Redux: Download, Not Up To Date

Discussion in 'Fallout Tactics Modding' started by RasterOps, Jun 3, 2012.

  1. RasterOps

    RasterOps First time out of the vault

    Dec 19, 2003
    So far I'm enjoying this mod, especially the improved squad characters. Even more so, Eldora. I imagine if she could speak she would say something like "Thanks for choosing me to be on your squad. Every other squad leader is afraid, to have on their squad the daughter of [insert elder's name here] and niece of General Dekker.

    Which leads me to her bio. She wants to advance in rank... Can squadies even be promoted? If not why? If so, how? If not redux, why? :wink:

    Now on to the subject of this thread. The melee knife bug discussed here has not been applied to the download found here, which links to here. Eldora is using a Combat Knife while wearing Leather Armor Mark II and cannot make an attack with the knife. I'll be fixing this manually per your suggestion, but the fix should be in the download.

    Another thought/concern I have is the range of the SMG class assault rifles. These SMG's use assault rifle ammo and have longer barrels then typical 10mm SMG's. Furthermore, assault rifle ammo is higher power. Meaning, there is more powder behind the bullet. These two factors alone increase muzzle velocity and stability at longer ranges.

    Now, when am I going to get an assault rifle/SMG with some kind of scope?
  2. requiem_for_a_starfury

    requiem_for_a_starfury So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 3, 2003
    I don't remember any npc ever being promoted in the vanilla game, there's no specific scripting to be able to directly promote a character.

  3. RasterOps

    RasterOps First time out of the vault

    Dec 19, 2003
    Poor Eldora; doomed always to be an initiate. A Senor Initiate but an Initiate nonetheless. Then there's Belle, who dreams of being a general some day but having an intelligence of 4. Me thinks she's been shot in the head a few times too many. It just sux having Initiates in my squad who are better skilled than others of greater rank.

    More on my observations:
    In the original the Desert Eagle (name?) was superior to the similarly chambered pistol. In Redux the Talon Mark XIX has a range of 16 while the pistol a range of 18. The Talon is now only good for gold...

    Now this is interesting. Eldora just gained a rank and it has nothing to do with kills or perks. Farsight and Stitch are still initiates. Farsight has far more kills.
  4. TwoEyedYum

    TwoEyedYum Naked Moose

    Jan 21, 2010
    But they do. On the other side after several years of playing i can't say what gives them "rank" points - kills, dealt damage or time spent in party/missions... Even if i have constant team of 5 all the game, some of them may never get a rank, and others get 2-3, seems absolutely randomly...
  5. RasterOps

    RasterOps First time out of the vault

    Dec 19, 2003
    OK Farsight just got promoted, which begs asking again, what are the conditions that enable squadie promotions? If it is as TwoEyedYum suggests, purely random then it is out of player control. But if it is in the players control, it sure would be nice to know what we can do to get our squadies promoted.
  6. Vault Maker

    Vault Maker Vault-Tec Cartographer

    Jun 27, 2006
    I recall my squaddies being promoted. I was usually lazy and kept the same ones through the whole game. I think they might have gone up 3-4 ranks total (?).

    However it works, I guess it has to be a slow progression so the main character will always be the highest rank...otherwise you would get...The Horde Bug!
  7. RasterOps

    RasterOps First time out of the vault

    Dec 19, 2003
    So where's the update/feedback/discussion thread? It certainly shouldn't be in the News Comments section, IMHO.
  8. Endocore

    Endocore Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Mar 14, 2010

    I hope everyone may now be able to see the recruits as individuals worthy of some thought rather than the situation in the original game. I like Eldora myself, as well as "Billy" and "Vindi"-- thus since it's my mod, those who look carefully may notice these three characters have a smidge of bonus buffness. As you later noticed, squad members may indeed be promoted (in every game of my own, this happens for at least one soldier other than the main character), though like TwoEyedYum and Vault Maker I'm not certain what criteria or internal mechanic is utilized by the game to decide whether or not they are in fact promoted.

    In any case, as you've noticed the combat knife fix for the moment needs to be downloaded separately. The fix will certainly be included in an updated version of Redux (coming very soon-- my own new round of playtesting is now on Mission 23), but due to the way that otherwise fine (and free) Atomic Gamer site works trying to change an existing fileset would only cause considerable confusion and consternation among end-users.

    I disagree with your point on the SMGs; to me, high powered assault rifle ammo + shorter barrels and lower weight = difficult to control and thus less accurate at longer ranges (in other words, practical range = less than expected). My view is reflected in most of the descriptions for SMGs that use rifle ammunition, as I often used adjectives similar to "overpowered" and so forth. The same philosophy applies to the Desert Eagle-- semi-automatic pistols replaced revolvers in the last century because the former have a greater rate of fire and larger magazine capacity rather than because they are more accurate (indeed, quite the opposite in most cases).

