Police Officer forces a woman to give him a handjob.

[Sander]

They are *quite* vocal, and at times they choose methods that are less sophisticated then vocalism to display their opinion. Mostly the younger generations however.

Case in point:
Click me.
Skip to 0:50.

This happened during the recording of a political party's advertising film.
In the film they wanted to record ambulance personal being attacked by Moroccan youth, a direct link to these kind of attacks that've been in the news quite often lately. Ironically, they themselves where attacked by Moroccan youth during the video-shoot.

If you've followed the news lately, you must've seen this Sander.

But perhaps I wasn't as accurate as I should've been, let me rephrase:
We have a very vocal pro-muslim group.

Isolated incidents isn't the same as having a very vocal muslim group. There's no Islamic political party, there's no group of muslims vocally defending the muslim faith. By and large, muslims try to keep their faith private and don't talk about it much. It's people like Wilders who try to make it a public thing.

Also, that clip has shit all to do with muslims. That's something that Wilders and Verdonk have done very effectively: they've managed to create a link between Islam and young, immigrant assholes in the minds of many when there is no real link.

 

[Grin]

They are *quite* vocal, and at times they choose methods that are less sophisticated then vocalism to display their opinion. Mostly the younger generations however.

Case in point:
Click me.
Skip to 0:50.

This happened during the recording of a political party's advertising film.
In the film they wanted to record ambulance personal being attacked by Moroccan youth, a direct link to these kind of attacks that've been in the news quite often lately. Ironically, they themselves where attacked by Moroccan youth during the video-shoot.

If you've followed the news lately, you must've seen this Sander.

But perhaps I wasn't as accurate as I should've been, let me rephrase:
We have a very vocal pro-muslim group.

Isolated incidents isn't the same as having a very vocal muslim group. There's no Islamic political party, there's no group of muslims vocally defending the muslim faith.

http://www.nederlandsemoslimpartij.nl/
http://www.islam-democraten.nl/nu/

Ahem. Should I continue? And these are just the national ones, there are many many many regional ones as well.

Do your research Sander.

Also, that clip has shit all to do with muslims. That's something that Wilders and Verdonk have done very effectively: they've managed to create a link between Islam and young, immigrant assholes in the minds of many when there is no real link.

Oh, but the link is there. These immigrant 'assholes' as you call them take up any opportunity to protect their religion or people. I admit, they aren't poster-boys for the Islam, but the link is there and both Wilders and Verdonk make very effective use of it.

 

[Sander]

Isolated incidents isn't the same as having a very vocal muslim group. There's no Islamic political party, there's no group of muslims vocally defending the muslim faith.

http://www.nederlandsemoslimpartij.nl/
http://www.islam-democraten.nl/nu/

Ahem. Should I continue? And these are just the national ones, there are many many many regional ones as well.

Do your research Sander.[/quote]
Those political parties are minor and not even projected to get a single seat in the elections from what I know. That's not a vocal minority. To claim that that's a vocal minority is worse than claiming that the SGP is a very vocal minority.

Oh, but the link is there. These immigrant 'assholes' as you call them take up any opportunity to protect their religion or people. I admit, they aren't poster-boys for the Islam, but the link is there and both Wilders and Verdonk make very effective use of it.

These kids aren't assholes because they're muslim. They're assholes because they're assholes.

 

[Dragula]

Let's talk about the issue at hand. (HAHAHAHAHA)

Handjobs are not as awesome as blowjobs, what were the cop thinking?

 

[Fermi Paradox]

These kids aren't assholes because they're muslim. They're assholes because they're assholes.

Thank you!

 

[Grin]

Isolated incidents isn't the same as having a very vocal muslim group. There's no Islamic political party, there's no group of muslims vocally defending the muslim faith.

http://www.nederlandsemoslimpartij.nl/
http://www.islam-democraten.nl/nu/

Ahem. Should I continue? And these are just the national ones, there are many many many regional ones as well.

Do your research Sander.

