Plot Holes of Fallout 4 - Spoilers

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by SportBrotha, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. Irwin John Finster

    Irwin John Finster Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 13, 2015
    All I know is this: The way ME and traditional RPGs represent their worlds is far more immersive than whatever F4 does. And any notes, journals, and computer terminals that I have read in my 80 hours of Fallout 4 have not even come close to covering the vast amount of information that even Bioware's Mass Effect Codex or dialogues cover. Fact is, you might be able to pull off only having information from silly notes and terminals - but that isn't immersive either if you consider that most people don't write down everything neatly on a computer terminal or hand written diary as though they are expecting someone to stumble upon it.

    There is nothing wrong with having a Codex in a modern RPG, in fact quite the opposite. Witcher 3 had its bestiary, Pillars had one, and so many others. It is even necessary in my opinion. If you think these things aren't immersive then perhaps what you really want is a game from a different category, like an FPS.
     
  2. whirlingdervish

    whirlingdervish Brahmin Cavalry Commander

    Jul 3, 2007
    Having varied forms of information in the game beyond terminals and little books is a great way to increase immersion, even moreso when they are all in agreement on things so you can find stuff out in multiple ways instead of just hack terminal X or read book Y.

    In the Witcher 3 for example, if you had only the little book scraps or only the bestiary entries it would feel pretty lackluster.
    Fortunately you can also learn things just by listening to the npcs talk to each other.

    You can learn about George the witcher and the location of his grave just by standing near an old man in the nearby town and listening to him tell a story to the town's children. It's just flavor dialogue, but it tells you exactly where to find the grave without actually having taken that quest to find the Griffin school gear yet.
     
  3. omegaspruz

    omegaspruz First time out of the vault

    76
    Dec 1, 2015
    Not about the text but the way the text is presented.

    Please, provide an example, as I honestly dont remember that being the case, unless you refer to: "point at an item in inventory, or wherever, and it says hey its an object X".

    There is another school of story telling and lore, most commonly used by Id Software in Souls games, where there is an actual lore description of each object and I dont remember Fallout 1/2 having the lore part. I remember learning fallout 1 lore by playing the game and dialogue. At the time there was no lore, it was only making it up, and the delivery came through dialogue mostly.

    Thats also immersion breaking, because if you in real life picked up an object you wouldnt know its history straight away.
     
  4. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    I simply can't agree. The codex is a 4th wall breaking, encyclopedic, info dump. I can safely say that I have learned more about the world of Elder Scrolls and Fallout from books and terminals then I can recall learning from Mass Effect's info dumps.

    The terminals/diaries/notes in Fallout aren't written in such a way as if they expected someone to find it. Very rarely have I seen "In case anyone finds this!" or similar in Fallout. Not that such a thing never happens, but that its not common.

    I don't mind things like a codex or beatify if they are done so in an immersive way. They way they have been however, is not. Pillars was particularly bad about its bestiary.

    This - http://i.stack.imgur.com/s7N9b.png
    is something I should never see in a game trying to provide an immersive bestiary.
     
  5. GeorgieBest

    GeorgieBest First time out of the vault

    80
    Dec 14, 2015
    Look at all the mouth-frothing, indoctrinated bo**ocks spewing out of this guy's mouth! Your inane argument about inanity (oh look how brilliantly Bethesda weaves its narrative to make sense! - as if sense was anywhere near the goddamn agenda!) is mind-blowingly stupid! Just filtering the shit you spew mate is an exercise in futility.
    So after his whole tangential, ridiculous rant you made me read through (as you can't even show the decency to limit your stupidity to at least a few posts - no they have to be everywhere!) let me remind this moron that the very first dialogue you get to have in the mighty fallout 4 (with compelling and succinct factions and characters that you can really immerse yourself into! - yeah dude keep ridiculing yourself - even a fifteen year old could tell the game was written for him - i.e. fifteen year olds) is a war-veteran asking the vault-tec rep (who has been repeatedly trying to get in contact with him according to the wife) what vault-tec is (duh - i forgot!)
    Look, moron, writing a good, deep, compelling story and characters is tantamount to an rpg experience (and afterwards comes something you probably care little for -C&C) for at least me, and probably the majority of this site (so if you dont like lots of story or C&C that's your problem - not anyone elses) but this inane bu**shit rant about how you don't like the immersion-breaking moment when the character asks something about the world he should have been expected to know is so inane that you have clearly lost your marbles (it is completely irrelevant to the grand scheme of writing a good story in a videogame- an rpg will not have a good story by default because its main character is an amnesiac or a foreigner (the only two obvious solutions for asking character-obvious,player-oblivious stuff). Furthermore even the great fallout 4 has it because bethesda is not as stupid as you.
    Oh and before your epic reply, i'd just like to pre-emptively inform you that yes my autism is cool as ever :p
     
  6. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    I actually agree that was really dumb, and shouldn't have been in the game.

