Retrolook at Fallout

[Odin]

The site called Groovalicious Games have taken a new look at Fallout 2 and written an article about it. Here's part of the conclusion:<blockquote>While certain aspects of the game fall very flat compared to the offerings of today (the graphics primarily, but the clunky interface is also guilty of this), the gameplay is where Fallout still shines. Few games are as well-crafted or engrossing. The setting has a lot to do with this, as there are really very few RPGs that have such a gritty feel. If I can find where the instability lies and keep the game from crashing on me so frequently, I just may see it to conclusion this time around.</blockquote>It's a nice read..
Spotted at RPGDot
Link: RetroKick - Fallout 2

 

[SuAside]

sweet

but i've got to add that i've played through FO1 1 time and through FO2 3 times this year on and Win XP pc @ 2.6ghz and i havent had the slightest crash. no special settings or tweaks were used. (both games were patched with the latest official patches)

the only obvious problem i had was with the travel in FO2 (you race around the map instead of walking around the map), which is an unavoidable issue on fast computers it seems...

 

[Claw]

I don't get why people keep complaining about the interface... clunky, how?

 

[Roshambo]

It means the kiddies who are more used to Diablo will have their brain melt from complete inability to figure out the interface. The problem of multiple containers, confusing speech options, and right-click for a menu has their poor minds in a spin.

 

[SuAside]

well, the inventory could have been designed somewhat better i think (and with it the barter system). it wasn't too userfriendly, lots and lots of useless scrolling doing on... but this does not mean i want a diablo/deusex1/etc-style inventory.

thats the only complaint i have about the UI.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

You cannot deny that the interface was rather 'heavy' in Fallout. Some simple things needed quite a few clicks to do them. I like what I read in the Van Buren FAQ about right click menus. I think that would have made quite an improvement on the current click-and-hold system.

 

[Roshambo]

True, the inventory wasn't the best, and the "stealing back from your teammates in Fo1" wasn't much better. It's still hard to see how they call the interface "clunky", when I have seen many examples of poorer ones and the interface was good. It's actually quite functional in the engine/view/control type, with some minor bad aspects that really aren't integral problems to the interface as a whole.

Inventory can be fixed in a number of ways without having to change the base interface, but the interface is still far from "clunky".

 

[APTYP]

It means the kiddies who are more used to Diablo will have their brain melt from complete inability to figure out the interface.

I thought an ideal interface is the one that's easy to understand and easy to use?

The interface could use some re-arranging and "minor" changes. I still don't understand why the fuck you had to hold down a LMB on an object to get the action menu, when everyone else's game only required a single right-click. Also, I wish there was a "fast animations" option that skipped some annoying UI-related animations like changing a weapon or opening the turn control box on combat start/end.

 

[Claw]

I thought an ideal interface is the one that's easy to understand and easy to use?.

I thought that's what Fallout's interface is. When I got back into playing Fallout after over 5 years, I could instantly access all functions without much thinking.
When I tried to play Morrowind again after about a year... oops. How do I attack? Cast spells? Change weapons? I kinda stumbled into the "character interface" with a right click, but I was far from grasping anything intuitively, and I wasn't even sure what options were available to me. Not so in Fallout. Also, the character screen in Fallout is awesome, with all stats, skills, perks etc. explained.
True, the inventory could be improved. But then the inventory was about the only thing I ever felt needed improvement. That's pretty darn good.
Btw, who'd like a a paper doll like Ultima VII Serpent Isle? I'd like an Ultima VII inventory, minus the mess inside the backpack.

 

[ericjones]

I've had very few problems playing FO2 on my P4 2.4, WinXP either. However, it would crash from time to time during loading and saving games. I was also not familiar with the quicksave option.

Being the type of person who makes a save about every 2 minutes, these errors occured very rarely (and appearently randomly). I did also experience once that my save game for some reason got corrupted, and as I always tend to save in different slots each time, it wasn't too much of a problem.

 

[Roshambo]

You cannot deny that the interface was rather 'heavy' in Fallout. Some simple things needed quite a few clicks to do them.[/quoite]

Here's your cue to explain how.

I like what I read in the Van Buren FAQ about right click menus. I think that would have made quite an improvement on the current click-and-hold system.

For starters, there already was a right-click menu of sorts, one that worked rather well in and out of of the inventory screen. It took a little bit, but aside from picking up a shitload of dropped items on the ground, it wasn't irritating in the slightest unless Ritalin is a necessary dietary supplement.

The skilldex, for how much you really needed to use the skills, wasn't that much of a problem. If you had problems with that, try using the hotkeys. F1. The revised right-click menu might have worked a bit easier for some, but when you want to do something, in the right place...well, after a few minutes, if you can't figure out how to make things go faster, then you probably have problems with ANY game at that point.

