Plot Holes of Fallout 4 - Spoilers

[whirlingdervish]

Perhaps you implied it, like many other things that you will deny implying?

 

[Someguy37]

Perhaps you implied it, like many other things that you will deny implying?

If I did, I would like you to show me where.

I have tired to be as completely plain in my text as possible, even pointing out several times there are many things which wouldn't make sense to be in books. Such as an individual's political opinion, or big esoteric shit like the ending of PoE.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

In my humble opinion, I think it would be impossible to create an RPG with the kind of depth and rich, well-thought universe that traditional RPG fans expect without the use of exposition dialogue and a codex of some sort. It worked for Witcher 3, and Pillars, and has nothing to do with being out of date. It keeps pace with modern gaming as Witcher, Pillars, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect have clearly demonstrated. In Mass Effect you can straight up ask people things you would theoretically know as a character in the universe and it doesn't bother anyone that values more content over less content. If that breaks your immersion, I wouldn't even play video games period.

Moving away from this system to Fallout 4's "system," and I use that term as lightly as possible with F4, is simply removing content. If this is the way you really want the game to play out, you really shouldn't be looking to play an RPG. What you really want is a simple FPS. And changing an RPG to be an FPS while claiming it is an RPG is pretty insulting. There is a very clear market for traditional RPGs. I agree that ME and Dragon Age didn't really fit that mold, but compared to what we got with Fallout 4 they are definitely leagues ahead. Imagine removing the codex and exposition dialogue from Mass Effect but leaving the Data Pads and Computer Terminals that exist in the game - it would become as shallow and dull with little actual information that could teach you about the universe. And that is what happened with Fallout.

It's a shallow husk of a game where you can't ask anyone about anything and have to go snooping around in people's diaries for a few sentences of "backstory" that in no way amounts to building a wondrous and massive universe.

 

[GeorgieBest]

-What do you agree with that's badly done? i just said there's good and bad exposition and dialogue is the most valid means of communicating between human beings.
-I heard RR Martin made a career of dialogue exposition and world building (quite nicely done as well)
-and your here arguing without arguing that bad exposition is bad! WOW Sherlock anything else?
-Also as Walpnut said asking about someone's opinion about the NCR is about as valid as asking about someones opinion about Putin (AKA very valid).
-This perverse reality you live in where people exchange information only by looking it up on the web is simply the effects of growing up as a millenial
-(JK dont know you although you seem young by your posts - and alarmingly infatuated with a first person shooter disguised as an rpg- with very rushed cringeworthy dialogue)
-ALSO and drill it into your head - Sheppard asking about a mass effect field is not NECESSARILY BAD- it just depends on if it's written well

-With your statement that "That's just badly-done exposition dude."
-He writes books, which can only present information one way, via the text of the book. Games are not books, nor should they try to act like books for they are not books, they are games, and have multiple ways available to them to present information.
-That's not what I was saying at all. Exposition is great, so long as its done in the way that it would be done. Some things are done by talking, others by reading books. Games have a have a habit of putting thats that would normally only be explained in books, into dialogue, due to older needs realy only having that means to communicate information to the player, despite this not being the case anymore.
-I know, that's why I agreed as such.

Now political situations, sure, asking a person on their opinion of a given faction is fine, because that's not objective information.

-I've never claimed thats the only means to get information, nor do I think that's the only way one should be able to get information in-game.
-And I could say this site is alarmingly dedicated to hating on game you knew you were going to hate before you played them. But hell, most of the internet says that already. Fallout 4 is a fun game, nothing more.
-I disagree with the premise that it can be written well. Unless Shepard is actually retarded, and has no clue about what is the space ship equivalent to a car engine is, despite the fact he has been on space ships numerous times before the start of the game, its just dumb, no matter how its written.

I honestly don't understand where you are getting this idea that I am saying all information should come from just books.