    I totally agree.

    I think C&C is great in games. I don't know why you would think otherwise.

    I dont think its irrelevant, nothing said or written in a game is irrelevant. I have never had my experience totally ruined by such things, but it still matters just like all other dialogue or text in the game.

    I totally agree with that. Nor do I think that is the solution to the problem.

    Or the game could just have an easily accessible supply of books, notes, and terminals, that give the player all the background information needed. And you simply just don't have the character ask those kinds of questions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  7. whirlingdervish

    whirlingdervish Brahmin Cavalry Commander

    Jul 3, 2007
    I bet he's implying that he agrees.

    Just watch, once it is mentioned, he will no longer agree and say that he was implying something completely opposed to this.

    :clap:
     
  8. Irwin John Finster

    Irwin John Finster Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Nov 13, 2015
    I can see what you mean about Elder Scrolls but I am not finding similar things with Fallout 4. Although I personally loved the encyclopedic nature of Morrowind, the books of Skyrim and Oblivion were nice. However for me it just wasn't the same as an encyclopedic codex that really explains the whole universe and its context. That is my personal preference for RPG-levels of dialogue and writing.
     
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  9. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    Ok, that's understandable. I know plenty of people who love just reading encyclopedias.

    I personally don't prefer the encyclopedic nature of Morrowind or a codex, because it just comes off as very dry, and uninteresting, when you present something so matter-of-fact. I find it a disservice to whatever elements make the game's unvierse unique, be it fantasy or sci-fi, when you boil it all down, and present it in a way you would present real world earth geography in.

    While not as detailed, or as factually accurate, as a codex is, the more personal nature of notes, books, and terminals, makes it feel far more like something written by the people of that world, as they see it, and as they experience it. Its not objective truth, but its the world as viewed by the people in it. That makes it far more interesting to read to me.

    A codex can dump more information, but it more often then not comes off as some developer giving me a history lesson, like I got when I was in school, about their world, and that's just not fun for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
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  10. GeorgieBest

    GeorgieBest First time out of the vault

    80
    Dec 14, 2015
    Asking- learn to read. Also stuffing everything in texts is not the way forward and is a very juvenile proposition to the concept - dialogue IS a legitimate means of providing info (Exposition - oooh!) since we probably learned to talk (ooooh!)
    I think what you should be arguing against is bad dialogue (which unfortunately fallout 4 has in spades - truly cringeworthy stuff at points)
     
  11. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    I agree dialogue is a legitimate means of providing info, I just think it should be used when it would actually be used, and not in cases were the two people speaking have no reason to be talking about said thing, other then for the player's benefit.

    If its some really esoteric concept, most, or all, of the general populace doesn't know about, and wouldn't realistically be in a book, then sure, dialogue the fuck out of it. I wouldn't have expected something like the big "twist" at the end of PoE to be in a book or anything. Thaos splurging that bit makes sense, he's the only one that knows.

    But if I am playing New Vegas or something, I dont think asking about the NCR is something that should happen, especially since the player came from the NCR, and should know about it already.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  12. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    So apparently giving the player and the character the option of asking more about the world from the characters (which also serves as characterization as different characters will have different outlooks on the same situations) is bad and the only way that information should be communicated is by forcing the player to find the in game wiki and spend 3 hours just reading exposition that could've actually been communicated through the narrative itself....


    Are people actually arguing that the FInal Fantasy 13 model is good? Jesus Christ....
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
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  13. GeorgieBest

    GeorgieBest First time out of the vault

    80
    Dec 14, 2015
    That's just badly-done exposition dude. Also i disagree you should be able to ask about the NCR (information better than no information - stuff in texts should not substitute dialogue information) - maybe you wanted it written better.
    Also in my opinion the only reason Bethesda dumps everything in pcs and books is so people dont have dialogue to slog through that might bog them down in the midst of all that awesome action! (action not being something im particularly fond of). I am not arguing against the use of books - i think its one of Bethesdas best ideas - i disagree with them getting rid of dialogue.
    Also dude im new at this i did reply to your other points in the message it just came up as part of your previous post- have a look, sry
     
  14. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    You never actually ask what is the NCR or the Legion. All the questions on them in New Vegas are worded as asking the person their opinion on them. The game explains what the NCR is at the beginning of the game through Ron Perlman's narration and the introductory movie. Your character and you start off already knowing the situation of the Mojave.
     
