*Real* Christians

[John Uskglass]

Nope. He is trying just as hard to convince us that these people are idiots, and by extention I am an idiot for being Christain. If he where to bring that up on another topic without it being insulting, maybe.

 

[Brother None]

Nope. He is trying just as hard to convince us that these people are idiots, and by extention I am an idiot for being Christain. If he where to bring that up on another topic without it being insulting, maybe.

Why?

You expect other people to dignify "pagans are responsible for terrible things" or "the muslim faith is inherently more violent than the Christian faith" with a reply, and that's as least as insulting.

Why not extend the same courtesy to him? Is it just because he's trying to get you locked in wordgames, to contradict yourself? If he manages to do so, wouldn't that prove that you need to think about your own views on life?

Ponder.

Discuss.

 

[Ozrat]

He shoots....


HE SCORES!

Edit:

He is trying just as hard to convince us that these people are idiots, and by extention I am an idiot for being Christain

Nope. I'm saying that these people have a religion that is more logical than yours. Its more practical for them, they pracitice it to a point where they literally are puting their lives on the line not only to prove their faith, but to reinforce it even more strongly for themselves.

You, on the other hand, just go to a building once a week just to listen to some dude preach about homos and the dangers of sex before getting married.

 

[John Uskglass]

You, on the other hand, just go to a building once a week just to listen to some dude preach about homos and the dangers of sex before getting married.

:
Who says I go to Church? I'd convert to Orthodoxy, but that would make me look like a new waver, only replace converting to Buddhism/Khabbalism with Orthodoxy. And my parents are filthy rich, so I plan to just not go to Church till I am out of the house.

I read constantly on the subjects of the great Christain philosophers. I firmly belive that Christanity and Christian morals are essential to Western Christanity, and the entire world.

These guys play around with snakes and have two way conversations with God;something that is impossible lest God make an exception to his general Will. Frankly, these guys are something closer to crazy then faithful.

Nope. I'm saying that these people have a religion that is more logical than yours. Its more practical for them, they pracitice it to a point where they literally are puting their lives on the line not only to prove their faith, but to reinforce it even more strongly for themselves.

Well, I might disagree with them ,but that does not make them any less Christian. I could be wrong on the subject of the correct church.

But calling it more logical is just plain silly. These people claim to have personal relations with God the same way my sister claims to have personal relationships with Orlando Bloom. They both think they are somehow special, that God, an unkowable, allpowerful being, feels the need to talk with them. I don't think that. I know my own importance.

 

[Flake]

Who says I go to Church? I'd convert to Orthodoxy, but that would make me look like a new waver, only replace converting to Buddhism/Khabbalism with Orthodoxy. And my parents are filthy rich, so I plan to just not go to Church till I am out of the house.
.

What do your parents have to do with your religious practises? You seem to be quite content on displaying your view here at every chance you get, so money makes them different?

--------------
Very diplomatic response CCR, over to you Ozrat.[/quote]

 

[Big T]

Frankly, these guys are something closer to crazy then faithful.

I'm not sure it's up to you to decide the difference. So what if they feel their faith so stronlgy? They are not hurting anyone.

Very diplomatic response CCR, over to you Ozrat.

I agree and I commend CCR on his diplomacy, especially in the face of blatant trolling. It's nice to see.

 

[Dove]

@CCr Wait a minute...

You still live with your parents, and their filthy rich?

You are so going to be eaten alive in the "real" world...

 

[John Uskglass]

@CCr Wait a minute...

You still live with your parents, and their filthy rich?

You are so going to be eaten alive in the "real" world...

I am 16. And yeah, I will be, but we have Universities where I can immerse myself in everything outside of the real world 24/7, so it is not much of an option.

Thanks for noticing my effort to not troll.

 

[Ozrat]

Ahhh, finally what I wanted; a real attempt to converse with the topic here instead of sidetracking by pretending to be interested in somebody else's familial history. Since you're now willing to discuss this at least semi-seriously, I'll be a little less provacative and discuss this as I would with any other person.

Who says I go to Church? I'd convert to Orthodoxy, but that would make me look like a new waver, only replace converting to Buddhism/Khabbalism with Orthodoxy. And my parents are filthy rich, so I plan to just not go to Church till I am out of the house.

I see... So you base your religious views on what other people will think of you and not what you truely believe is right... Apparently your parent's supposed wealth is enough to compensate you for this... Interesting...

I read constantly on the subjects of the great Christain philosophers. I firmly belive that Christanity and Christian morals are essential to Western Christanity,

How exactly does this relate to what we've been talking about?

and the entire world.

Care to elaborate? Besides the way that "Christian" Missionaries have invaded just about every country there is out there?