I'm sorry to say, for that, your a moron. Explain to me how the internal combustion engine works without looking it up - cause i sure cant and ive driven many cars (Sheppard has been in many spaceships my ass!) There is no premise moron, exposition through dialogue has been done and will be done well. On that note it is not the easiest thing to do and can often be done badly. Also books, movies and games share a particular storytelling technique known as dialogue..i know i know books suck and all that (buh buh buh books dont count!!) but please dont be a moron, information given through dialogue is the most common distribution of information. Why do you think Bethesda splashed all that bling on voice-acting?
Furthermore get off your high-horse dip-shit i wasnt here before the game came out, i played it thought it was juvenile shit (again i dont like action if you do you may like it - please dont be offended i didn't like your game as if anyone should be fucking offended about what games they like - grow a spine and do what you want with your life). Again if you like this game and this site is predicated towards not (as the official forums im sure are predicated in favour) then go fu**ing there and stop wasting your time with people you have repeatedly claimed to dislike - they dont like your game so what? And third who is the internet? i'd like to know:p

 

[GeorgieBest]

In my humble opinion, I think it would be impossible to create an RPG with the kind of depth and rich, well-thought universe that traditional RPG fans expect without the use of exposition dialogue and a codex of some sort. It worked for Witcher 3, and Pillars, and has nothing to do with being out of date. It keeps pace with modern gaming as Witcher, Pillars, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect have clearly demonstrated. In Mass Effect you can straight up ask people things you would theoretically know as a character in the universe and it doesn't bother anyone that values more content over less content. If that breaks your immersion, I wouldn't even play video games period.

Moving away from this system to Fallout 4's "system," and I use that term as lightly as possible with F4, is simply removing content. If this is the way you really want the game to play out, you really shouldn't be looking to play an RPG. What you really want is a simple FPS. And changing an RPG to be an FPS while claiming it is an RPG is pretty insulting. There is a very clear market for traditional RPGs. I agree that ME and Dragon Age didn't really fit that mold, but compared to what we got with Fallout 4 they are definitely leagues ahead. Imagine removing the codex and exposition dialogue from Mass Effect but leaving the Data Pads and Computer Terminals that exist in the game - it would become as shallow and dull with little actual information that could teach you about the universe. And that is what happened with Fallout.

It's a shallow husk of a game where you can't ask anyone about anything and have to go snooping around in people's diaries for a few sentences of "backstory" that in no way amounts to building a wondrous and massive universe.

Beautifully said:p

 

[Someguy37]

snip

The Elder Scrolls is often said to have some of the most expansive lore of any original series, even by people who don't like the games.

Stuff like The Godhead, Chim, Amaranth, the lucid dreaming unvierse, how the game weaves the gameplay mechanics such as loading saves, pausing time when opening menus, and even the creation kit, fit into its actual lore, how all the gods are dead, and all the things the people call gods are actually them using the magic of thought to puppet their dead bodies, which is why all of these seemingly contradictory versions of the gods exist at the same time. There are massive essays from people who don't even play games delving into all the shit in TES lore, and none if it is told via NPC exposition, its all told in books, notes, even just world art.

The idea that you need things like a codex, or tons of NPC dialogue, to explain all this stuff, is simply false. All you need is to be really dedicated to the things you put into the game world.


Also, I dont believe in removing content. I still want all this information to be in the game, I would just prefer it be in more logical sources then NPCs who have apparently nothing to do but spend hours telling you all the fine points of some thing you should already know.

i know i know books suck and all that

What? I got to here and just stopped because none of that made any sense.

 

[Irwin John Finster]

Asking- learn to read. Also stuffing everything in texts is not the way forward and is a very juvenile proposition to the concept - dialogue IS a legitimate means of providing info (Exposition - oooh!) since we probably learned to talk (ooooh!)
I think what you should be arguing against is bad dialogue (which unfortunately fallout 4 has in spades - truly cringeworthy stuff at points)

I agree dialogue is a legitimate means of providing info, I just think it should be used when it would actually be used, and not in cases were the two people speaking have no reason to be talking about said thing, other then for the player's benefit.

If its some really esoteric concept, most, or all, of the general populace doesn't know about, and wouldn't realistically be in a book, then sure, dialogue the fuck out of it. I wouldn't have expected something like the big "twist" at the end of PoE to be in a book or anything. Thaos splurging that bit makes sense, he's the only one that knows.

But if I am playing New Vegas or something, I dont think asking about the NCR is something that should happen, especially since the player came from the NCR, and should know about it already.

I think I see what you are getting at, but I don't think any video game today or even in a few years could successfully pull this off. It would require a Herculean effort of storytelling to somehow masterfully place all the information you find in Codex and exposition dialogue in such a fashion and I don't really see developers having the resources or the desire to do so. F4 certainly did not do that - it's just not there at all.

 

[Someguy37]

I think I see what you are getting at, but I don't think any video game today or even in a few years could successfully pull this off. It would require a Herculean effort of storytelling to somehow masterfully place all the information you find in Codex and exposition dialogue and I don't really see developers having the resources or the desire to do so. F4 certainly did not do that - it's just not there at all.