Those political parties are minor and not even projected to get a single seat in the elections from what I know. That's not a vocal minority. To claim that that's a vocal minority is worse than claiming that the SGP is a very vocal minority.

What would you consider a vocal minority? From 16.700.000 people there's about 600.000 Muslims in The Netherlands.

Even if these 600.000 would all vote for a single party they wouldn't be able to have much of an impact. Does that mean that they aren't a vocal minority?


With numerous political party's, political demonstrations and extended media coverage, I consider it a vocal minority.

Oh, but the link is there. These immigrant 'assholes' as you call them take up any opportunity to protect their religion or people. I admit, they aren't poster-boys for the Islam, but the link is there and both Wilders and Verdonk make very effective use of it.

These kids aren't assholes because they're muslim. They're assholes because they're assholes.

Where did I state that they were assholes because they're Muslim?

I get a feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, Sander.

 

[Sander]

What would you consider a vocal minority? From 16.700.000 people there's about 600.000 Muslims in The Netherlands.

Even if these 600.000 would all vote for a single party they wouldn't be able to have much of an impact. Does that mean that they aren't a vocal minority?


With numerous political party's, political demonstrations and extended media coverage, I consider it a vocal minority.

I wouldn't. Almost all of the muslim-related media coverage is actually coverage of Wilders or Verdonk whining about them, not muslims themselves.

Where did I state that they were assholes because they're Muslim?

If their being muslim isn't relevant to them being assholes, then why are you agreeing with Verdonk and Wilders that their being muslim is relevant?

 

[maximaz]

The difference is that the law in the US is not (supposed to be) based on any religion but as I said, there are politicians in the states who use the Bible to defend depriving gays of their rights. Even there at least the US doesn't fine, throw people in prison, or even kill (death penalty) people for being gay. That said, I never said I was talking about the religion but the countries whose governments are based around said religion. It's worse when they justify it by stating that their profit married his wife when she was 12, because there clearly hasn't been any changes in the 1300+ years since Muhammad lived. I'm not trying to blame Islam for it as it's all cultural but ignoring the significance of the role which Islam plays would be intellectually dishonest. An imperfect analogy would be talking about law in the Vatican and ignoring Catholicism.

Are you seriously comparing muslim countries to vatican? Vatican to Catholicism is what Mecca is to Islam. Not a single other place on earth has the same connection or relationship with Islam as Mecca. Muslim countries, just like any other countries, have various degrees of "hardcore". You better not be applying for a gay pride parade permit in Mecca while there are large gay communities in Turkey. If someone made a woman give him a handjob and was found not guilty in EITHER place, Islam would be the main point of discussion, even though those involved could be non muslims.

Bangladesh is one of the poorest countries on Earth and it's still a democracy, where women occupy 19% of parliament (2% more than in US). Indonesia is another big muslim country that's a democracy, despite some hardcore traditions. Russia is not a muslim country but a gay parade got banned there recently and a bunch of fanny bandits were jailed. The people should be blamed, not the excuse they find for their behavior.

Then there is meee. I'm definitely a sinner but I'm into Islam 100%. It makes complete sense to me, I believe in it fully and try to follow it as best as I can. Yet, whatever examples you brought up are as crazy to me as they are to you. How do you explain that?

 

[Grin]

What would you consider a vocal minority? From 16.700.000 people there's about 600.000 Muslims in The Netherlands.

Even if these 600.000 would all vote for a single party they wouldn't be able to have much of an impact. Does that mean that they aren't a vocal minority?


With numerous political party's, political demonstrations and extended media coverage, I consider it a vocal minority.

I wouldn't.

Good for you, let's leave it at that.

Where did I state that they were assholes because they're Muslim?

If their being muslim isn't relevant to them being assholes, then why are you agreeing with Verdonk and Wilders that their being muslim is relevant?

First of all, I never said they were immigrant assholes, you did. I also never said I agreed with Verdonk or Wilders that their being Muslim is relevant to anything.

What I did say is that there is a link between these Moroccan youth and Islam. A link you denied.