    I only hoped to get something moving for FOT, however, and make no claim except longevity to be an authority on anything. I hope players/modders will take the material from my mod and make it their own, to the benefit of everyone still interested in FOT now and in the future.

    I'd want to check before commenting decisively, but I believe at minimum two of the sniper rifles (the 14mm rifle and the "night" rifle) are set to the long-range category.

    Since I already know what I think but would like to hear the views of others, to avoid prejudicing any expressions I felt I should wait for others to make a discussion thread for the mod rather than start such myself. If everyone likes, we can begin right here in RasterOps' posting.



  9. RasterOps

    RasterOps First time out of the vault

    Dec 19, 2003
    Weapon accuracy depends more on the design. The AK47 is notoriously inaccurate in auto mode as it tends to climb. The same is true of many pistol class SMG's. The assault class SMG's, commonly referred to as CQB weapons, are generally more stable. While these have a shorter range than their full-on assault rifle cousins, do to the shorter barrel, they are more accurate and have longer ranges than pistol class SMG's, do to their longer barrel, improved design and high power cartridges. The high power provides increased muzzle velocity and energy transfer. But I am just one person, let others decide if the weapon ranges are A) Adequate, B) Might unbalance the game, C) Need adjusting, D) Other.

    It is late in the game and I rarely use these weapons now. Didn't use them much before... I was constantly looking for something better, yet nothing was to be found. Now the Gauss pistol and Energy weapons have became available. This is disappointing for many reasons, primarily because I wanted to use the CQB weapons but was too disappointed by their range.

    I don't know what I can and can't wish for, so I thought I'd just throw some of these out there. Regardless, thanks for your effort.
    • When playing Turn Based at the beginning of the next turn the engine often selects multiple squadies. Then I, not paying attention click a destination only to have all selected move there. Aaagh.
    • Winded and Encumbered. So what, I can't run. I can walk the same distance as you. Muties can still get up close and personal and have sufficient AP's remaining to cave in my head. Uhm, I would prefer to see a 10% to 20% movement penalty for these conditions. Maybe Winded could also have a -1 Strength and/or Agility penalty. I am not certain if broken legs reduce movement but they should as well.
    • In turn based mode, stop centering the screen on the action. Perhaps offer an option to turn this feature off. Let the player decide where they want to look.
    • Reavers & robots fighting side by side against me. Same with Raiders and robots and who knows what else, mutants and robots? This may be original FOT but it's wrong on so many levels. The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend!
    • The Spasm Gun. Indications are the enemy was Stunned; pick an enemy any enemy, humanoid or bot. In the next combat round the enemy moves normally as if nothing happened. I don't play in real time mode. I cannot control a half dozen squadies instantaneously as the computer can. I play in Turn Base mode.
    • The Pacification bot "Stomp" animation/attack continues even after the computer turn has ended (again turn based combat).
    • Confirmed, Bonus Rate of Fire does not affect Big Guns.
  10. Makenshi

    Makenshi Ahoy, ye salty dogs!

    Jul 28, 2006
    Now THIS is outrageous. Obscene. HERESY! Beer, guns and whores for he who fixes it.
  11. TwoEyedYum

    TwoEyedYum Naked Moose

    Jan 21, 2010
    Game engine flaw
    Movement mostly hardcoded in game engine. You walk OR you run, no other options, neither "faster" nor "slower".
    Game engine flaw, can't be edited in proposed way.
    Game engine flaw. Effect strength is based on dealt damage. And spasm gun deals very little damage, so very short effect exists. In Turn-based it can't be even properly used.
    Now that's strange one, as it worked in original game and some mods i played o_O
  12. requiem_for_a_starfury

    requiem_for_a_starfury So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 3, 2003
    Ahem read the readme.

    The best use of the spasm gun is to hit an opponent with it before you are going to move members of your squad. That way you minimize their chances of interrupts while your squad is out of cover.

    There's not a lot of leeway with ranges in FOT, with everything so compressed. The larger caliber smgs could go up slighty but you wouldn't see that much of a difference in game.
  13. Endocore

    Endocore Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Mar 14, 2010

    Thanks to all for the comments.

    A fundamental poor design in the FOT engine that dramatically shapes gameplay is the substitution of the odd "Overwatch" function instead of true reaction fire as traditionally found in most tactical simulation games. This decision was related to the game's "jack of all trades, master of none" approach of providing real time as well as turn-based play. Yet we see Microforte merely chose a bad design, rather than that these divergent modes of play are theoretically incompatible-- for example, X-Com Apocalypse takes a similar approach, but features genuine reaction fire in turn-based (TB) mode as well as generally satisfying turn-based play in my opinion (except for those little brain-sucking squid dudes :crazy: ).

