Philosophy Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by ResetRPG, Jan 10, 2021.

  1. Paladin Hank

    Paladin Hank Still Mildly Glowing

    254
    May 6, 2018
    Last edited: May 25, 2022
  2. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    I was going to use the link but then decided against it !
     
  3. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Causality made you decide against it.
     
  4. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    Cause and effect ? Not my decision ?
     
  5. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Everything is caused by a previous causal chain of events. Every decision is the result of the entire universe playing out its causal relationships, mildly affected by quantum mechanical uncertainties, which in the grand scheme of things still behave classically.
    But since the universal function is is too complex it is impossible to know exactly and thus free will is a perfect illusion, indistinguishable from true free will.
     
  6. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    Causality can go right back to the big bang. What caused thermonuclear dynamics ? A god ? If so God would be the effect of what ? Was time and space just waiting for randomness to exert itself ? Or was it inevitable a cosmos would come out of nowhere. Science now says matter ......... or destroyed only works within certain parameters
     
  7. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Dont know where the laws of physics come from, but they dont come from human free will. Maybe a god created the laws of physics, or god is in the little quantum uncertainties. Who knows.
     
  8. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    Well tbh science now seems to be as fanciful as religion. I don't know if you have seen anything by prof Brian Cox. His programmes are all " Maybe this ". "Maybe that" then rambles about a pre universe made up from dark energy and dark matter all these suppositions mixed in with science fact. Then occasionally he will say. We don't know what dark matter is. It seems like the BBC now pushes the non existence of any higher power but cannot yet justify the science.
     
  9. Paladin Hank

    Paladin Hank Still Mildly Glowing

    254
    May 6, 2018
    One of the points in the article is that even if free will doesn't exist we should still believe in it because otherwise people would act less responsibly and use determinism as an excuse for their actions. I don't think this is necessarily true but I agree that we should keep believing in the illusion of free will because without it it would be very difficult to find the motivation to better ourselves and those around us.
     
  10. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    Whatever isms we are governed by I still think a person can gain some control over their will. As you say excuses can be made for any action. (I killed that man because god told me to)[ I was only carrying out orders]. If a person decided to abandon modern day life and live in a wilderness, metaphysical things would determine some actions. ie I will not gather food today as it is pissing down with rain. Conditioning from early life, religious indoctrination is all out of our control. If we rebel it is cause and effect, the rebellion was caused by what went before. Try not to be too unambitious !
     