These guys play around with snakes and have two way conversations with God;something that is impossible lest God make an exception to his general Will. Frankly, these guys are something closer to crazy then faithful.

Impossible? According to what? Crazy? Why?

You're just making statements here without backing them up with reason. I was polite enough to not only provide you with a background about the Serpent Handlers, but I also gave you several logical points as to why these people are more Christian than, say, the Catholic Church. Would it be asking you too much to do the same for me?

I could be wrong on the subject of the correct church.

You mean when you claimed that they are Protestants? According to the book I'm reading on them, what my professor said about them, and the several websites I reviewed about them, they are indeed a Pentacostal faith. Just don't ask me what that all means.

But calling it more logical is just plain silly.

Statement... does not... compute....

This is one of the main reason why I started this thread. One of the biggest and most common arguments you always use against other faiths is that they are not (as) logical. However, what you ALWAYS manage to do is somehow forget to add in WHAT your logic is based upon. Care to do so this time around please?

These people claim to have personal relations with God the same way my sister claims to have personal relationships with Orlando Bloom. They both think they are somehow special, that God, an unkowable, allpowerful being, feels the need to talk with them.

You sister is pretty darn silly then, but that says nothing about the Serpent Handlers. They *are* conversing with a supreme being and they *are* special to that figure. They *all* have *personal* relationships with this entity. This God *does* want to talk to them, otherwise He wouldn't be there in the first place.

I don't think that. I know my own importance.

And you're allowed to think that way. And you're allowed to let a religion tell you how much you are worth. Doesn't mean that it applies to others though.

Interstingly enough, you didn't address how these "Holy Rollers" are able to perform physcially impossible feats. Or the fact that they repeatedly and regularly entrust their belief with their literal lives. Or how the use of snakes in a religion can be found all over the world and therefore must be a truely religious thing to use.

in the face of blatant trolling.

Blatant trolling? I think not. I did a perfectly acceptable job of giving everybody a detailed introduction to the Serpent Handlers. And when Kharn questioned what I was trying to do, I explained my position. Controversial topic, perhaps, but not trolling. I *do* believe in what I'm saying here.

 

[Big T]

I *do* believe in what I'm saying here.

That may well be true, I have no dispute with that, but the reason you posted was to provoke a reaction from CCR.
I happen to agree that some of CCRs previous posts (particularly in his discussions with Watergirl & Dove where he has stated that their religion(/s) is(/are) less logical than his) are themselves illogical and in many cases offensive. That does not make trolling OK.

 

[John Uskglass]

sidetracking by pretending to be interested in somebody else's familial history.

Wooz was Born in France to Mexican-Polish parents. I'd say that is at the very least more interesting then debating Christanity with a Canadian athiest.

I see... So you base your religious views on what other people will think of you and not what you truely believe is right... Apparently your parent's supposed wealth is enough to compensate you for this... Interesting...

Nope. I just have respect for them, remember the 10 commandments? Weatlh is an added plus. There is of course doctrinal backing for me to give them the cold shoulder religiously, but again, I need to be taken seriously, and not as some New Age convert when I go to a Chruch I might have interest in attending frequently.

How exactly does this relate to what we've been talking about?

I am still a Christian, and I think I am just as Christain as any of these holy rollers.

Care to elaborate? Besides the way that "Christian" Missionaries have invaded just about every country there is out there?

Western cultural penetation stopping polygamy and instituting Democratic government in Turkey and southeast asia..........hell, considering that the morals you call "Western" are very deeply indebted to Christian morals, I am not sure how you can argue with me.

Impossible? According to what? Crazy? Why?

Now you are just being a trolling bitch.

If I where to pray reverantly for half an hour, if I where to spend the rest of my life on Mt. Athos, that would be a life of devoution- I would not expect God to show himself outside of his actions. That is faith. Saying that I can talkt to God, or that God posseses me, that is insanity.

You're just making statements here without backing them up with reason. I was polite enough to not only provide you with a background about the Serpent Handlers, but I also gave you several logical points as to why these people are more Christian than, say, the Catholic Church. Would it be asking you too much to do the same for me?

Well, you have failed remarkably to prove anything. I in the trinity and the importance of redepmtion, and the bible....thus they are Christian. Arguments over who is more Christian then others is moronic, and leads to shit like the Reformation or the Fourth Crusade. Some Chruches might lead a more Christian life, but the fact remains that they still belive in Christanity.

Who'd a thought I'd be the one with both popular approval and a few flame free posts in the midst of trolling?

You mean when you claimed that they are Protestants? According to the book I'm reading on them, what my professor said about them, and the several websites I reviewed about them, they are indeed a Pentacostal faith. Just don't ask me what that all means.

There are three main branches of Christanity, and they are certainly not Catholic or Orthodox, and they have little in common with any of the Gnostic, Monophysite, Mandean or syncretic religions, thus they are Protestant.