    I always play in individual turn-based mode (I suspect RasterOps may be using squad turn-based mode, as I never noticed some of the interface issues he mentioned-- though problems are problems, and they should all be fixed if possible). In my view, the key tactic of FOT enemy resistance in TB revolves around facilitating effective enemy use of overwatch mode, since almost every map is based around the player assaulting fixed fortifications of the enemy. In general, to facilitate effective enemy use of overwatch mode the player-characters must be drawn quite close to the enemies. Thus part of my general philosophy in redesigning the weapons was to reduce ranges and increase damage values, allowing the otherwise fairly inept enemy forces their best chance of hurting player-characters who must themselves approach closely to use their own weapons. Broadly speaking, the main effect of increasing weapon ranges is merely to allow the player-characters to use attrition and snipe the enemy without any significant risk of effective counterfire. In my opinion, the TB game is already far too easy.

    The number one rule of game design should always be: If it's not fun, forget about it. I think RasterOps is making two separate points starting from a consideration of SMGs:

    1) The Redux mod uses weapon values not consistent with real-world behavior of nonfictional weapons
    2) Though the Redux mod claims to strive to increase tactical options and weapon choices for the player, in fact at least one entire class of weapons (SMGs) that were formerly useful are now fairly useless.

    On both points, RasterOps is largely correct and I agree with his critiques. However, I argue that (1) is a distraction from sound game design even though I appreciate that a sizeable player segment not just of FOT but of military-themed games in general are in fact very concerned with the issue of "realism" and derive a portion of their enjoyment of such games from how closely the game's fiction represents tangible facts. Regarding (2), the issue is related to my comprehensive approach that could not accomodate some details. In my view, the original game contains several large classes of weapons that are quite useless-- pistols, shotguns, melee weapons, and grenades. Pursuant to my general goal of making the game occur at closer-quarters to enhance enemy use of overwatch attacks in turn-based mode, I believe I also made all four of these weapon categories much more important to most styles of play than is the case in the original game. Furthermore, since the latter two categories rely on unique skills (melee and throwing rather than guns), I feel the range of plausibly effective character builds is considerably broadened by this approach. Thus the game is further enhanced, since previously impractical styles of play may now be explored.

    Unfortunately, the game engine in my opinion lacks sufficient versatility to support all the play options diverse players would fully enjoy, and we are left with only so many ways to skin a cat. Admittedly, I haven't found an effective way to integrate the SMG category of weapons into my larger model; in my several plays through the mod, I also have not made much use of SMGs. On the other hand, my characters now make liberal use of pistols-- as opposed to the original game, where in numerous playthroughs I never used pistols on any occassion except at Brahmin Woods. My playtests also made heavy use of grenadiers as well as troops armed with shotguns all the way through the game including inside Vault Zero-- which again is something novel for me, as in the past I never would have considered such tactics.

    I think the larger question therefore is: which approach provides the greatest entertainment to the greatest number of players? Were the benefits gained by an intentional dilution of SMG relevance worth the cost? This is of course a question for the audience to decide. I'm not committed to any principle or approach except to make the game more fun-- so whatever details that may entail, I'm all for the consensus of players.

    I looked through some of my savegames from my latest playthrough, and found I fairly consistently made use of numerous weapons that in the original game I would not have considered as I formerly raced to build an energy-weapons only team. Over the span of the entire game, representative equipment loads for my team were:

    Sniper 1-- Hunting Rifle, R11 (.44) revolver
    Sniper 2-- Hunting Rifle, Combat Shotgun
    Assault 1-- Camden E3 (M4) rifle, Fuller Model 9 (Sig) pistol
    Assault 2-- Holt 45 pistol, FR-17 (FN-FAL) rifle
    Medic-- Holt 45 pistol, Hunting Rifle
    Heavy Weapons-- Camden E36 (SAW), Fuller Model 9 pistol

    Sniper 1--Plasma pistol, MX14 rifle, grenades
    Sniper 2-- Jackhammer shotgun, MX14 rifle, Ripper
    Assault 1-- Camden E3 rifle, Jackhammer shotgun, Ripper
    Assault 2-- Camden E3 rifle, Jackhammer shotgun, grenades
    Medic-- Gauss Pistol, Grenade Launcher
    HW-- Bronson M2 heavy machine gun, Holt 45 pistol

    Cheyenne Mountain:
    Sniper-- Gauss rifle, Grenade Launcher
    Assault 1-- Pulse Rifle, Jackhammer shotgun, grenades
    Assault 2-- Plasma Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Ripper
    Assault 3-- Plasma Rifle, Jackhammer shotgun, grenades
    Medic-- Pulse pistol, Gauss rifle
    HW-- Bronson M2 (DU ammo), Jackhammer shotgun, grenades

    My own style of play includes much sneaking around and planting traps, so all of the above characters except the medic and heavy-weapons trooper also made liberal use of land mines and remotely-detonated bombs.

