Eyenixon said:
It's a video game, not a god damn book, what am I supposed to expect? Poetry and deliberation on the meaning of life and belief?
Yes, a human being with developed higher intellectual functions is supposed to enjoy something else besides the instant "numbaz" gratification.
If I want that, I would watch a film that exists to ask questions, such as Stalker or read a book that does so for itself, as in The Glass Bead Game, but when I play a video game I desire a game and when I play an RPG I desire a damn good RPG.
You are creating a false dichotomy between the depth of writing and characterizations on one hand, and interactivity on the other hand. A game, unlike a book, or a movie, can have both, as PS:T clearly shows to those able to pay attention.
Writing does not mean squat for depth in regards to what drives the backbone of a video game, it doesn't mean anything because as far as writing concerns itself in PS:T, there is so little to do with the way the game plays, the whole experience is very linear and your choices affect little beyond what I mentioned before, a flat XP bonus or some useless trinket.
Your first sentence is false, as evidenced by the best games in adventure and RPG genres, where writing has a significant effect on the appeal of a game.
Your second sentence is flase as well, as from the mechanics standpoint the whole game can be viewed as a huge character generator, where your choices, made in different situations, have huge effect on your character (recalling memories, stat changes and alignment shifts are very imoportant in the context of the game, and they are governed by player's stats and by player's choices, as they are supposed to be in a RPG).
Where's the depth? Apparently someone decided that it belongs in the words and the game play can take a backseat, it's just too bad that they forgot to provide the human reactions that gives these words depth and instead dump out mere sprinklings of character sculpted dialog smothered by excessive, philosophical, Great Walls of words. Chris Avellone took a big page from Ayn Rand, whether he likes it or not, a big, size six font monologue laden page of explicit "smart".
Newsflash, comprehending the words and choosing the answer that fits your character among the many presented responses (dictated by your stats) IS a part of the gameplay. Any time a player needs to make a choice, he is actively participating in a game, hence the dialogue, that you need not only read through, but act upon, is no less part of the gameplay and intellectually stimulating than taking an aimed shot at a super mutant's eye. In addition to intellectual stimulation, good writing provides another feat reserved exclusively for human beings - emotional stimulation.
What is your definition of depth? A plethora of dialog trees with some excessively existential philosophical writing that at times forced me to meander a break just so I would not groan in anguish for an extended period of time?
There is not much depth in PS:T, for all its other commendable qualities it's a static storyline with varying alignments slightly affecting the course of the action as far as emotional tinting can be concerned. You kill all you come across, make the lives of others miserable, the story is still the same, the Nameless One still must atone for his unspeakable past crime and that crime, whatever it may be, is still the same, similarly, so are your incarnations still unchanging as well as their past deeds.
Translation: oh my, the game has a story and it uses many written words, that's outrageous!
While the story of the Nameless One has a fixed start and a fixed ending, you have more than enough opportunities in shaping the Nameless One's persona and influencing the world around you, for good or for evil. Many side quests have multiple solutions with significantly different outcomes, and many of them can be completed through different (combat or non-combat) means. PS:T doesn't compare with Fallout or Arcanum in that department (though in Fallout you also have fixed starting and ending points, as you need to destroy the Master and the Military base - joining with the Master doesn't qualify as the real ending, no more than the ending of PS:T of becoming the Silent King of the Dead Nations, however PS:T could have used ending slides to reflect the consequences of your choices through the game, especially in Sigil where TNO's actions could have quite an echo). However, PS:T is the only game where the side quests are centered around the prevailing motives of the game (belief, alignement, the Planes, redemption, the butterfly effect etc.), while in other games the side quests are more often than not detached from the body of the main quest.
What depth is there in the character, beyond his excessive ethical and philosophical musings? None, you're restricted to a few basic and uninteresting classes, only one of which is interesting or useful to play as at all (the Mage obviously) and character development is restricted to your tedious interactions with the denizens of the Hive or Curst or where else the game eventually leads you.
Depth is in the character and you are, if able, supposed to discover that depth by interacting with different people you meet at the streets of Sigil, Curst, etc. The fact that you state that the character interaction of PS:T is tedious leads me to believe that this is the game that doesn't fit your particular subjective taste, or from another perspective, you are not fit to play this game, so whay exactly do you post on this topic? It is apparent that PS:T is not designed to suit your wet dreams of playing an uber character taking over the world after reaching level 100.