 

[Sander]

First of all, I never said they were immigrant assholes, you did. I also never said I agreed with Verdonk or Wilders that their being Muslim is relevant to anything.

What I did say is that there is a link between these Moroccan youth and Islam. A link you denied.

What I was talking about was the success Wilders and Verdonk had in linking Islam to young asshole immigrants. Wilders and Verdonk create a narrative that blames a lot of the problems related to immigration and mostly a lot of the problems related to young assholes on Islam. They reduce a complicated issue to a single cause.

 

[el_jefe_of_ny]

I come to this thread expecting to see some chick getting beat off on and then I see a Muslim faith debate.

how deflating

 

[UncannyGarlic]

Are you seriously comparing muslim countries to vatican? Vatican to Catholicism is what Mecca is to Islam. Not a single other place on earth has the same connection or relationship with Islam as Mecca.

I'm comparing the basis of Vatican law to the basis of law in Muslim countries because yes, they are extremely similar. They differ in the religions the laws are based on and the cultures from which they primarily draw from (Vatican draws more heavily from Roman culture than from any middle eastern culture).

You better not be applying for a gay pride parade permit in Mecca while there are large gay communities in Turkey.

Turkey claims to be secular and are clearly less fundamentalist than Islamic nations who do not.

Bangladesh is one of the poorest countries on Earth and it's still a democracy, where women occupy 19% of parliament (2% more than in US). Indonesia is another big muslim country that's a democracy, despite some hardcore traditions. Russia is not a muslim country but a gay parade got banned there recently and a bunch of fanny bandits were jailed. The people should be blamed, not the excuse they find for their behavior.

When did I ever say that homosexuality wasn't illegal or stigmatized in non-Islamic countries? I merely said that it's more prevalent with harsher punishments in Islamic nations. You talking about this?

 

[Fermi Paradox]

This thread is depressing. Can't we all just get along???

 

[maximaz]

I'm comparing the basis of Vatican law to the basis of law in Muslim countries because yes, they are extremely similar. They differ in the religions the laws are based on and the cultures from which they primarily draw from (Vatican draws more heavily from Roman culture than from any middle eastern culture).

Then you're saying that they are similar in the extent of separation between religion and government? Vatican is governed by the Pope and his appointed commission. They also govern the whole catholic Church. There is absolutely no separation there. Islam, on the other hand, does not have a central Church that is sovereign over the religion and its laws. The laws in muslim countries are created by their governments who may or may not be religious. In a democractic muslim country the basis of law is completely different from that of Vatican. Islam certainly affects the law to various degree but almost never to the same degree as Vatican law.

A more appropriate analogy would be to pick an average European country and discuss the connection of events there and dominant local religion.

Turkey claims to be secular and are clearly less fundamentalist than Islamic nations who do not.

It's a muslim country that strives for democracy, yet injustice toward women would still bring up talks about Islam. That was my point.

Bangladesh is one of the poorest countries on Earth and it's still a democracy, where women occupy 19% of parliament (2% more than in US). Indonesia is another big muslim country that's a democracy, despite some hardcore traditions. Russia is not a muslim country but a gay parade got banned there recently and a bunch of fanny bandits were jailed. The people should be blamed, not the excuse they find for their behavior.

Homosexuality was used to make a point there. The point being that different muslim countries have different laws and attitudes toward things, even though they are muslim.

 

[Crni Vuk]

how many democratic (REAL democracy, not something like in Russia or Kongo you know) muslims nations are there which also seperate clearly religion from state ? Just curious. I really have no clue

 

[victor]

I think Turkey has been pretty strict about not mixing Islam with politics, but I'm not sure how it is now.

 

[maximaz]

how many democratic (REAL democracy, not something like in Russia or Kongo you know) muslims nations are there which also seperate clearly religion from state ? Just curious. I really have no clue

Turkey to a decent extent, Bangladesh, Malasyia, some more probably. Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world and it has a pretty decent democracy. There are plenty of other problems due to poverty but there are both pro and anti religious political parties (not just Muslim) and the government is neutral. Very few countries, if any, have a complete separation between religion and politics, which includes the US.