This is one of the main reason why I started this thread. One of the biggest and most common arguments you always use against other faiths is that they are not (as) logical. However, what you ALWAYS manage to do is somehow forget to add in WHAT your logic is based upon. Care to do so this time around please?

I think I can talk to God. I don't expect him to talk back. Maybe show himself thru actions, but that is about it.

That is the thing you do not understand. I cannot perform miracles, nor can any living man, and I belive that. However, wiccans and pagans think they can with magic. That is why my faith is more rational.

You sister is pretty darn silly then, but that says nothing about the Serpent Handlers. They *are* conversing with a supreme being and they *are* special to that figure. They *all* have *personal* relationships with this entity. This God *does* want to talk to them, otherwise He wouldn't be there in the first place.

He does not "talk". He is no human. His divine will does not need to be shown to some Americans in the south west. His goal is not to talk to these people- his goal is to help them, to judge them, and to guide them.
And stop calling it "this God". Kind of insulting.

Interstingly enough, you didn't address how these "Holy Rollers" are able to perform physcially impossible feats. Or the fact that they repeatedly and regularly entrust their belief with their literal lives. Or how the use of snakes in a religion can be found all over the world and therefore must be a truely religious thing to use.

Faith does that, and I do not doubt thier faith.

Blatant trolling? I think not. I did a perfectly acceptable job of giving everybody a detailed introduction to the Serpent Handlers. And when Kharn questioned what I was trying to do, I explained my position. Controversial topic, perhaps, but not trolling. I *do* believe in what I'm saying here.

Actually, the way you started it was an assault on Christanity for all being holly rollers who should be in a gay bar. You did not even mention anything specific or meaningful in your first post.


Sorry if anything is really ilogical in this, I did not get enough sleep last night.

 

[Ozrat]

So let me get this straight...

Wooz was Born in France to Mexican-Polish parents. I'd say that is at the very least more interesting then debating Christanity with a Canadian athiest.

Oh really? First time I've ever noticed you have a full conversation with him without managing to use any slighty-offensive terminology against him and what he was saying. Maybe its just me, but that sure doesn't happen too often. Besides, you didn't even learn that about him until his very last post anyways. Did you see that coming in the future before you started your side-stream dialog with him?

So the fact that my sources are people with doctorates specifically in the study of religions is somehow invalidated by the fact that I'm saying it too? Besides, I don't ever recall describing what my religious and spiritual views are, and especially never as a "Canadian Athiest". I have always been spiritual in the fact everything around us, be it organic, alive, man-made, metallic or inorganic, has an energy/soul. After all, its only logical since its proven by science, right? You can't fight the fact that EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE has energy in it. If it didn't have a single bit of energy in it, it would be at Absolute Zero, which is physically impossible.

I do recall once stating that if I were to ever take up a faithful practice in any denomination, it would be along the lines of Paganism and Wicca. Oh wait now, doesn't all that science explain Paganism as being a logical religion if EVERYTHING has an Energy/Spirit/Soul associated with it? Interesting... Discuss.

Nope. I just have respect for them, remember the 10 commandments? Weatlh is an added plus. There is of course doctrinal backing for me to give them the cold shoulder religiously, but again, I need to be taken seriously, and not as some New Age convert when I go to a Chruch I might have interest in attending frequently.

So now its your age that is preventing you from fulfilling your true religious belief? So it's wrong for teenagers to decide for themselves what they truely believe? After all, you seem to know what you really believe in yourself, but you just can't be allowed to have a religious viewpoint that opposes the one that your parents hold to be true despite the fact that we have something called Freedom of Speech and its perfectly acceptable in God's eyes that you can be allowed to have differing political views under this same arbitrary age limit that you seem to have? Since we don't have a Spock troll here at NMA, I'll be the first to say that this is simply not logical under our "logically superior" modern Western morals and human rights in this "mainly Christian influenced" civilization of ours.

I am still a Christian, and I think I am just as Christain as any of these holy rollers.

Never said that you weren't, and please stop calling them "holy rollers". I'll get more into detail why you shouldn't later on.

Western cultural penetation stopping polygamy and instituting Democratic government in Turkey and southeast asia..........hell, considering that the morals you call "Western" are very deeply indebted to Christian morals, I am not sure how you can argue with me.

You mean the same basic morals that can be found in every humanistic culture and religion? After all, I thought this country itself was founded by a bunch of "athiests"?

Impossible? According to what? Crazy? Why?

Now you are just being a trolling bitch.

No, they're perfectly reasonable questions. You said something and I asked you to explain why. No need to start calling me a "bitch" for it. You were doing so well being "diplomatic" before, why go back to spoiling that now?