  15. whirlingdervish

    whirlingdervish Brahmin Cavalry Commander

    Jul 3, 2007
    Your character not knowing something at the start of the game, and learning of it through dialogue would totally stink of character progression and we all know that Perks are plenty of character progression for everyone. No need for meaningful stats or skills or traits or dialogue.
     
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  16. GeorgieBest

    GeorgieBest First time out of the vault

    80
    Dec 14, 2015
    This is what happens when people haven't a faintest clue with writing stories and the last book they read is a moldy, decimated corpse stuffed in an unused drawer :p (DIALOGUE FFS! - very very valid for exposition!!)
     
  17. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    I agree its badly done, but I think its badly done because I don't think its necessary.

    And I am not advocating the complete removal of that information, it still should be there. But that doesn't mean it should be via dialogue. How many times has anyone gone up to you, and asked you to give a brief summary of the history of your county? I, personally, have never seen that happen in real life. In video games however, it happens all the time, and its pretty stupid because basically no one asks things like that. The only answer most people should give you to such a question is either a response of "huh?", because they are so bewildered by the fact you asked such a bizarre question, or they point you to the nearest library/computer terminal with internet access so you can look it up yourself.

    Now political situations, sure, asking a person on their opinion of a given faction is fine, because that's not objective information. But asking about such utterly basic facts about the operation of a country your character lives in, as many RPGs let you do, is dumb. It shouldn't come up in conversation EVER because your character should already know this. There should have never been a point in Mass Effect for instance were Shepard asks what is a Mass Effect field, yet it happens.
     
  18. GeorgieBest

    GeorgieBest First time out of the vault

    80
    Dec 14, 2015
    What do you agree with that's badly done? i just said there's good and bad exposition and dialogue is the most valid means of communicating between human beings. I heard RR Martin made a career of dialogue exposition and world building (quite nicely done as well) and your here arguing without arguing that bad exposition is bad! WOW Sherlock anything else?
    Also as Walpnut said asking about someone's opinion about the NCR is about as valid as asking about someones opinion about Putin (AKA very valid). This perverse reality you live in where people exchange information only by looking it up on the web is simply the effects of growing up as a millenial (JK dont know you although you seem young by your posts - and alarmingly infatuated with a first person shooter disguised as an rpg- with very rushed cringeworthy dialogue). ALSO and drill it into your head - Sheppard asking about a mass effect field is not NECESSARILY BAD- it just depends on if it's written well...from my recollections mass effect 1 was written infinitely better than fallout 4.

    Let me explain further how stupid your argument for verisimilitude is... for you it makes more "realistic sense" that a terminal with the history and operations of a mass effect field should be installed next to it. How's that for butt-fu**ing realism (oooH!) - or do you want the information stashed somewhere in the great library of the citadel (admittedly that may sound interesting at first but it is truly such a stupid approach as in the narrative the player is just bombarded with incomprehensible shit!)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
  19. KillerBee256

    KillerBee256 Still Mildly Glowing

    212
    Oct 31, 2008
    GeorgieBest don't let the Bethesda fan boys get to you so much. If he's annoying you just put him on your ignore list.
     
  20. Someguy37

    Someguy37 Mildly Dipped

    592
    Nov 18, 2015
    -With your statement that "That's just badly-done exposition dude."
    -He writes books, which can only present information one way, via the text of the book. Games are not books, nor should they try to act like books for they are not books, they are games, and have multiple ways available to them to present information.
    -That's not what I was saying at all. Exposition is great, so long as its done in the way that it would be done. Some things are done by talking, others by reading books. Games have a have a habit of putting thats that would normally only be explained in books, into dialogue, due to older games really only having that means to communicate information to the player, despite this not being the case anymore.
    -I know, that's why I agreed as such.
    -I've never claimed thats the only means to get information, nor do I think that's the only way one should be able to get information in-game.
    -And I could say this site is alarmingly dedicated to hating on game you knew you were going to hate before you played them. But hell, most of the internet says that already. Fallout 4 is a fun game, nothing more.
    -I disagree with the premise that it can be written well. Unless Shepard is actually retarded, and has no clue about what is the space ship equivalent to a car engine, despite the fact he has been on space ships numerous times before the start of the game, its just dumb, no matter how its written.

    I honestly don't understand where you are getting this idea that I am saying all information should come from just books.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015