Yet it seems that everyone outside of FPS games is striving for having absolutely nothing to do with the keyboard. Heaven forbid some kids might have to figure what keys do what. Then again, we also get help requests on what buttons do what, despite the Western programming standard of using F1 as a help screen key and this being pointed out in the manual and I think the readme as well. I could be wrong about that, as I'm not sure if it is.

I thought an ideal interface is the one that's easy to understand and easy to use?

There comes a point where you just can't dumb it down even further for some people because it would become a problem of designing the game around the interface. Then it becomes a waste in development. You make the interface for the game, not the game around the interface. If people can't figure out how to find the hotkey menu, then perhaps they should give up on using their computer until they actually learn how to use it. I loathe people who expect their computer to be perfect and operate to their whims without any idea as to how it works. So if it leaves a few people in the dust, screw 'em.

I still don't understand why the fuck you had to hold down a LMB on an object to get the action menu, when everyone else's game only required a single right-click.

True, much of that was a bit of a problem, but the hotkeys did alleviate a lot of that unless you were picking up a lot of items from the ground (at that point...why?). I also like the fast right-click to switch to a combat cursor. Take a look at Derek Smart. Serious interface issues, and I'm not talking about his head being up his ass nor the unlikelihood of any sane person volunteering to work in any PR capacity around him.

Fast animations or cutting off "artistic" intros and the like should be an option, I agree, though I probably wouldn't use them.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

On the cue, things that need a lot of clicking:
- The whole left-click-hold thing. Right click to change your cursor. Left-click and hold to select the thing you wanted to do. Release mouse button. Not the most ergonomic thing devised. And no, rilatin is not on my diet.
- FO1: the steal from your buddies thing.
- The skilldex, as you said.
- Moving a lot of stuff. Ctrl/Shift-clicking would be welcome.

Good things about the interface:
- As you said, quickchanging the combat cursor.
- The athmosphere (although all that metal could be considered clunky )
- And many others...

 

[Bradylama]

If they think F2's interface is clunky their brains would explode if they tried to play Fallout. Interface design was the primary fault of that game, and designing a pc game with an intuitive interface seems to be something those Pen and Paper dorks at Troika still haven't been able to learn.

 

[APTYP]

I'd just say that overall Fallout was easy to use once you've beaten the learning curve, and be done with it.

 

[Bradylama]

It is, however, clunky to the point of tedium.

When you're actually loathe to exchange inventory with your party members, something's wrong.

 

[Roshambo]

On the cue, things that need a lot of clicking:
- The whole left-click-hold thing. Right click to change your cursor. Left-click and hold to select the thing you wanted to do. Release mouse button. Not the most ergonomic thing devised. And no, rilatin is not on my diet.

Funny, I'm still trying to see how that is a lot of clicks compared to anything else. Changing the cursor is a basic one. So is the LMB hold. In fact, you'd probably have to go through a few radial menus (because that is "en vogue" now), and that usually takes up about as much time and involvement as other methods. All you're doing is removing the thinking involvement of the player for deciding what to try there and giving them the base instructions of "we've picked out what you'll need here so you don't have to think for yourself". It's frankly insulting when I play something that feels designed for a five year-old.

- FO1: the steal from your buddies thing.

Did you have to include the Red Herring as well? That's a mechanics issue rather than an interface issue. It originated from how you were meant to be a lone wanderer with some people who decided to follow you. They weren't meant to be like the "NPCs" in Baldur's Gate.

- The skilldex, as you said.

I think I mentioned hotkeys, though a skilldex option in the LMB hold menu wouldn't be bad.

- Moving a lot of stuff. Ctrl/Shift-clicking would be welcome.

That I would agree with, as sometimes it was annoying to move a stack and have to put in the quantity I want moved, but not that troublesome. I kept things neatly in containers, not on the floor, so that removed the excessive need to use the LMB menu.

Interface design was the primary fault of that game, and designing a pc game with an intuitive interface seems to be something those Pen and Paper dorks at Troika still haven't been able to learn.

The true irony is that part of the interface involved the device you just raped to post that. Well, unless you count the time they also used radial context menues.

By a lot of the logic have tried in this, it would seem that since Spider-Man 2 for the PC is infinitely more easy to use and has more intuitive controls (including telling you where to web swing), therefore it has a far better interface than the console versions.

Sorry, but...no. No way in hell.

When you're actually loathe to exchange inventory with your party members, something's wrong.

They are NPCs, not party characters, and were designed that way originally, Chuckles. It was for Fallout 2 that they decided to turn their roles into "packmules". That's not a good gameplay mechanic if you want to have any believability in them being NPCs. Please note that I do not mean the Inbred Engine definition of NPCs.