If I where to pray reverantly for half an hour, if I where to spend the rest of my life on Mt. Athos, that would be a life of devoution- I would not expect God to show himself outside of his actions. That is faith. Saying that I can talkt to God, or that God posseses me, that is insanity.

Again; why?

Well, you have failed remarkably to prove anything. I in the trinity and the importance of redepmtion, and the bible....thus they are Christian. Arguments over who is more Christian then others is moronic, and leads to shit like the Reformation or the Fourth Crusade.

Okay, so all Christian denominations are equalitarian, correct?

Some Chruches might lead a more Christian life, but the fact remains that they still belive in Christanity.

Too bad that directly contradicts what you just said in your previous three sentences.

Who'd a thought I'd be the one with both popular approval and a few flame free posts in the midst of trolling?

I was hoping that it would be possible, but that chance was destroyed when you started calling me a "bitch". And you seem to be missing the point that everybody in this thread who has declared that I was trolling have also agreed that my first few posts were no different than what they have seen come from you on a regular basis. My last couple of posts, however, were not trolling and that was ironically when you finally deviated from your otherwise good behavior in your replies.

There are three main branches of Christanity, and they are certainly not Catholic or Orthodox, and they have little in common with any of the Gnostic, Monophysite, Mandean or syncretic religions, thus they are Protestant.

Like I said before, I'm in no way familiar with this terminology and therefore cannot really do anything besides cite my texts, which are academically correct and do not mention these branches that you are talking about. But then again, you haven't fully explained this to contradict what I'm saying at all yet.

You did not even mention anything specific or meaningful in your first post.

See how it can be annoying then?

I think I can talk to God. I don't expect him to talk back. Maybe show himself thru actions, but that is about it.

Oh, so God is fully capable of, say, ignighting a bush to give a signal to a prophet and parting the Red Sea long enough to allow an entire clan of runaway slaves to safely pass through, right? Last I checked with the world of science, that require the ability to fuck around with the very thermal and mechanical properties of all matter. But He is still somehow incapable of voicing things? Even though it would be much much more effective to communicate in ways that cannot be misinterpreted? Despite the fact that we humans communicate with our voices by soundwaves that affect the way air molecules are interacting with each other? Science also tells me that the amount of energy and matter manipulation that it would require for God to make a voice that is strong enough to be heard over several miles or weak enough to be a private whisper in somebody's ear canal are both microscopic and insignificant when compared to the burning bush and Red Sea stunts. Why can't a voice be among the list of possible actions that God can perform to communicate with his faithful following and all others?

Oh darn, I guess science also just completely explained how there can be the Spirit, Fire, Air, Earth and Water elements that that crazy WaterGirl was raving about before as well... Why must logic be so cruel?

That is the thing you do not understand. I cannot perform miracles, nor can any living man, and I belive that.

That is correct; that is what you believe.

However, wiccans and pagans think they can with magic. That is why my faith is more rational.

And once again, you simply saying so isn't enough to make it "rational". Actual logic please? From what I understand about their spells and magic, they're doing nothing that's radically different than your average Christian prayer. If you care to tell me why that is not the case, feel free to try and do so.

He does not "talk". He is no human.

See my previous logical counterargument.

His divine will does not need to be shown to some Americans in the south west. His goal is not to talk to these people- his goal is to help them, to judge them, and to guide them.

Oh really? I don't recall reading anything about his plans in America in any Biblical text. Did He tell you that Himself, or did he miraculously draw a big red 'X' on the map as a sign? Either way, you still think that Tennesee is located in the South-West when its really in the South-East. What did you hear about that particular region? So he's supposed to guide them somehow without showing his divine will? How do you propose that to be rationally possible?

And stop calling it "this God". Kind of insulting.

A reasonable request, and since I didn't realize that it was offensive for some people I agree I should cease to use that wording again. But it is one that I can only grant if you will fairly do me a favor in kind:

these holy rollers.

Maybe you aren't aware of this, but this terminology is offensive to the Serpent Handlers and similar Established Sects as well. If you look back, you've used this name quite frequently in this thread. Do unto others as you would want unto you, or something along those lines...

Faith does that, and I do not doubt thier faith.

Never said that you don't doubt that they believe their own faith. What I'm saying is that you are infamous for your ability to frequently bash the validity of other faiths without fully explaining yourself or taking into consideration what points others have brought up about them. Big diff.

Actually, the way you started it was an assault on Christanity for all being holly rollers who should be in a gay bar.

Now wait a minute. Not once did I assault Christianity. Don't you remember? I was generating a discourse on why I find the Serpent Handlers and their total entrustment of their very lives to repeatedly prove and reinforce their Christian faith to be much religiously ethical than other sects of Christianity. You, however, just gave yourself another big glaring blackmark by implying, no, STATING that these "holy rollers" are a bunch of homosexuals. I find that funny because you are automatically connecting them to a "sin" that is easily enough for eternal damnation under certain other Christian denominations that I will not name as well without even giving a single reason or detail that would imply them to be of this particular sexual orientation. SPOCK TROLL, WHERE ARE YU0?!?

