur afterwards. Fallout didn't have that type of evolution though, so now they are more so 2 seperate entities that are hard to compare if the creator of one helped initiate a new direction. Bethesda, in my opinion though, hijacked the Fallout franchise.



And no Sander, the Midichlorians don't disrupt the moral system of SW, but rather allow doors to be opened in that direction.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I don't see how a biological element, to the use of the force, opens the door for ambiguous morality. But that's a totaly different discussion.