 

[Role-Player]

Take a look at Derek Smart. Serious interface issues, and I'm not talking about his head being up his ass nor the unlikelihood of any sane person volunteering to work in any PR capacity around him.

Those aren't interface issues, those are scripts hardcoded into the engine

 

[Francisco M L S G S]

I'd just say that overall Fallout was easy to use once you've beaten the learning curve, and be done with it.

That goes for every game with or without a bad interface. As soon as you familiarize yourself with the interface, everything becomes easy and accessible. Plus, if you enjoy the game, you forget about the interface, whether it is good or bad.

 

[Bradylama]

They are NPCs, not party characters, and were designed that way originally, Chuckles. It was for Fallout 2 that they decided to turn their roles into "packmules". That's not a good gameplay mechanic if you want to have any believability in them being NPCs. Please note that I do not mean the Inbred Engine definition of NPCs.

While I recognize the roleplaying aspects of it, it's not exactly fun. NPCs were in short and insignificant supply anyways. Nobody talks about Fallout's horrid AI, it seems, which makes the use of burst weapons absolutely pointless. And since the best NPC you get is Dogmeat, it's best to use single-shot weapons while he goes to work on people's knees.

Besides, they chose to follow YOU in the first place. Being the leader, you shouldn't have to barter back for items that you gave them to use. Giving them powerful weapons is assuming the premise that you're going to take them back and sell them in order to acquire more powerful weapons for the NPC to use. The NPC should be aware of this, and let you take back the items that YOU acquired, since he or she will benefit. A simple "Give me your weapon," or, "Give me your ammo," or armor, etc. diologue options could have circumvented this problem and preserved the roleplaying system. This would give more importance to Charisma and a character that assumes a diplomatic leader role, as your high speech and charisma should make it easier to convince stubborn party members to give you their stuff.

The true irony is that part of the interface involved the device you just raped to post that. Well, unless you count the time they also used radial context menues.

By a lot of the logic have tried in this, it would seem that since Spider-Man 2 for the PC is infinitely more easy to use and has more intuitive controls (including telling you where to web swing), therefore it has a far better interface than the console versions.

Sorry, but...no. No way in hell.

Are you even talking about the same thing? The Fallout interface let you do stuff, I'm not denying that. It was, however, a pain to use, and could have used a little polish.

 

[Roshambo]

While I recognize the roleplaying aspects of it, it's not exactly fun. NPCs were in short and insignificant supply anyways.

Who said that stealing items back from the NPC you gave them to was supposed to be fun?

As I said before, they probably weren't meant as packmules, otherwise they would have been made like that.

Nobody talks about Fallout's horrid AI, it seems, which makes the use of burst weapons absolutely pointless.

Irrelevant, and let's not forget that it IS stupid to give some people burst weapons, and that some NPCs are meant to suck.

Besides, they chose to follow YOU in the first place. Being the leader, you shouldn't have to barter back for items that you gave them to use.

Apparently, you've been living in video games too long. Someone decides to back you in your journeys and put their life and risk, and they're now expected to be your bitch, just because they joined you?

I'm sorry, but the real world doesn't work like that. Also, in a post-apocalyptic environment, it's pretty clear that if you give someone something, it's going to be pretty damn hard to convince them to give it back. Especially when they are following you around for no other discernable purpose than you're a great guy or something. You don't even pay NPCs or give them any real reason why they should be bullet sponges, so I really don't see why you're bitching about how they were designed.

The NPC should be aware of this, and let you take back the items that YOU acquired, since he or she will benefit. A simple "Give me your weapon," or, "Give me your ammo," or armor, etc. diologue options could have circumvented this problem and preserved the roleplaying system. This would give more importance to Charisma and a character that assumes a diplomatic leader role, as your high speech and charisma should make it easier to convince stubborn party members to give you their stuff.

It is funny you go into this, when you earlier were basically all for excusing a transition into Baldur's Gate-style "NPCs" This makes a great deal more sense than the rest.

Are you even talking about the same thing?

Parallel. Look it up sometime if you don't understand the concept. Just because a game might play a bit "easier" because of the interface style, that doesn't mean it is good for the game or the presentation. When you start cutting corners for the Lowest Common Denominator, you really need to ask yourself why you're wasting your time.

The Fallout interface let you do stuff, I'm not denying that. It was, however, a pain to use, and could have used a little polish.

I really don't see how it is a pain to use it if you have bothered figuring out how to use it, and it is to the point of being intuitive. That does assume you do use hotkeys. But that assumes that the player has the mental capacity to play outside of every other generic interface style in other games, and then there's the design problems of when the games are developed around the interface (i.e. Baldur's Gate).