  11. Mr.Tboy

    Mr.Tboy First time out of the vault

    25
    Apr 7, 2021
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  12. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well, that's what science is, we don't know anything for sure inherently. The issue with dark matter and dark energy is that we see certain phenomena (galactic rotational speed for dark matter, and universal expansion for dark energy) that don't line up with the predictions from the Standard Model according to what we observe. Apparently, there is more mass and more energy in the universe than what we can readily observe, so in the Standard Model we have to assume there is "dark" matter and energy in the sense that they're not directly observed yet. This is easier and more reasonable than just assuming that the Standard Model is false because it delivers a LOT of really good predictions, but we also know that it is not yet complete. There is no quantum gravity yet, which would definitely help with the descriptions of black holes and such. Furthermore, it is incredibly hard to make any assumptions about the early universe since it's so hard to observe and the energy densities would be so high, so the at the moment the Standard Model is a very, VERY complicated mess of theories with only particle accelerator experiments to verify, and these big expensive fuckers are just not enough to get in the right energy ranges. However, the LHC did already deliver some great results concerning some open ends of the Standard Model.
    People need to stop believing that science and physics in particular are already finished and that it's already supposed to explain everything. It's not, a lot is still open. But in all the experiments we have not seen anything that breaks causality in a way that would suggest a higher power or anything supernatural. The closest to that is quantum mechanical superposition, and that is also up to interpretation, quite literally.
    But as such there is no reason to doubt a deterministic universe, as on anything but the smallest microscale the universe, as far as we can tell, IS deterministic. Everything is governed by cause and effect and physical laws, even though we might not know the laws yet, and even though the relationships might be too complex to ever fully understand in the sense that we can predict the future of everything with perfect clarity.
    I'd agree, however, in the end the consciousness itself is the emergent result of chemical and physical processes in the brain (as far as we know). Thus we think to have control and free will, but every thought process is also just the result of these chemical and physical processes and thus deterministic. It might be too complex to predict, but if somehow the Big Bang would be repeated with exactly the same initial conditions, it would play out the same way.
    Consider Conway's Game of Life as a very simplified model. You have a square grid of cells, each of which interacts with its eight direct neighbours. Each cell is either populated or not, and there are very simple rules to wether a cell is populated or not in the next iteration. Simple rules, but they create emergent phenomenon. Start a new grid with a random pattern of populated cells and over the course of the following iterations cells will live or die, and sometimes they will form patterns that emulate lifeforms, self-propagating arrays of cells that behave in certain ways. It has simple rules, but the size of the grid makes it harder to predict the final state after N iterations of the Game due to the complex interactions that can happen. Yet, if you start a new Game of Life with the same initial conditions, it will play out the same way.
    As far as we can tell, the universe would do the same, except the rules are nigh infinitely more complex, and it's likely impossible to make perfect predictions. But still, the "Game" would still play out the same way if started again with the same initial conditions.
    "You", the person and consciousness, is also a deterministic process. If "you" decide to go against the grain do something different, like not clicking on a link on a whim, then that "whim" is the result of every single thing that led up to this moment in your life, and the lifes of your parents, and basically the entire universe.
    Free will is a perfect illusion.
     
  13. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    I had logged in earlier and read your post but my head was too fuzzy to make any reply. Funnily enough my ' will ' had caused nicotine withdrawal . I had to yield and buy ciggies (again). I know a quantum computer is being worked on but will it have any idea the language(if any) of it's programs was artificial, not part of it's nature nor a phenomena. Maybe the science of super computing will lie within an amalgam of the electro chemical matter we call our brain and plug ins, add ons we now call cybernetics. Philosophy only reflects the knowledge of the present and past if we could determine the future then science will have made a leap.
     
  14. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    Quantum computers, fundamentally, are just computers. Nothing about them is inherently "AI" or self-consciousness or anything. The big difference between regular computers and quantum computers is that regular computers work with bits of 1 and 0, while quantum computers use qubits, which are 1 and 0 and superpositions of 1 and 0. Furthermore, they will use quantum mechanical phenomenon like entanglement and so on to enable certain algorithms that allow a few very fast operations that can't be replicated in a classical way. There's a lot of mysticism about quantum computers, but let's just say this: They will, very likely, remain just specialty machines for very special operations such as prime number factorization, because there aren't many quantum algorithms that actually have any advantage over classical algorithms.
     
  15. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    I know 1 and 0 bit computing = a yes or no situation, on or off, do or don't and quantum computers have more 'alternatives'. Is the cat in the box, is it out. Can a single atom share particles or as part of an element have atoms light years away on the other side of the universe. I was a bit surprised you see no great future for quantum computing as it's only in it's infancy. I only drifted into mentioning language or consciousness as the original question concerned reality, free will and illusory stuff. If the universe has nothing chaotic and everything is pre determined as working like clockwork then human existence means we are just bystanders with little scope for self. That does seem pseudo religious as in the great architect in the sky or the will of allah. Kant Hegel, Marx then later philosophers keep to the basic US our relationship to understanding life. If life goes on regardless and we never get the theory of everything to fully understand gravity and other stuff of a physical nature then everything is meaningless. We are no better than Ants or Bees. Religion and mans laws just keep people from doing things. They send you to jail or death or the worrisome dread the pearly gates, the burning in Helsinki and so on. ELILists say we are all fucked and we might as well call it a day lol.
     