    I'm somewhat puzzled by the comment:

    Certainly in Redux SMGs are an odd man out, as opposed to in real life where such weapons fulfill a vital practical need under common tactical circumstances. However with their larger burst sizes, as well as the respectable damage of 10mm (JHP/AP) ammunition, I feel at least the 10mm SMGs are indeed fairly effective throughout most of the game (excluding vs. robots) for close-quarters combat. Even the 7mm and 8mm SMGs have practical ranges in the mid-20 hexes, which in my opinion begins to stray rather far from what should reasonably be construed as "close quarters." If RasterOps is saying part of his enjoyment of the game is derived from a role-playing element ("I want play an agile team of commandos armed with SMGs") there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I am quite literal in my advocacy of the "Whatever is fun = good game design, whatever is not fun = bad game design" philosophy, and don't have a commitment to any particular details. However when I think of close-quarters combat in FOT, I tend to think of combat occurring at ranges of less than 20 hexes-- ranges at which all the SMGs are very effective both in single-shot and in burst-fire mode against all but heavily-armored enemies.

    In my original notes on weapon revisions, I made the following set of guidelines. Among other matters, I also sought to keep the game's setting in mind-- in the game's timeline, powerful energy-based small arms were developed in the years leading up to the Apocalyse to combat the threat of Power-Armored infantry soldiers against whom traditional bullets of almost any caliber were increasingly ineffective. Furthermore, I felt the distinction between most weapons of similar caliber should be based on magazine capacity and rate of fire rather than range (though range may vary in some cases to reflect quality of manufacture) or damage (a 7mm bullet is 7mm wide and contains X grains of gunpowder regardless of the weapon used to fire it).


    6mm (5.56mm): 20-35
    7mm (.303): 25-40
    8mm (7.62mm): 30-45
    10mm (9mm): 30-45 (before JHP/AP adjustments)
    11mm (.44): 30-50
    12mm (.45): 35-50
    14mm (.50): 40-60
    Melee: 15-80
    Shotgun: 20-70
    Laser: 40-80
    Plasma: 70-120
    Pulse: 80-130
    Frag Grenade: 50-120
    40mm Grenade: 80-120
    Rocket: 100-180

    I felt these values, which remain largely unchanged in the current version of the mod, were a good compromise between realism (gross damage increases linearly with caliber size) and gameplay (a general increase in all values). Though I understand the position of some designers that damages should approach a constant value, I strongly disagree and feel that variability (for example, "Shotgun = 20-70" rather than "Shotgun = 45") dramatically increases suspense and replayability (in other words, fun). As for realism, combat doesn't occur under the static conditions of a skeet range where each shot impacts a static target-- therefore I feel variablity in damage offers a much better simulation as well. The modest damage of rifle-caliber munitions reflects the reality of modern military tactics-- where the primary concerns of strategists are inducing casualty attrition rather than lethality and limiting the gear-related weight burden of the individual soldier, and training focuses on creating a spatially-oriented "zone of lethality" with clouds of bullets rather than taking aim and firing at individual targets (since US General Marshall's studies in World War II clearly demonstrated that only a small percentage of battlefield soldiers actually used their weapons in a way likely to inflict harm upon individually identifiable opponents).


    Pistol, Shotgun, Grenade (CQB): < 20
    SMG: < 30 (burst < 25)
    Rifle: < 50 (burst < 35)
    Energy Rifle: < 40
    Machine Gun: < 25 (burst), < 40 (single)

    Again, these values are largely unchanged in the current version of the mod.

    AP cost:

    Melee: 2 (unfortunately I had to go with 3 here)
    Pistol: 3
    SMG: 4
    Rifle: 5
    Sniper Rifle, light machine gun: 6
    Heavy Weapon: 8

    I feel AP cost should be related to the practical deployment of a given weapon. Unfortunately, the game engine uses preset AP "categories" that preclude the direct individuation of weapon use costs. Since the only way to achieve an AP cost of 8 (barring use of FT Improver) is to utilize a melee-based category, the heaviest weapons (rocket launcher, miniguns, Bronson M2) do not benefit from Fast Shot/Bonus Rate of Fire. Although I would have preferred otherwise, in practice and after testing I now think this a boon to game balance, given the potential damage values of these weapons (except against robots). Several light machine guns (Camden E36, Vostok, etc) remain compliant with Fast Shot, and also now offer a single-shot mode for one less AP than burst-mode. Another oddity is the pistol category-- if a character takes both Fast Shot and Bonus Rate of Fire, pistols may be used for a mere 1 AP per shot (faster than melee attacks using a bonus perk). Though I'm not happy with this behavior, as mentioned above I was striving to take a larger view of greatest benefit to overall gameplay rather than whether any individual detail is optimal.