Sorry if anything is really ilogical in this, I did not get enough sleep last night.

My condolences about the sleep. Haven't slept well myself lately, but that doesn't seem to be affecting my rationalization skills despite the facts that I was at school for fourteen hours, that its almost 2 am right now and that I have an early morning class tomorrow along with another fourteen hour day.

Gee, I kinda like doing this whole LOGIC thing with you now. After all, it does actually require the activity of actually using it to describe something instead of just expecting others to take what you say for granted...

Don't worry though, because my Sociology professor, whom went to a private Catholic school from kindergarten to Grade 13 (yes, they had an extra year of secondary education here in Canada up until last year. It was the equivalent of a transition year of education between High School and University that's free under public education as well), has cited several sources and books on research about adult cognitive levels tell us that one out of every three adults in our Western society are literally incapable of performing any independant metacognitive thinking regardless of ethnic, cultural or religous background.

In other words, I challenge you to testify against what I have proven to you to be logically sound in detail. Its only fair that you fight fire with fire instead of beating around the bush again yet AGAIN with your "logical" and "rational" claims.

Why not extend the same courtesy to him? Is it just because he's trying to get you locked in wordgames, to contradict yourself? If he manages to do so, wouldn't that prove that you need to think about your own views on life?

Indeed.

Ponder.

Discuss.

Been there, done that.

 

[Brother None]

Well, I might disagree with them ,but that does not make them any less Christian. I could be wrong on the subject of the correct church.

Question: if this is true of different churches inside Christianity, why is it not true for other beliefs? If you can't decide whether orthodoxes, protestants or catholics have it right, why can you decide on Islam, Judaism and paganism?

 

[welsh]

To paraphrase my Religion Anthropology professor, these people are in contact with their supreme being on a regular basis. These people do not depend on others to tell them what to believe and how to feel. They are allowed to express themselves wholely and completely.

Your Religious Antropology professor is an asshole. By claiming the these folks are in contact with a supreme being on a regular basis he is, in fact, claiming that:
(1) A supreme being exists
(2) that one can recognize this supreme being.

Consider that there are folks of a variety of different faiths that have gone through trance-like stakes, can drink poison and live, can poke themselves with holes, can handle snakes, that dance around in trance means they could be-

Christian, Muslim, Voodoo practitioners, Hindu, Buddhist?

People of many different faiths and beliefs are going the same thing- so which is right? Perhaps none.

That the same dependent variable (trance-like spiritual states) can be attributable to different independent variables (religious faiths/systems) indicates that there is another yet unknown variable at play.

As the process of science is in part the acheivement of generalizable laws through the falsification of theories, one of the few modest claims of science is this- we don't know everything.

Perhaps what is holding them together is a psychological/physical phenomena and not a spiritual metaphysical one?

And if there is one, than it doesn't much care about the particularities of the faith. So maybe it's a supreme being. Ok, but if so than we can't identify it yet. By claiming it is means you are taking all other variables that are yet undiscovered and putting them in a big category called "contact with supreme being."

He's (your teacher) is an asshole.

These are people who have repeatedly healed people even after they have died from drinking poison simply through the power of prayer. These are people who can do physically impossible things. How anybody can imply that their faith is some how INFERIOR to others is simply beyond me.

I do, however, want CCR to explain to me with logic and ration how this isn't the case, especially since he does the same to just about every other belief that has been brought up here. I think its only fair that he can defend his religion against another one that has already been explained here.

I do recall something in the bible about the danger of testing one's faith.

Regardless, since we cannot claim that it is their "faith" that is superior but perhaps their "spirituality" that allows them certain physical or mental abilities (unless there's a little fraud at work), than perhaps we are examining the wrong variable?

 

[Murdoch]

My thoughts exactly Welsh. Glad you said it, my rebuttal woulda sucked compared to yours.

 

[Brother None]

He's (your teacher) is an asshole.

Not the first bit of bad knowledge/experience either

You got a professor that almost blew up a gastank, another one that is pretty biased for a "religion anthropology" teacher and then, apparently, an anthropology teacher that tries to convince you that hunter-gatherers had it better than us.

Ozrat, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but your Uni blows big balls.

 

[John Uskglass]

Oh really? First time I've ever noticed you have a full conversation with him without managing to use any slighty-offensive terminology against him and what he was saying. Maybe its just me, but that sure doesn't happen too often. Besides, you didn't even learn that about him until his very last post anyways. Did you see that coming in the future before you started your side-stream dialog with him?