I think Elder Scrolls has largely done it, its nowhere near perfect, but not even codex's are perfect.

But they have had 13 years, since they rebooted all the lore in Morrowind, to do it. They have only had like 7 years with Fallout so far.

 

[GeorgieBest]

snip

The Elder Scrolls is often said to have some of the most expansive lore of any original series, even by people who don't like the games.

Stuff like The Godhead, Chim, Amaranth, the lucid dreaming unvierse, how the game weaves the gameplay mechanics such as loading saves, pausing time when opening menus, and even the creation kit, fit into its actual lore, how all the gods are dead, and all the things the people call gods are actually them using the magic of thought to puppet their dead bodies, which is why all of these seemingly contradictory versions of the gods exist at the same time. There are massive essays from people who don't even play games delving into all the shit in TES lore, and none if it is told via NPC exposition, its all told in books, notes, even just world art.

The idea that you need things like a codex, or tons of NPC dialogue, to explain all this stuff, is simply false. All you need is to be really dedicated to the things you put into the game world.


Also, I dont believe in removing content. I still want all this information to be in the game, I would just prefer it be in more logical sources then NPCs who have apparently nothing to do but spend hours telling you all the fine points of some thing you should already know.

i know i know books suck and all that

What? I got to here and just stopped because none of that made any sense.

Stop it now your pathetic. At least try a bit more moron because the it doesnt make sense! argument didnt fly since kindergarden - otherwise i cant even take you seriously. Obviously you havent read books in awhile..oh and are you talking about all that lore that came from Morrowind and their encyclopeadic npcs you hated so much. People please dont listen to this absolute cretin he has no arguments to give only a chip on his shoulder. Good exposition through dialogue is an absolute essential to good storytelling, often one of the hardest elements, and when done well can really immerse you (there is no substitute for it) in a good story especially one with a distinct, intricate world. Environmental storytelling is not enough and never will be enough unless they start fu**ing painting the words on the wall:p

 

[GeorgieBest]

I think I see what you are getting at, but I don't think any video game today or even in a few years could successfully pull this off. It would require a Herculean effort of storytelling to somehow masterfully place all the information you find in Codex and exposition dialogue and I don't really see developers having the resources or the desire to do so. F4 certainly did not do that - it's just not there at all.

I think Elder Scrolls has largely done it, its nowhere near perfect, but not even codex's are perfect.

But they have had 13 years, since they rebooted all the lore in Morrowind, to do it. They have only had like 7 years with Fallout so far.

WAIT are you seriously telling me skyrim had a good storyline - it was substandardly cliche for even videogame standards. It seems story is not in your interests.

 

[Someguy37]

Stop it now your pathetic. At least try a bit more moron because the it doesnt make sense! argument didnt fly since kindergarden - otherwise i cant even take you seriously. Obviously you havent read books in awhile..oh and are you talking about all that lore that came from Morrowind and their encyclopeadic npcs you hated so much. People please dont listen to this absolute cretin he has no arguments to give only a chip on his shoulder. Good exposition through dialogue is an absolute essential to good storytelling, often one of the hardest elements, and when done well can really immerse you (there is no substitute for it) in a good story especially one with a distinct, intricate world. Environmental storytelling is not enough and never will be enough unless they start fu**ing painting the words on the wall:p

I was saying I don't understand because your entire post was just random splashes of the word moron with lots of !!!! and bizarre claims like books don't count for some reason.

In general, your posts are difficult to read. they are very bizarre sentence structure and the like.

WAIT are you seriously telling me skyrim had a good storyline - it was substandardly cliche for even videogame standards. It seems story is not in your interests.

I was talking about the lore, not the main storyline.

Stuff like this
http://i.imgur.com/EouYPlY.png

 

[GeorgieBest]

WAIT are you seriously telling me skyrim had a good storyline - it was substandardly cliche for even videogame standards. It seems story is not in your interests.

I was talking about the lore, not the main storyline.

Stuff like this
http://i.imgur.com/EouYPlY.png

Brother fu** the lore when they can't even write a good storyline. Why would i ever delve into the lore when the actual storyline is so substandard. The reason i believe the lore is good (your claim i havent read a lot of books in skyrim but there were a few i picked up that were embarrasingly short 3-4 pgs and many that were recycled from previous games) and the storyline is shit is that different people wrote it. Also what about when lore breaks immersion, i remembered the vampire book (recycled since oblivion) mentioning the vampires of skyrim living underneath ice lakes with ice breaths or some shit...then i find the same book in skyrim (get the clue--silly me-- that they'd actually do the vampires justice as presented in lore) only to find fu** no same vampires as always! That happens when different writers dont communicate or otherwise dont give a shit.