    In any case, all suggestions for revising or even dramatically altering the weapon mod values are welcome. If the Redux mod doesn't satisfy players, then the mod must change-- otherwise making it publicly available is much ado over nothing. While designing the mod, I feared requiring jarekfall's admirable FT Improver would simply be too confusing to average players, who often have grave difficulty using any sort of modification material. Based on if nothing else long experience in reading discussions on this very forum (my sympathies for MIB88 and killap know no bounds :wink: ) about common problems that prompt frustrated would-be players to post questions, I still feel strongly such is the case-- and I am pleased that as far as I can determine everyone who wants to play Redux has found the installation process quite painless. Nonetheless, FT Improver would indeed allow a better treatment of all these AP-cost related issues and perhaps I am wrong on the larger issue. What do others think on this matter?

    While we're on the subject of weapons and ammo, are there any players who are gung-ho on heavy exploration of random encounters or playing tough-guy mode using Redux? I use a character with a high outdoorsman skill to avoid random encounters except when I'm in the mood for such (not often), and have always finished Redux with an ample supply of critical types of anti-robot ammunition (pulse grenades, EMP shotgun shells, large energy cells, 40mm grenades). Yet the revised quartermaster list in Redux is (deliberately) rather stingy with such items, and players who frequently indulge in robot random encounters could be left in a very bad position to complete the final missions.


    As TwoEyedYum noted, the game's modding tools aren't able to investigate or resolve many of the problems you raised. Some unfortunate issues I have noted that are likewise hard-coded are:

    --Occassional (though sometimes reproducible) bugs leading to duplicated recruits in the recruit pool;
    --The ability of any character to "win" at gambling if the player persists in simply pressing the "gamble" button numerous times without putting up any stakes (because of this, fewer npcs are flagged to gamble in Redux);
    --The unfortunate method by which burst fire damage is resolved, leading to an artificially decreased effectiveness of all burst fire attacks;
    --Unique items found in various missions meant to be removed from play when the player-characters leave the map are not in fact removed if the character holding them is inside a vehicle;
    --If the player-characters are kneeling or crawling while entering a vehicle and that vehicle leaves the map, character statistics may become artificially and permanently raised/lowered;
    --If the player-characters are in a vehicle, leave a map in turn-based combat mode, and immediately travel to a BOS bunker, the game may become "endlessly stuck" in combat mode and the characters will be practically unable to leave the bunker.
    --Numerous Fallout/Fallout 2 perks are available in the game, but for various reasons either do not work or are not germane. I've identified a number of these, but perhaps others remain indistinguished.
    --In turn-based combat, a complex bug affects the use of first aid and doctor skills. If the player-character attempting to use either skill has more action points remaining than are required for the skill use, the skill use "seems" to occur but in fact does not-- yet the action points are lost. This cannot be fixed. For example, let's say Jane wants to use a first aid kit, and her action point cost to do so is 8. If Jane has 8 or more available action points, she should kneel/stand or walk a hex to the left then right to reduce her available APs to 7 or less before attempting to use the first aid kit. Otherwise, Jane will appear to use the first aid kit but her turn will "hang" until she takes some other action (perhaps using the first aid kit a second time).

    On the matter of stunned characters, if you look at a stunned character's record screen you'll see his or her perception and agility decrease. I always thus thought the primary effect of Stunned was meant to be decreased accuracy (practical range) with weapons rather than decreased mobility. The name of this status could be changed since it's in a text file-- perhaps "Confused" or "Frazzled" would be better status names for the condition?

    @Vault Maker

    The article linked in your signature looks very interesting, and after a perusal I now plan to read the whole piece. If you're the author, good job! :clap:


  14. TwoEyedYum

    TwoEyedYum Naked Moose

    Jan 21, 2010
    Not sure, but this should have been adressed in 1,27 patch already. Didn't happened for me approximately 3 years, and i always played with this patch.

    Bend/Break the rules - doesn't work at all. Myst. Stranger, Fortune Finder (or w/e it called) - same. Twitch gamer works if you add it manually to one of characters, but you can't pick it in game.

    Actually there's Modern Guns mod (only russian language for now, but anyway only for items description). Here "stun" renamed to "contusion" or "concussion" (based on how it usually called in english war-themed games). Because in MG all weapon damage greatly raised, "stun" effect usually lasts longer. Based on dealt damage, you can get "concussion" for 20-100 seconds or even more :) Others effects look more "realistic" too in such case - radiation really hurts, poison can deal significant damage (DPS also based on dealt damage). Some weapons with "knockback" effect can shut down your soldier for 1-3 min or more :)
    So i think you can do the same and rename "stun" to w/e you think fits your mod.
    I remember someone proposed to give every weapon "poison" effect (thus disabling all others btw) and rename it to "bleeding" ^^
  15. RasterOps

    RasterOps First time out of the vault

    Dec 19, 2003
    Reload... :) Evidently I'm a savescummer.