Okay. A Mexican describes in detail the workings of Aztec Paganism to an extent not even my Mexican friends would have any clue about. So now I am "the big bad reactionary" for being curious why a Polish Anarchist would know so much about the Aztec religion? Can I just go off topic for a second-just a second-without it making me more disgusting in your eyes?

So the fact that my sources are people with doctorates specifically in the study of religions is somehow invalidated by the fact that I'm saying it too? Besides, I don't ever recall describing what my religious and spiritual views are, and especially never as a "Canadian Athiest". I have always been spiritual in the fact everything around us, be it organic, alive, man-made, metallic or inorganic, has an energy/soul. After all, its only logical since its proven by science, right? You can't fight the fact that EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE has energy in it. If it didn't have a single bit of energy in it, it would be at Absolute Zero, which is physically impossible. I do recall once stating that if I were to ever take up a faithful practice in any denomination, it would be along the lines of Paganism and Wicca. Oh wait now, doesn't all that science explain Paganism as being a logical religion if EVERYTHING has an Energy/Spirit/Soul associated with it? Interesting... Discuss.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...0236732/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/104-8210810-2431132

Good book. And Christanity belives that God made that stuff, hence it does have a spirit.

So now its your age that is preventing you from fulfilling your true religious belief? So it's wrong for teenagers to decide for themselves what they truely believe? After all, you seem to know what you really believe in yourself, but you just can't be allowed to have a religious viewpoint that opposes the one that your parents hold to be true despite the fact that we have something called Freedom of Speech and its perfectly acceptable in God's eyes that you can be allowed to have differing political views under this same arbitrary age limit that you seem to have? Since we don't have a Spock troll here at NMA, I'll be the first to say that this is simply not logical under our "logically superior" modern Western morals and human rights in this "mainly Christian influenced" civilization of ours.

It's not your place to question my descisions. I respect the fact that my parents take extremely good care for me, thus I go along with what my parents want for a little while.

Also, I am slightly sociophobic, so give me a fucking break from this, will you? God, every one of my statements you have to twist until it furthers your agenda.

You mean the same basic morals that can be found in every humanistic culture and religion? After all, I thought this country itself was founded by a bunch of "athiests"?

Actually, they where mostly diests. Infact, all of them. Some of them had alot of beef with all organized religion, including my personal favorite, but the fact remains that every man jack of them where Diests.

And you have to be fucking kidding me about "humanistic culture". Last I checked "humanistic culture" was non exsistant before Christanity and in athiest socities like Cambodia, the USSR or Maoist China. Unless you want to argue that certain humanistic values, like cutting open a person's rib cage, and spreading thier intestins into the shape of an eagle for Odin, are "humanistic".

Again; why?

Because it fits under a little thing called schizophrenia. By that logic, anyone who thinks they are the actualization of the Maqis de Sade's penis is not automatically insane.

More on this later.

Too bad that directly contradicts what you just said in your previous three sentences.

Nope. The belivers are equal, so are the rights, but the history of the Church may be spotted. They are equal as belivers, thus, unlike, say, the Baptists, I don't think they are going to hell for not following the correct practice word for word.

I was hoping that it would be possible, but that chance was destroyed when you started calling me a "bitch". And you seem to be missing the point that everybody in this thread who has declared that I was trolling have also agreed that my first few posts were no different than what they have seen come from you on a regular basis. My last couple of posts, however, were not trolling and that was ironically when you finally deviated from your otherwise good behavior in your replies.

Okay, that was stupid of me, but your way of arguing must be the most annoying ever, and I am really, really tired of you either insulting my faith (these people are more Christain then you are, and are more logical in thier faith), or my intellegence later on.

Like I said before, I'm in no way familiar with this terminology and therefore cannot really do anything besides cite my texts, which are academically correct and do not mention these branches that you are talking about. But then again, you haven't fully explained this to contradict what I'm saying at all yet.

They are probably another breakoff of the Calvanists, hence I have no problem whatsoever with calling them Protestant. Protestant baisically means that they are indebted to Luther for not being Catholic, and as the Orthodox have never been Catholic, they are not Protestants. Get it?

See how it can be annoying then?

You where implying that Christanity was not the faith that I have loved for years, and instead it was primarily composed of that kind of people.
That's called trolling, buddy.

Oh, so God is fully capable of, say, ignighting a bush to give a signal to a prophet and parting the Red Sea long enough to allow an entire clan of runaway slaves to safely pass through, right? Last I checked with the world of science, that require the ability to fuck around with the very thermal and mechanical properties of all matter. But He is still somehow incapable of voicing things? Even though it would be much much more effective to communicate in ways that cannot be misinterpreted? Despite the fact that we humans communicate with our voices by soundwaves that affect the way air molecules are interacting with each other? Science also tells me that the amount of energy and matter manipulation that it would require for God to make a voice that is strong enough to be heard over several miles or weak enough to be a private whisper in somebody's ear canal are both microscopic and insignificant when compared to the burning bush and Red Sea stunts. Why can't a voice be among the list of possible actions that God can perform to communicate with his faithful following and all others?