Also your refusing to answer at least half my posts, i presume that this is how you do shit

 

[Spacemunkey]

Another plot hole is when you're giving the account of the kidnapping to Nick and it gets to Kellogg having a home in diamond city. It's stated that Kellogg was in town with a 10 year old boy and later we see him with a 10 year old Shaun but Nick never mentions that was 50 years earlier and it's never stated whether or not he was in possession of any other kids as far as I know. Given the importance put on Shaun alone I don't see him babysitting random waster kid #7 for the institute.

 

[Someguy37]

That happens when different writers dont communicate or otherwise dont give a shit.

Uhh no, that happens when the books are written from an in-universe perspective, by people full of bias, and reasons to lie. You're not supposed to take anything said in any one book as fact, because it rarely is. Just like real life were history is written by the victors... who love to lie and shit all over their fallen enemies.

I do recall an interview were, I think it was Ken Rolston, talked about how one of the writers, think it was Kurt Kuhlmann, would write like 4 different versions of the same story, all of which conflicted, and then would put all of them in the game. When asked which of the stories was the true one, Kurt responded none of them were, nor did it really matter. The point was to show that everyone has their own ideas of what happened, even in major historical events. The truth is often lost to time and lies, and can never be uncovered later.

Or as Gary Noonan put it
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archive-gt-noonan
On the 1st PGE and its contradictions with modern (Morrowind era) lore (04/22/01)

Remember! The PGE was written in a "tourists" view. Much like reading a diary. You cannot expect the "fictional" author of the writing to be right about everything. By putting something in concrete, you limit yourself downplay suspense and originality for further developments and such. Not everything we say is always true. Sometimes, even we developers speak out of personal beliefs and idealisms about certain aspects of TES. And it is NOT always correct.... many times, it is INcorrect purposely.

Not to be cruel, but its keeps everything very dynamic and ever evolving. Just because we tell you a red stick is white, it doesnt mean it isnt really green.
​

Another plot hole is when you're giving the account of the kidnapping to Nick and it gets to Kellogg having a home in diamond city. It's stated that Kellogg was in town with a 10 year old boy and later we see him with a 10 year old Shaun but Nick never mentions that was 50 years earlier and it's never stated whether or not he was in possession of any other kids as far as I know. Given the importance put on Shaun alone I don't see him babysitting random waster kid #7 for the institute.

That was synth Shaun, not the real Shaun. If you pay attention to the radio, you can hear Travis talking about Piper's article about the mayor being a synth, the one that got her kicked out of Diamond City as we see when we first reach it.

Kellogg was in Diamond City with synth shaun to lure you there, but Virgil's escape changed the plan.
​

 

[GeorgieBest]

That happens when different writers dont communicate or otherwise dont give a shit.

Uhh no, that happens when the books are written from an in-universe perspective, by people full of bias, and reasons to lie. You're not supposed to take anything said in any one book as fact, because it rarely is. Just like real life were history is written by the victors... who love to lie and shit all over their fallen enemies.

I do recall an interview were, I think it was Ken Rolston, talked about how one of the writers, think it was Kurt Kuhlmann, would write like 4 different versions of the same story, all of which conflicted, and then would put all of them in the game. When asked which of the stories was the true one, Kurt responded none of them were, nor did it really matter. The point was to show that everyone has their own ideas of what happened, even in major historical events. The truth is often lost to time and lies, and can never be uncovered later.

Or as Gary Noonan put it
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archive-gt-noonan
On the 1st PGE and its contradictions with modern (Morrowind era) lore (04/22/01)

Remember! The PGE was written in a "tourists" view. Much like reading a diary. You cannot expect the "fictional" author of the writing to be right about everything. By putting something in concrete, you limit yourself downplay suspense and originality for further developments and such. Not everything we say is always true. Sometimes, even we developers speak out of personal beliefs and idealisms about certain aspects of TES. And it is NOT always correct.... many times, it is INcorrect purposely.

Not to be cruel, but its keeps everything very dynamic and ever evolving. Just because we tell you a red stick is white, it doesnt mean it isnt really green.