  16. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    Aug 16, 2010
    I see a lot of future in quantum computing, but I also actually studied this stuff at university so I know what it is about and dont have to rely on the voodoo that pop science peddles around it.
    As for the free will, everybody seems to always ignore the "it's a perfect illusion" part. It might not be actual free will, but you cant really tell that it isnt.
     
  17. william dempsey

    william dempsey Veteran of the psychic wars.

    623
    Jan 23, 2022
    Well I guessed as much that you were educated in that subject. I know people will mention more about choice than say free will as in we work to earn for family etc etc. This was mentioned by Paladin Hank who raised the subject. I have seen this topic raised many times. When I was first on youtube an atheist posse would bicker with theists. That Immendham guy the EFIList would rant about physics, philosophy and get really wired with people. One theologian would put out videos " How he dismissed a troll punk ". His acolytes would gang up on people and they would block any dissent lol. I even noticed a hidden subscriber FIRSTCAUSEARGUMENT it became quite comic. If the first post by Hank was more of an order than a suggestion I see that as a change ! If the consequence of not reading the article was death then the expected response would be it would get read. As it stood (the original poser) I could chose yes, read or no do not read. The only other scenario I could think of would maybe to ask someone else to read the article then digest it then tell me it's content. As I said earlier and to agree with your 'pop science' lots of small holes get filled to fit the trend, hypotheses. Again a British TV programme expanded on the theory that dinosaurs became extinct because of collisions, yes Earth was banged by collisions but is fitted to their 'logical' explanation. It really did surprise me when the science prof pushed non facts and speculation as if science did have all the answers.
     
  18. Feday Of Madness

    Feday Of Madness Working Class Hero

    78
    Jun 7, 2022
    Yes we do, a lot of people are clogged up with make belief and dreams that are way too egotistical and self centered to ever come true not to mention perfection.
    Other then that what people perceive as "happiness" I can only tell that. Yes humans have unlimited potential, but they're not gods anything humanity made wasn't out of thin air, its was shown before and then refined and as many know we are pretty much nearing the end. Even the exceptional people who set out to change the world were caught up or used as an excuse of their past to pave their way but ultimately they felt beyond and alone. They think they're special. I admire their fervor but I for one think many people just aren't meant to be and should lead humble lives. Many are empty in wealth yet a kid buried in sand in Somalia is grateful that he's led this life. Without faith I can tell you the edge of human mind someone can reach is that the truth is ungraspable, its out of our reach. The "vibes" and emotions you feel in a second wind are just meant to fade away not to be caged and harnessed. I wouldn't be wrong to tell many people are insane. And to tell the truth even if someone spilled all the answers, the ultimate revelation it still wouldn't matter. People just don't care. And they're right not to. I will say that this is incredibly painful and stressing but it's own reward. Don't fret over it. Being ordinary is a blessing. This Isint some cringe shit like "knowledge is a curse" no its not, they wouldn't perceive it even if they wanted to. I always thought most western philosophers were dumb and I'm right to say that since the first philosophers of the cradle of humanity like thales, Solomon, rumi. Have explained it impeccably but it won't matter if you absorb all this esoteric knowledge. It's all effort and wished, wishes anyone can do it but the effort? Trust me it's not worth it. You don't need to know anything else but hold your family close.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  19. KingArthur

    KingArthur The Blobtit of Blaviken

    Jun 25, 2018
    This was shockingly wholesome in the end.

    But also @Paladin Hank this is my response
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  20. Black_Electric

    Black_Electric It Wandered In From the Wastes

    108
    Jun 7, 2022
    Not sure if whether or not we have free will is all that important to begin with. At the very least, the illusion is there. I feel like I can make my own decisions and path in life. I can knock over that vase or crack open a can of beer whenever I (seemingly) please. And if that illusion is strong enough then I think the question of wheather or not free will actually exists isn't important.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1