Wow. Nice way to get around the obvious there.

God can do it. God can do anything. But God never commands in the scriptures for people to use snakes. God never commands people to roll on the floor. God never made anybody speak in tounges. These people do it themselves. And I have no idea why you are arguing with me on this, as you obviously agree.

That is correct; that is what you believe.

That is rational. That is the obvious fucking conclusion, as my attempts to kill you with my mind are obviously not fucking working.

And once again, you simply saying so isn't enough to make it "rational". Actual logic please? From what I understand about their spells and magic, they're doing nothing that's radically different than your average Christian prayer. If you care to tell me why that is not the case, feel free to try and do so.

So you think insense, getting around a pentigram, lighting candels, and praying to Thor is what Christains do? Damn, if that is what Christians do, what the fuck kind of religion have I been practicing?

Almost all Christains belive that you cannot simply channel God with "I COMPEL THESE DEAMONS TO GET OUT!". GOD does it. Thus applying your magical powers to some earthquake in Izmir is useless, as man has no magical powers.

Oh really? I don't recall reading anything about his plans in America in any Biblical text. Did He tell you that Himself, or did he miraculously draw a big red 'X' on the map as a sign? Either way, you still think that Tennesee is located in the South-West when its really in the South-East. What did you hear about that particular region? So he's supposed to guide them somehow without showing his divine will? How do you propose that to be rationally possible?

The word of God is not limited to a specific part of the world or the Universe. Stop twising my words.

He has shown his divine will. Read the Bible, it's almost all in there.

A reasonable request, and since I didn't realize that it was offensive for some people I agree I should cease to use that wording again. But it is one that I can only grant if you will fairly do me a favor in kind:

This is a really long post, so I am afraid I might have called them Rollers once, but have now chaged it to Snakes, which is actually shorter.

Never said that you don't doubt that they believe their own faith. What I'm saying is that you are infamous for your ability to frequently bash the validity of other faiths without fully explaining yourself or taking into consideration what points others have brought up about them. Big diff.

I really hate the action of betraying God for a religion that was rightfully wipedout a thousand years ago for being inhumane and barbaric. I do not like the tendancies nor the doctrines of some other faith, but I despise New Age spirituality.

Now wait a minute. Not once did I assault Christianity. Don't you remember? I was generating a discourse on why I find the Serpent Handlers and their total entrustment of their very lives to repeatedly prove and reinforce their Christian faith to be much religiously ethical than other sects of Christianity. You, however, just gave yourself another big glaring blackmark by implying, no, STATING that these "holy rollers" are a bunch of homosexuals. I find that funny because you are automatically connecting them to a "sin" that is easily enough for eternal damnation under certain other Christian denominations that I will not name as well without even giving a single reason or detail that would imply them to be of this particular sexual orientation. SPOCK TROLL, WHERE ARE YU0?!?

Hell yes you did. Read the first post. Think of it from my perspective. I already adressed this above.

And I made a joke.....so what? I was really tired, and I personally think that these Serpent Handelers are somewhat crazy.

Don't worry though, because my Sociology professor, whom went to a private Catholic school from kindergarten to Grade 13 (yes, they had an extra year of secondary education here in Canada up until last year. It was the equivalent of a transition year of education between High School and University that's free under public education as well), has cited several sources and books on research about adult cognitive levels tell us that one out of every three adults in our Western society are literally incapable of performing any independant metacognitive thinking regardless of ethnic, cultural or religous background.

What welsh said. And saying that you where a being a bit of a trolling bitch is not as bad as doubting my ability to "one of every three adults are incabable of performing independant metacognative thinking".

O, and he's a Vidal-esque pretentious shithead who thinks probably has an obsession with his weird version of the intellectual ubermesch he thinks he is.

 

[John Uskglass]

I do recall something in the bible about the danger of testing one's faith.

Babel?
Which is why I said that perfect faith leads you to Mt. Athos, not to write a book on Creationism being a viable scientific theroy (which it is not).

Question: if this is true of different churches inside Christianity, why is it not true for other beliefs? If you can't decide whether orthodoxes, protestants or catholics have it right, why can you decide on Islam, Judaism and paganism?

All religions try to worship God. If you look closely at even every Pagan religion that was based more upon thousands of years of tradition then a literal reading of the AD&D manual or the belief that the Jews made Christanity to weaken Germans, all of them belive in a father God that made everything. Matter of fact, I was just reading Chinua Achebe's Things Fall Apart with a discussion on just that subject.