    True, I'll be changing to ITB.

    I don't have a problem with this, except dying... and yes my tactics have changed. All being said, I am pleased with the work you have accomplished.

    I agree, in previous games I relegated the pistol to officer status (very rarely used) and for purposes of weight reduction all other soldiers did not carry pistols... Now, I find pistols useful against all opponents, as sooner or later they all get within range. The advantage is the low AP cost, high damage and ammo characteristics.

    I consider pistols close range but not CQB weapons. My disappointment is in the ranges of the assault SMGs. In particular, I believe: the ARMS AF55 should have better ranges than the Morrison P5. And the Akesoli should have better ranges than the Maxwell Liberty. I apologize for not being more precise and any confusion I may have caused.

    When I compared these weapons I was left with one basic consideration, the ammo. At the time, I invariably choose the Morrison SMG and an ammo type other than ball. Why? Because the range of this weapon is superior to the ARMS AF55. So I looked and waited for the next assault SMG. Eventually I found the Maxwell (10mm) and Camden E3 but never found a suitable 8mm SMG.

    I do use the Maxwell Liberty and Camden E3 SMGs. Farsight still carries an ARMS AF55, as it is the only SMG class 8mm weapon. I do prefer SMG's, although as you indicated, burst mode doesn't work well. It's like all, one or nothing. It can be very frustrating.

    I don't want this thread to be monopolized by my SMG debate. The decision is yours. So enough from me, unless you have some specifically related question.

    I try to have at least one on my team with high Outdoorsman skill. I prefer to choose the encounter. I still find that after saying no, the team/vehicle moves a fraction and another encounter immediately occurs. I'm OK with the revised QM list, as knowing this, I do choose to avoid some encounters.
  16. drawnacrol

    drawnacrol It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 5, 2010
    On my last playthrough I edited all my characters so they had full outdoorsman + perks to avoid 99% of encounters. The game was overkill when trying to travel on the worldmap IMO

    Really looking forward to 1.1
  17. Vault Maker

    Vault Maker Vault-Tec Cartographer

    Jun 27, 2006
    I'm wordy but no author. Paul Brians published that as a book back in 1987 or so, and it's one of the most comprehensive studies of the topic. I'm fortunate to have a copy. His website has most or all of the text, plus he has updated it. And some other goodies, including an article on Russian nuke-fiction.

    This edition of Vault Maker Library Hour brought to you by: The Redux Mod: Getting Fallout Tactics fans back online since May 9, 2012.

    Back on topic though, I should start playing Redux this weekend, so no feedback yet. But there were a couple of things I wanted to throw out there.

    First, the discussion of weapon changes is great, and thanks to both Endocore and RasterOps for going into such a detailed treatment of the subject.

    I actually really like exploration, and I think some random encounters are important for the setting. I don't think I've had the "way too many REs" bug very much. Here's a slew of questions that I could probably dig up answers for (but please excuse my laziness), and an idea or two:
    * Improved REs that introduce some kind of...shall we say, Tactics...would be welcome.
    * Some of that might be accomplished with RE maps that have multilevel terrain. Even the Midwest actually does have some topography.
    * Another idea, if the placement of enemies within REs is hardcoded to be highly randomized, would be to have more involved "set-piece" battles implemented as Special Encounters.
    * Can you make SEs that are non-persistent...meaning, 1) repeatable, and 2) whose location circle disappears from the Worldmap as soon as you leave the SE? If so, you might be able to make SEs shoulder the burden of livening up the Worldmap.
    * RE types can be modified by Campaign variables (like turning off Reaver REs after allying with them). In the original campaign, if you have a Worldmap square with a high chance of Reaver encounters, when the Reaver REs are shut off, what happens to the chance of having REs in that square? Is it the same as before, just redistributed among the remaining valid RE types? Or when you would have had a Reaver RE, does nothing happen, and you just keep on truckin'? If it's the latter, you could set up groups of REs controlled by a Campaign variable, then let a player adjust the RE chance in-game. In effect, changing the Endocore Experience-O-Matic lever to a switch that controls the variable. I would think that 3 possible settings are all that's needed: none, some, lots (but a few more might be nice...)
  18. drawnacrol

    drawnacrol It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Dec 5, 2010
    Hey Endocore. Is there anyway you could have Ripley help you in the Great Bend mission somehow. When you rescue her in Freeport(2nd mission) it seems like she had a big part to play but you find her dead at the start of the map. I'm guessing her part was cut from the game.

    Is the jet bike key still in game? I always felt that was a pointless edition because it really got your hopes up that you would get a jet bike.
  19. Endocore

    Endocore Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Mar 14, 2010


    Thanks for the comments.

    I uploaded version 1.1 of the mod to Atomic Gamer, which includes the Combat Knife fix mentioned earlier in this discussion. A substantial (though not complete) changelog is also included in the mod's updated FOTR-readme.txt file.