​

Omg did he really say that! That none of them even matter! GOD! maybe that's why the stories suck, he doesn't even have an idea about what actually happened - do you actually think that this videogame- writer guy can pull of something so deep as the truth doesn't even matter! Oh please! Also explain to me how you enjoy (lets leave the storytelling genius that is to lie about everything - seriously think about it for a minute and try not burn your brain with the implications - which are - we'll lie about everything- we'll get away with anything- lulz!!) Or is it about the pontification of the ephemeral nature of the truth (just stating that or lying about everything doesnt earn you cookies dip-shit you gotta actually weave the theme in the narrative and ding-ding actually make a point with it!) how oh how you enjoy reading about VAMPIRES ASSAULTING FROM UNDERNEATH THE ICE-LAKES only to find FUCKING OBLIVION VAMPIRES IN CAVES - ARE U RETARDED??? seriously :p

 

[Spacemunkey]

So the kid was just a maguffin, maybe I should listen to the radio if it's giving out plot sensitive information as well.

 

[Someguy37]

snip

I am going to try to decipher what you said as best I can.

-Yes, he did say that.

-The point was that it really didn't matter. As I recall, the story in question dealt with the battle of Red Mountain, which resulted in the disappearance of the Dwemer. There are like 5-6 different accounts of what happened in just Morrowind alone, all of them conflicting in some way. All that really mattered was that the Dwemer vanished, and that it further cemented the animosity between the Nords and Dunmer, each of whom claimed the other was working for some goal or side they may or may not have.

-There was a point made with all of it actually. In that lots of stories about our past have shaped how we view certain groups and peoples, many of which are likely complete bullshit created through generations of spite, bias, and historical revisionism, stemming from ancient, petty, conflicts, between groups and powers that no longer exist, and should no longer matter, yet still do due to our retarded clinging on to these ancient tales. The racism between the Nords and Dunmer stems from centuries of propping up their own version of shit, which likely didn't happened as anyone descrbied, and was made to directly parallel real world instances of the same, mostly regarding religious groups, since the battle of Red Mountain was ultimately a religious holy war.

-I don't recall vampires in cyrodiil being able to turn into vampire lords, turn into bats for transportation, summon gargoyles, or anything like that.

So the kid was just a maguffin, maybe I should listen to the radio if it's giving out plot sensitive information as well.

Basically. They were trying to make it seem like Shaun was still a kid to hide the ultimate reveal of him actually being a 60 year old man dying of cancer.

 

[GeorgieBest]

snip

I am going to try to decipher what you said as best I can.

-Yes, he did say that.

-The point was that it really didn't matter. As I recall, the story in question dealt with the battle of Red Mountain, which resulted in the disappearance of the Dwemer. There are like 5-6 different accounts of what happened in just Morrowind alone, all of them conflicting in some way. All that really mattered was that the Dwemer vanished, and that it further cemented the animosity between the Nords and Dunmer, each of whom claimed the other was working for some goal or side they may or may not have.

-There was a point made with all of it actually. In that lots of stories about our past have shaped how we view certain groups and peoples, many of which are likely complete bullshit created through generations of spite, bias, and historical revisionism, stemming from ancient, and petty, conflicts between groups and powers that no longer exist, and should no longer matter, yet still do due to our retarded clinging on to these ancient tales. The racism between the Nords and Dunmer stems from centuries of propping up their own version of shit, neither of which likely happened, and was made to directly parallel real world instances of the same, mostly regarding religious institutions.

-I don't recall vampires in cyrodiil being able to turn into vampire lords, turn into bats for transportation, summon gargoyles, or anything like that.

Forget it your just an absolute moron. Are we discussing morrowind, skyrim, or oblivion cause i didnt fucking mention morrowind you just gave me the holy quote and i commented didnt know context. Well it probably worked in Morrowind because Morrowind was actually a good game. They cant keep reusing the same idea forever. Also wtf thats dlc i didnt play it..my vampires were oblivion vampires living in caves:p

Also weren't you dissing Morrowind a few pages ago?? Also please leave the patronizing shit to me (you actually deserve it:p)
Also wat the fuck do the specificities of the Duemer disappearance have to do with my argument for dialogue- are we just arguing cause this is something you do:p Do they lie about everything or just Dwemer? Are all sticks green or white? Are they nuts in there?

 

[DirtyOldShoe]

It's called a Deus Ex Machina my friend, and only skilled writers should only ever attempt to use it because there is serious risk of it coming off as cheesy and/or lore breaking. But Bethesda and Emil probably don't even know that it's called a Deus Ex Machina. I'm telling you.... watching Bethesda trying to write a coherent story is like watching children with rocket launchers. They have no clue what they're doing, but you can bet that at some point something big and dramatic is going to happen, and most likely it's going to result in a giant mess.