 

[Crni Vuk]

turkey is mentioned many times. But if you ask me they are pretty undemocratic for a "democratic" nation. But well. Thats just my personal oppinion.

I am sure there are islamic nations with a democratic system. But I sadly cant really coment on it as I am not used with them in any way. To many today call them self "democratic" cause it sounds nice on the map and infrot of the united nations.

But just about Malaysia, it seems more to be a Elective monarchy. Quite a lot muslim states seem to have a similar system or still have monarchs, like Arabia I think. Not that this is a bad thing. Its part of their culture in many ways.

But I have somewhat to agree with Garlic when he mentions certain issues beeing more prevalent in islamic nations. Like the poltics regarding homosexuality and sexuality in general. Or the role of females in society. Of course its a deep problem and quite complex. And the parts of the world where its so bad that cheating females get killed are by far no standart. Western civilisations wich see them self as democracy have own issues to overcome. Even here in Europe where we seem to be quite liberal most of the time. So I guess most islamic nations are neither really better or worse compared to others. They are a different culture.

 

[remake]

turkey is mentioned many times. But if you ask me they are pretty undemocratic for a "democratic" nation. But well. Thats just my personal oppinion.

I should think so. However when you think about it we're doing just fine for a nation which has gazillions of minorities and which went through two military coups in the past 50 years.

So I guess most islamic nations are neither really better or worse compared to others. They are a different culture.

I guess this is the most sensible statement so far in this thread. Sometimes judging cultures from a western perspective can prove to be unfruitful.

[/quote]

 

[Crni Vuk]

yes, different experience leads to different evolutions and look.

I personaly have grown up with lots of influence from a liberal and deomcratic nation. If you want so. But I also have my experience from former Yugoslavia and the people there. And even today I hve no clue how "much" of democracy is working actualy there ... but well. Thats another story. I personaly prefer the way how things work over here in Germany cause thats the system I like most not perfect for sure, but it works. Though that doesnt mean that the politics and system here are meant to work in either Afghanistan, Iraq, Arabia or any other nation. One has to keep their history and culture in mind. And not forget that for the last 100 years (if not even much longer) many european Nations have been knee deep in their "politics" bee it the many wars in Tunesia/Arabia etc. and whole part of Africa and midle east with berber people or other conflicts between the Germans and Brits or French for example over the former Osmanian territory. Many of the problems today still only exist caue of past actions by european colonialism. Without the intention to exagerate it as some time has passed and now many of them are responsible for their own course. But it sure has lead to many if you want artifical effects that changed those nations in one way or another.

For many islamic nations the monarchy and similar systems have worked over the centuries. ANd one should not forget that for some time a few of them have been quite modern. Afghanistan wasnt always looking like it does today just take a look on it from the 60s. Many states in the midle east like Iran and Iraq tried in the 40s and 50s to get closer to standarts from the west before political influences took over and a lot of things went wrong. Things change over time and nothing is always "only" radical or "only" liberal if you know what I mean.

Maybe more states will go for democracy. Maybe not. People have to decide that. You cant "force" democracy on a nation.

turkey is mentioned many times. But if you ask me they are pretty undemocratic for a "democratic" nation. But well. Thats just my personal oppinion.

I should think so. However when you think about it we're doing just fine for a nation which has gazillions of minorities and which went through two military coups in the past 50 years.

Hey, I like turkey. Dont get me wrong. I also think there have been a lot of good things Ata Tuerk did. But I also think that Trurkey needs eventualy a new agenda or change just as it did in the past after the Osman empire crumbled and gave Turkey and Kemal a chance to reform. I mean you know the thing about the kurds is some old story. But its eventualy time for Turkey to reflect their past and work on that. For the sake of both (or all) sides if you want. I see with that a lot of issues in Yugoslavia. There is just not enough work regarding the past. Moving closer together as neughbours should be the target on the Balkan and trying to "forgive" (not forget!). Regardless what happend in the past. Part of that is of course to investigate and acept your own crimes. Cause if you dont. How can you expect that from others ?