Problem being Baptism, as only Christains and some Jews practice it. And the Jihad is not the best way to celebrate love of God.

He's (your teacher) is an asshole.

Not the first bit of bad knowledge/experience either

You got a professor that almost blew up a gastank, another one that is pretty biased for a "religion anthropology" teacher and then, apparently, an anthropology teacher that tries to convince you that hunter-gatherers had it better than us.

Ozrat, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but your Uni blows big balls.

You forgot the crazy Polish chick.

 

[Sander]

Good book. And Christanity belives that God made that stuff, hence it does have a spirit.

He asked for logic. This is not logic. This is justifying a belief with a belief. That's not how logic works, that's how beliefs work.

Actually, they where mostly diests. Infact, all of them. Some of them had alot of beef with all organized religion, including my personal favorite, but the fact remains that every man jack of them where Diests.

True dat.

And you have to be fucking kidding me about "humanistic culture". Last I checked "humanistic culture" was non exsistant before Christanity and in athiest socities like Cambodia, the USSR or Maoist China. Unless you want to argue that certain humanistic values, like cutting open a person's rib cage, and spreading thier intestins into the shape of an eagle for Odin, are "humanistic".

And this is silly.
Must I explain for the fourth bloody time that states that insititutionalize atheism are bad, but that this has nothing to do with.atheism.itself??

Plus, you can't deny that there is such a thing as Western morals, although they do owe a lot to Christianity.
THey're still seperate, though.

Because it fits under a little thing called schizophrenia. By that logic, anyone who thinks they are the actualization of the Maqis de Sade's penis is not automatically insane.

Ahh.. But there is no way to know that that person is the insane one....

Okay, that was stupid of me, but your way of arguing must be the most annoying ever, and I am really, really tired of you either insulting my faith (these people are more Christain then you are, and are more logical in thier faith), or my intellegence later on.

True dat. Ozrat seems to be used to flaming, not debating.

Ugh. Badness:

God can do it. God can do anything.

Good start.

But God never commands in the scriptures for people to use snakes.

Decent follow-up. Although BEFORE the scriptures, God never commanded anything in there either.

God never commands people to roll on the floor. God never made anybody speak in tounges.

BAD! YOu do not know this. YOu merely assume this.
How do you know that God is WITHOUT A DOUBT not speaking to these people, and making them speak in tongues/making them roll on the floor?

That is rational. That is the obvious fucking conclusion, as my attempts to kill you with my mind are obviously not fucking working.

Bwahahahaaaa!!
Although, of course, the fact that you have not performed miracles (and have not been able to) does not mean you are not able to at all, or that other people are not able to.

So you think insense, getting around a pentigram, lighting candels, and praying to Thor is what Christains do? Damn, if that is what Christians do, what the fuck kind of religion have I been practicing?

The point, CCR, was that there is no reason to believe that if prayer works, other magic doesn't work.

Almost all Christains belive that you cannot simply channel God with "I COMPEL THESE DEAMONS TO GET OUT!". GOD does it. Thus applying your magical powers to some earthquake in Izmir is useless, as man has no magical powers.

Argh! Stop confusing LOGIC for BELIEF, CCR.
Firstly, just because a majority believes something, that majority is not necessarily right. Do you really need to be made aware of the points in time where the majority of people did not believe in Christianity, for instance?
Plus, it is not written that man is incapable of magic. Just like it isn't written man is capable of walking.
This may seem a bit silly, but think about it. The absence of mention isn't the same as the absence of possibility.

The word of God is not limited to a specific part of the world or the Universe. Stop twising my words.

He has shown his divine will. Read the Bible, it's almost all in there.

True. But the fact that you (or others) believe in something, doesn't mean that you're right.

I really hate the action of betraying God for a religion that was rightfully wipedout a thousand years ago for being inhumane and barbaric.

Wow. How completely insulting, hateful, incompassionate and incorrect...

I do not like the tendancies nor the doctrines of some other faith, but I despise New Age spirituality.

And that's your right....

 

[John Uskglass]

And this is silly.
Must I explain for the fourth bloody time that states that insititutionalize atheism are bad, but that this has nothing to do with.atheism.itself??

Plus, you can't deny that there is such a thing as Western morals, although they do owe a lot to Christianity.
THey're still seperate, though.

I have, but you need thiests too keep "institutionalized athiesm" down, just like we need you to keep up science and shit.

And yes, they could now be considerd seperate, though they are still fairly deeply interwined, and situations that try to seperate Western morals from Christian morals, like Communism, are just as bad as without Western morals.


I agree with most of the rest of your post. Though prove me wrong on the last part....paganism at least used to mean a life without morals.