POLL: Trump or Hillary

TRUMP OR HILLARY FOR US PRESIDENT 2016?

  • Donald Trump

    Votes: 30 34.5%

  • Hillary Clinton

    Votes: 10 11.5%

  • Just shoot me already

    Votes: 47 54.0%
  • Total voters
    87
  • Poll closed .
Kremin said:
Isn't Socialism literally one of the first steps towards Communism though?
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Absolutely, both Sweden and Germany are a workers paradise, where the proletariat is dictating the course of the nation to a glorious red future!

Antiwarprofallout said:
Socialism is 'practical'?
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Germany, as a state, has adobted socialist ideas since the late 19th century. And there are many more european nations which follow some ideas.
You know, even the US, actually has some of it. Like pensions and wellware, among a few more I guess.

Obviously the problem is, that Americans would rather want their nation to colapse then even push it in a more socialist direction. I mean god forbid! The nation could improve for the average citizen.
 
Well after the Congress and the lobbyists have been finished with it you could say that it did some damage, I would not blame all of it on Obama, you know. But you have to look it from a different angle. It is a start. A rough start maybe, I don't know enough about Obamacare to judge how good or bad it really is. But it means that it can and should be improved. The fact that a President got it trough, is already almost a miracle. Again, there are at least a handfull of states where it works pretty well, where the people have access to affordable treatment without the need to start fundraisers or huge debts. Is Obamacare, in particular, good or bad? I guess that depends on who you ask.

Though, a slightly different question. As far as I get it - I could be wrong - but most people here see the need for firebrigades, the police and schools. Why is Health Care such a 'special' case? I mean we're not really having the same kind of discussion about police departments or firefighters here, or highways for that matter, and why they should be run by 'private' companies?
 
Antiwarprofallout said:
View attachment 6371

Note, 1965 had the government passing Medicare.

This explains it pretty in-depth: http://tinyurl.com/n4y3mdk
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Correlation doesn't equal causation. Just taking one quick look at that graph, the prices didn't start to skyrocket until 1980 (a full 15 years after Medicare) and they were already shooting up considerably way before Obamacare.

Plus, many of the price-inflating methods discussed in the linked article 1) don't have much to do with either Acts, and 2) would still be very doable without state intervention; it's not like the State has a monopoly on, well, monopolies.

And, the website has a clear libertarian outlook. Which is fine and doesn't demolish their arguments, but should not be forgotten.

I mean, it's good food for thought, but hardly conslusive proof in my eyes.
 
Aren't you kinda afraid or your own name? Kremin, that sounds almost like Kremlin. Someone could think that you're a communist.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Germany, as a state, has adobted socialist ideas since the late 19th century
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Well, it did collapse twice in 50 years. And the third of it which was run even more socialist, well, that was essentially a craphole by the time it joined up with the other half.

Ilosar said:
Just taking one quick look at that graph, the prices didn't start to skyrocket until 1980 (a full 15 years after Medicare) and they were already shooting up considerably way before Obamacare.
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They clearly rose much more quickly under Medicare; not saying it's a 100% cause, but it defintely has some input on raising prices.

Crni Vuk said:
I mean we're not really having the same kind of discussion about police departments or firefighters here, or highways for that matter, and why they should be run by 'private' companies?
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Well, I could argue for privatized everything, or we could not send this thread careening off another cliff.

Ilosar said:
it's not like the State has a monopoly on, well, monopolies.
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Typically, the state has a monopoly on violently enforcing monopolies.

Vergil said:
It's leftists who are afraid of the Kremlin now.
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You're sounding like a Russian spy
 
I came back here to catch up on the discussion and maybe even contribute to it but it turns out it's mostly just 6 pages of shitty, disingenuous, straw-man nonsense.

It's pathetic that the only way some of you are willing to engage with the other side is by first convincing yourself that they must be stupid and/or *gasp* horrible people.

Personally, I take it as a compliment because it really is the best you can do.
 
Antiwarprofallout said:
They clearly rose much more quickly under Medicare; not saying it's a 100% cause, but it defintely has some input on raising prices.

Typically, the state has a monopoly on violently enforcing monopolies.
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Yeah, but again, it's hard to say exactly how much this is Medicare, and how much is the population growing older and requiring more care, or our general awareness of some diseases and ailments increasing, or prices going up because of doctor's shenanigans as are detailed in the article, or high-techonology treatments/equipment rising above standard inflation, or all manners of other variables that affect a system as complex as US health care.

You could argue Medicare failed to help lower the prices, and have a pretty much ironclad argument. But I'm not seeing a strong causation here, not from one graph. It's very possible it led to increased prices, but we also need to consider the flipside- how did it also make it affordable thans to help from the state. In terms of health care, I'd say making it as accessible as possible is the most important factor, even more than the baseline price if parts of said price are shouldered by the state.

But the healthcare reforms weren't forcibly enforced, rather implemented by democratically elected officials. So not much different from a theoretical big company abusing its powers; and unlike governments, it doesn't answer to its citizens but its bottom line.
 
Crossfire said:
I came back here to catch up on the discussion and maybe even contribute to it but it turns out it's mostly just 6 pages of shitty, disingenuous, straw-man nonsense.

It's pathetic that the only way some of you are willing to engage with the other side is by first convincing yourself that they must be stupid and/or *gasp* horrible people.

Personally, I take it as a compliment because it really is the best you can do.
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Nearly all of the last few pages have been filled with shit-talking. It's like current American politics, but with no restraint.
 
Ilosar said:
In terms of health care, I'd say making it as accessible as possible is the most important factor
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If the baseline price is increased to a ridiculous point the taxpayer has to fork over an incredible amount for a service when they could pay a much smaller price. This applies to the majority of folk, and the ones that still wouldn't be able to afford it would be able to rely on charities, family and friends.

Ilosar said:
But the healthcare reforms weren't forcibly enforced, rather implemented by democratically elected officials
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They were forcibly enforced, the government used threat of inprisonment to get cooperation.
 
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