    Fallout Tactics Redux version 1.1 (88MB): FOT-Redux-v11.7z

    Among other things, the good news is: I added a prostitute to Springfield. The bad news is: The player-characters can't hire her, and Fallout Tactics is still as chaste as a Jane Austen novel. :(

    If you already installed version 1.0 of Fallout Tactics Redux, you need not start a new game to get the benefits of the update in any part of the game you haven't yet played-- although some oddities may occur if you don't start fresh. For example, if you have a weapon in your inventory and a new version of the item is in 1.1, then the existing weapon won't stack with updated models and the existing version won't use the updated values.

    Barring any mangled files, no further updates are planned for the forseeable future. However, continuing feedback is welcomed and appreciated as I will return to the materials as hobby time allows and would like to see the scope of this project grow considerably as time goes on. Furthermore and in the meantime, all modders are definitely encouraged to freely make use of the Redux material in any way they see fit to improve the game for the benefit of all interested players.


    Thanks for the info. Of the stubborn problems I listed, I also haven't personally seen the crawling into a vehicle bug or the endless combat upon entering a BOS base in a vehicle, but a review of postings here at NMA indicates some players have had trouble with such in recent years. I couldn't find an entry for these two issues in MF's 1.27 patch log, so to be on the safe side players should probably be aware of the matters and only allow characters to enter vehicles from a standing position after combat ends (not really much effort required there, unless retreating from a random encounter).

    On the subject of perks, has your research at the Russian forum indicated any unlisted benefit associated with the Bracing perk? As matters currently stand, I see no reason whatsoever why a player should prefer Bracing instead of Weapon Handling:

    desc_bracing = {This character has learned how to brace large weapons whilst standing, and receives +2 ST for the purpose of attempting to wield large guns from a standing position.}

    desc_weaponHandling = {One can wield weapons much larger than average person of one's stature. This character gains +3 to Strength for the purpose of strength checks when trying to wield any weapons.}

    since Weapon Handling seems to do everything Bracing does as well as confer an additional benefit.

    Very sadly, in my opinion most of what was ever known about the game in the English-speaking world was lost ten or more years ago when the old Kreegle's Duck and Cover (.net) website vanished from the internet (the Wayback Machine only holds a list of topics from the forums there, but no actual discussions were preserved). A matter I believe was once discussed there, but of which I cannot remember anything, regards the large file called "game.pck" in the \core\ directory. My research in recent times while working on Redux indicated .pck files are associated with the Commandos series of games, but several programs I found from modding websites for that series wouldn't interact with this file. Have you or your colleagues ever determined the contents or purpose of FOT's game.pck?

    While working on Redux, I found some sort of Russian mod called "mg.rar" Though unable to understand (due to language barriers) any of the material, I did look at the weapon sprites and incorporated several pieces of this artwork into my mod. In my mod's credits, I noted I wanted to give credit to whoever created this material but was unable to comprehend the documentation to learn the name of the author. If "mg.rar" is the same as the "Modern Guns" you mentioned, do you happen to know who created the mod? I'd like to include their name/moniker in the Redux credits section to thank them for their work.


    The strangest bit in X-Com Apocalypse is that if your soldier is prone, the brain-sucking squids can't attack because apparently brain-sucking squid etiquette demands only dining on the brains of standing victims. The whole thing is weird/poorly designed, because after the squid harmlessly jumps on your lounging soldier you can stand up and exterminate them as they lay on the ground (apparently confused) or even pick them up and put them into your inventory, which seems to put them to sleep like babies in a cradle.

    Thanks for all the comments on SMGs, and your input is very appreciated. The high burst size and decreased range of the Camden E3 makes that weapon functionally similar to an SMG, and as my example from my own game shows I actually make heavy use of this rifle for much of the game. 7mm ammunition furthermore benefits from a slight armor penetration bonus, which helps 7mm weapons maintain some relevance in the later missions; I appreciate, as you mentioned, that the 8mm category is therefore under-utilized. I also see your point about the 6mm Akesoli in particular, and I will take a look at these values.

    A more subtle problem is that currently the single-player campaign doesn't offer enough missions (or a sufficient number of missions properly conceived) to justify a less erratic weapons progression. The Super Mutant subplot appears much too soon, followed likewise too quickly by the War on Robots. Thus the weapons progression in the game is largely: sharpened sticks for the first mission, decent firearms just long enough to figure out which is which, and then BFGs and energy weapons for most of the game. Ideally, I think the addition of several more Raider/Beastlord missions before the Mutants appear and an approximate restoration of several "lost" missions involving the Reavers before the Robots are fully revealed would among other things allow for a much more profound approach to weapons progression. Another way of looking at this is to say that after some decent SMGs appear, the next step up in armaments unfortunately isn't from decent to great SMGs but rather from decent SMGs (and rifles) to BFGs and advanced technology. The enemy threat level increases too far too fast, bypassing what should be a "sweet spot" for both SMGs and light machine guns against opponents like (better-armed) Beastlords or other (better) organized Raider-like opponents.