First post, I have lurked here for a while and I have made a choice to no longer be silent. I would like to expand upon this comment. Who is responsible for such garbage? Emil, Todd, the "100+" game testers that didn't ask common sense questions? Emil's writing in essence is not writing. He is just "upgrading" his original idea with FO3. They have an engine that will allow then to craft seemingly limitless possibilities, yet elected to take the core plot and plot hooks from 3 (As a "Prime" example). During the making of Skyrim, some of the Bethesda team complained that it was a struggle to come up with quest ideas and creatures because the concept of Nirn is so alien. Yet with real world references they can't muster up a few more quests that are even slightly interesting. Fallout should be the easier of the two franchises to write for, something as simple as protect the none radiant Brahmin from a non radiant farmer that has a GD name from non radiant wolves. This story was already told and was much more enjoyable then finding family member and an exact copy paste from 3. Emil has indicated that he can not write, but as he is an exec, he is flagged "essential" if you catch my meaning. Emil's writing is trash, but Todd continues to produce this railroading garbage. In an interview or on a post somewhere Bethesda notes that their 100+ testers can't test everything. Fair enough. But that does not excuse all 100+ not asking common sense questions.

1.) What if some players don't like power armor?
2.) what if player's don't want to arbitrarily start a quest by entering a cell or telepathically?
3.) What if some players don't want to craft? (try to not mod any food, armor, weapons, chemistry, settlement items)
4.) No one noticed that no and sarcastic means yes?
5.) What credentials do these testers have and who are they?
6.) Did they actually complain? Where they given objectives to follow and report on?
7.) how is this game balanced in any way? those settlers don't stand a chance. One house is surrounded by the worst of every hostile enemy type. How did they "survive" so long without being slaughtered?
8.) Why are mutants hungry? Why do they eat human?
9.) Raiders are people, Feral ghouls were once standard ghouls who were at some point human people. Super mutants where human, CoA and BoS. If these groups are all populated by the general population, wouldn't the general population be at least the same size as all these groups combined? There is a staggering amount of Super mutants. I know the lore for them that this title has arbitrarily created, but it doesn't justify the quantity, especially with 1/4 of them being suicides. No one complains that another 50 people joined BoS today and that next week there will be 400 Super mutants downtown. I could go on, but I should probably do something else.

Who are these play testers? Did they play any Fallout game? I don't just mean 1 or 2, any?
If you skip the first location which isn't really a spoiler as it is in the trailer, and you do not start dialogue in Concord, your voiced PC will verbosely explain events that never took place with other NPC's ripping you out of any possible immersion and play style. wtf.

I believe that giving a hobo 2 weeks to learn about Fallout, that Hobo would be able to have a varied amount of quest ideas, that would be more interesting and probably not lore shattering. FO4 is a product placement ad campaign for itself.

 

[GeorgieBest]

snip

I am going to try to decipher what you said as best I can.

-Yes, he did say that.

-The point was that it really didn't matter. As I recall, the story in question dealt with the battle of Red Mountain, which resulted in the disappearance of the Dwemer. There are like 5-6 different accounts of what happened in just Morrowind alone, all of them conflicting in some way. All that really mattered was that the Dwemer vanished, and that it further cemented the animosity between the Nords and Dunmer, each of whom claimed the other was working for some goal or side they may or may not have.

-There was a point made with all of it actually. In that lots of stories about our past have shaped how we view certain groups and peoples, many of which are likely complete bullshit created through generations of spite, bias, and historical revisionism, stemming from ancient, petty, conflicts, between groups and powers that no longer exist, and should no longer matter, yet still do due to our retarded clinging on to these ancient tales. The racism between the Nords and Dunmer stems from centuries of propping up their own version of shit, which likely didn't happened as anyone descrbied, and was made to directly parallel real world instances of the same, mostly regarding religious groups, since the battle of Red Mountain was ultimately a religious holy war.

-I don't recall vampires in cyrodiil being able to turn into vampire lords, turn into bats for transportation, summon gargoyles, or anything like that.

So the kid was just a maguffin, maybe I should listen to the radio if it's giving out plot sensitive information as well.

Basically. They were trying to make it seem like Shaun was still a kid to hide the ultimate reveal of him actually being a 60 year old man dying of cancer.

I know your used to Bethesda's dialogue but come on you can try harder:p