There are no options available to you, and the system behind the game is arguably even shallower and more basic than Fallout 3's, the game can hardly be considered a roleplaying game as it never truly concerns itself with the niceties of the genre. A horde of stat checks in dialog is hardly a true display of a roleplaying game's fervor in meeting the qualifications of its genre as a veritable and definable RPG "experience".
The system behind the game is the simplified AD&D used in all IE games of that era (BG, IWD, BG2), along with the same mediocre RTWP combat present in all those titles. The difference are the numerous stat checks in dialogues, and the fact that your choices have a profound effect on your stats, your alignment, and even your companions' morale (the morale stat is now visible thanks to the bugfix and restoration efforts by Qwinn and Scient). PS:T system might be basic, but is used to the fullest in the context of the game, and comparing it to the bland POS that is Foblivion is a sign of incurable cluelessness.
There are no alternations respective to character action, or even your dialog choices which seems to be the root of Torment's praise. Rather, your fellow party members experience some worthless "growth" such as Dak'kon's interaction with the Nameless One and the Ring, or Nordom's improvements as you fiddle with his programming.
Personal character growth and coming to terms with yourself and/or your past actions, or as you put it "worthless "growth" ", is an important motif of the game. Your companions experience it as well as you do, and also the connection between them and the Nameless One is revealed, providing the player feedback on how much TNO has affected the world during his lifetimes.
But what does this all mean if the combat is utterly reprehensible?
Suffer no such illusions that Torment's combat is passable, or in some strange madness of unclarity consider it to be the same as those in other Infinity Engine titles. For one thing, there is almost no ranged combat, a massive part of nearly any AD&D game. Spells are incredibly unbalanced, sludging either in the realm of useless or entirely overpowered, and to force this assertion into extremity, most buffs and status effect spells are completely irrelevant and hardly ever need to be used, something that cannot, with utter certainty, be said of any other Infinity Engine game.
Weapon choice is limited, as is armor, character development is minimal, the view is zoomed in far too close making combat a chaotic poorly paced affair that fills up the entirety of the screen. Not only that, but spells are supremely annoying, your best options constantly display incredibly bothersome animations that once again, serve to break up the pacing of combat.
Unless you are playing the game with your beer goggles on, it's obvious that the combat system is almost the same as in other IE titles (the only difference being the spell system). As in other IE titles, combat is mediocre. There are ranged weapons in the game (Nordom's crossbows). The fact that there are no bows or giant mega holy vorpal avenger swords so you can't play "an Elvish archer" or "a Paladin with a big sword" can only be viewed as a bonus. The fact that you don't get to play dress-up as often as you want to is also not a flaw at all (even Fallout has only a few types of armor/clothes). Spells (after bug fixes) are in fact more balanced than their IE counterparts (melf's minute meteors, stoneskin, iron skins, abi-dalzim's horrid wilting, time stop, let alone epic spells improved alacrity and dragon's breath from BG 2 and unlimited monster summoning from BG 1 come to mind first as being unbalanced). Spell animations are a matter of taste - I liked them more than the spell animations in any other RPG title. The view is not zoomed to close, the control over the battle is complete (unlike in NWN 2 titles, for example) - are you playing on 320x240?
I don't claim that PS:T has good combat, but claiming that its combat is worse than other IE titles or any major title (except TOEE) that came out after it is ludicrous.
Let's compare:
BG 1 combat: summon monster xtimes, select all, attack
PS:T combat: Ignus' terror, select all, attack (+ use a few high level spells for stronger opponents like Trias, heal with Fall from Grace against tougher opponents)
BG 2 combat:
stoneskin, select all, attack (mage with melf's minute meteors)
against dragons: lower resistance x3, greater malison, finger of death
against the demilich: protection from magic, abjuration immunity, attack with >+4 weapons
IWD, IWD 2 combat: select all, attack, hack, slash, repeat until you get old
Somehow, and I really don't understand how anyone who isn't a complete and utter moron at game development could manage this, the die rolls are utterly erratic and aimless. Damage amounts are all over the place, to the point that the Nameless One swinging around a toothpick dagger all of a sudden performs a heinous amount of damage without a critical.
This, I assume, can be blamed on the fact that Black Isle stripped down many of the complexities of the system in order to compensate for the lack of ranged weaponry and focused on the superfluous glossing of atmosphere and dialog.
This is incorrect. You are either playing an unpatched version or are spreading false information.
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