    To maximize the effect of any burst-fire in light of the way the game engine works, the most important element is to get as close to the enemy as possible-- sneaking up behind them to point blank range and unleashing a surprise burst is very effective against mutants, for example, to avoid overwatch/return fire from their heavy weapons. This tactic may be difficult to use during a mission like St. Louis, but for example at Jefferson my troops usually use this method to take out every mutant position except the gatehouse near generator one. Against mutants in the heavier metal armor, sneaking up on them and unleashing a burst from a Jackhammer shotgun loaded with slug shells is an excellent tactic that will most often take these hulking brutes down in one volley. The trouble of course is if your character has bad luck and fails, he gets a faceful of 14mm vengeance likely to ruin his day.

    @RasterOps, drawnacrol, Vault Maker

    Using the outdoorsman skill is likely the best tactic for approaching random encounters, as noted. I'm very frustrated with the random encounter situation, but in terms of frequency not much else can be done to improve gameplay; the encounter chances are set to minimal levels, and the only remaining step would be to have no random encounters at all. The game uses a very odd and poorly designed mechanic to call random encounters, and my interpretation of what I see in is that a serious communication breakdown occurred at some point in the game's development-- apparently designers did not understand at all the algorithm used by programmers. In the original game, the chance of an encounter in many map squares is in the 500 percent to 1000 percent range-- meaning in practice five to ten encounters will definitely occur each time each map square is traversed. Did this game even have playtesters? The particular encounters scheduled add cumulatively to the overall percentage; though in most cases I have the cumulative percentages genuinely under 25 percent in Redux, in some sections of the map there are still simply too many encounters called.

    Vault Maker proposed some very good ideas for supplemental encounters. Unfortunately recurring Special Encounters that aren't permanently recorded on the world map presents a few technical difficulties. The novel idea about allowing the player to choose his own desired encounter rate is quite plausible but would involve an enormous amount of effort-- but on the other hand, the amount of effort would likely be no greater than generally making a sensible fix of the entire random encounter mechanics so perhaps this idea should be pursued along with the latter. The rest of the ideas Vault Maker mentioned are very sound, effective, and attainable. The Redux documentation summarizes my own ideas, which unfortunately I just didn't have time for now to implement:

    Occassionally, the standard game's Ghoul random encounters on city maps do begin to approach a requirement for tactical thinking on the part of the player; my general idea then is that a good place to start adequately fixing random encounters would be to make the Ghoul encounters much better (i.e. challenging) and then use these as a model for other encounter sets.

    @Vault Maker

    I finished reading the article in your signature; it's fairly interesting, even though it's largely concerned with literary criticism that rapidly devolves into ideological polemic rather than a sober examination of history. I thought the first chapter was the best part since I wasn't familiar with some of the material the author surveyed in that section from the "Golden Age of Pulp SciFi," and as we know this is of course an important thematic component of the Fallout enigma (How did people at the birth of the atomic era envision the future?). In any case I learned some things and I'm glad I read it, so thanks for the info. 8-)

    Shiny Terminator robots and hairy deathclaws aside, one important way Fallout Tactics strays thematically from its stipulated fictional setting is that the game doesn't contain much trace of the naive optimism of the H.G. Wells Things to Come vision but also doesn't successfully entertain the dour Roger Zelazny Damnation Alley vibe (a riff later elaborated into The Wasteland of a certain black leather-garbed Australian)-- all of which are notions carefully weaved into the larger tapestry of both Fallout and Fallout 2. Yet this doesn't mean the game can never explore these themes, if we all pitch in and finally get serious about setting matters straight.


    Though I moved her location, Ripley's tale still ends in tragedy at Great Bend. Ideally, perhaps she could become a component in some modification of the mission that leads to a requirement to use the giant machine-press/stamper in the bottom left corner of the map? I'm just not sure what worthy challenge to put there, since the mission seems to be about finding a clue (crippled Pacification bot) rather than a big battle against Behemoths, etc.

    I can't check right this minute, but I'm pretty sure I left the Jet Bike key in the game. The key can be used with Nuka-Phil's bike (from the Special Encounter "Phil"). However, to get the bike you would of course have to kill poor Phil, which seems unlikely to spread goodwill and favorable publicity for the Brotherhood around the wasteland. :wink: I feel this would be even more shameful since in Redux Phil has a face (portrait) and will now chat with you about this and that as well as trade using a better inventory.


  20. requiem_for_a_starfury

    requiem_for_a_starfury So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 3, 2003
    Jarekfall posted about the game.pck, after all those years wondering it's just another on the disc dlc. :roll: