Saddam Hussein captured
- Thread starter welsh
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Paladin Solo
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Comprehend what I said by saying they are not human because they don't respect human life. So, then by killing them, we do humanity good because they care nothing for human life. I'd be happy if you try and stop and analyze what I said, instead of starting some blind flame fest. And I've never read Mein Kampf, but thanks for the advice. Is there a rule saying Mohrg can't do what he just did with my quote?
*Sigh*
Ok. This is the THIRD fucking time it will be pointed out to you.
Hokay. Now look.
An interesting barrier between humans and animals, based on respecting life. However, the basic difference between animals and humans is the capacity of rational thought, which, paradoxally, is unknown to many humans. Pol Pot was a human being. What makes him a monster, a sonuvabitch, is the fact that he *could* respect human life but didnt, he chose not to. He didnt mutate into a supermutant terrorist afterwards. He was still human.
Weell. Guess what? Those guys " terrroristssss" think the same way! That s why they don t have any respect for human life!
OR are you trying to tell me that torture and executions (which were suggested by you) IS respecting life?
If you answer yes, accoriding to your logic, you should go ahead and kill yourself.
Ok. This is the THIRD fucking time it will be pointed out to you.
Hokay. Now look.
An interesting barrier between humans and animals, based on respecting life. However, the basic difference between animals and humans is the capacity of rational thought, which, paradoxally, is unknown to many humans. Pol Pot was a human being. What makes him a monster, a sonuvabitch, is the fact that he *could* respect human life but didnt, he chose not to. He didnt mutate into a supermutant terrorist afterwards. He was still human.
Weell. Guess what? Those guys " terrroristssss" think the same way! That s why they don t have any respect for human life!
OR are you trying to tell me that torture and executions (which were suggested by you) IS respecting life?
If you answer yes, accoriding to your logic, you should go ahead and kill yourself.
Wooz is correct.
however Wooz.. If he doesnt get it this time... Dont bother to repeat it a 4th... Narrowmindedness can only see what it wants to.
If he's hell-bent on seeing terrorists as sub-human. Fuck it. i say let him. After all, as they say.. "Ignorance is it's own hell."
however Wooz.. If he doesnt get it this time... Dont bother to repeat it a 4th... Narrowmindedness can only see what it wants to.
If he's hell-bent on seeing terrorists as sub-human. Fuck it. i say let him. After all, as they say.. "Ignorance is it's own hell."
Well, i tried to put it as simple as possible for maximum comprehension this last time.
Anyways methinks he's pretty young and naive, I just pointed out the flaws of a specific kind of mutagenous ignorance, that twitches youngsters inside, turning them into beasts
'
Anyways methinks he's pretty young and naive, I just pointed out the flaws of a specific kind of mutagenous ignorance, that twitches youngsters inside, turning them into beasts
'
welsh
Junkmaster
Paladin Solo said:
After World War 2, this was the idea of the Russians. The Brits were pretty apathetic about war crimes trials, but it was the Americans, especially Justice Jackson of the Supreme Court, that pushed the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunals, which also gave us a definition of what are international crimes.
So you really want to be compared to Stalin on this?
When the US did streamline these procedures to convict war criminals in Asia- especially Yamashita in the Philippines and other Japanese war criminals, the trials were called "Victor's Justice" which is no real justice at all.
Sir Kalthorine
First time out of the vault
While on a holiday in the Middle East in 1998, Saba, an Arabic friend of mine (I am a stereotypical fish-out-of-water English tourist, btw), took me to the top of Jabel Quruntul (the "Mountain of Temptation" where it is believed the Bible indicates Jesus spent 40 days and nights fasting and meditating during his Temptation by Satan). I can't remember how the conversation got round to the topic, but we started talking about how Arabs view the West, and the USA in particular. Saba just shrugged and said something I found quite surprising at the time. I can't remember his exact words, but they were something like "Most Arabs don't really care about the USA, despite what most of the West think. We are a patient people and we can wait."
I asked him "Wait for what?", and he just pointed down at the town of Jericho which was about half a kilometre or so away. I'll try and paraphrase what Saba said to the best of my recollection:
"Jericho is the oldest City in the world. Arab civilisation dates back almost 10,000 years here. There have been Arabs here in one form or another for one hundred times longer than the USA has been a world power and 200 times longer than the state of Israel has existed. Ancient Greece rose and fell, the Roman Empire rose and fell, and Arab civilisation survived. We have survived Crusades, the Black Death, the rise of Islam, two world wars and the founding of Israel and its subjugation of its Arab neighbours using guns with "made in America" stamped on them. If the USA believes in its supreme arrogance that just because it can flex its muscles now, the same will be true in a hundred years, then it does not know World history. Superpowers come and go, but we will endure. We can wait, our time will come. The USA's economy is already overstretched, and the time will come soon when it can no longer afford - politically or otherwise - to support Israel any longer. And we will be waiting, however long that takes, to take back what has always been ours and always will be. The best thing that the USA can do for its own long term future is to understand this, and prepare itself for the time it needs more friends in the world than enemies."
Now I remember disagreeing with a lot of that at the time, and I still take exception to quite a lot of it. But I just felt it would help in the middle of all the pro- and anti- USA sentiment flying around following the events in Iraq over the last twelve months or so to get a wholly different perspective on the whole issue. It certainly gave me pause at the time...
I asked him "Wait for what?", and he just pointed down at the town of Jericho which was about half a kilometre or so away. I'll try and paraphrase what Saba said to the best of my recollection:
"Jericho is the oldest City in the world. Arab civilisation dates back almost 10,000 years here. There have been Arabs here in one form or another for one hundred times longer than the USA has been a world power and 200 times longer than the state of Israel has existed. Ancient Greece rose and fell, the Roman Empire rose and fell, and Arab civilisation survived. We have survived Crusades, the Black Death, the rise of Islam, two world wars and the founding of Israel and its subjugation of its Arab neighbours using guns with "made in America" stamped on them. If the USA believes in its supreme arrogance that just because it can flex its muscles now, the same will be true in a hundred years, then it does not know World history. Superpowers come and go, but we will endure. We can wait, our time will come. The USA's economy is already overstretched, and the time will come soon when it can no longer afford - politically or otherwise - to support Israel any longer. And we will be waiting, however long that takes, to take back what has always been ours and always will be. The best thing that the USA can do for its own long term future is to understand this, and prepare itself for the time it needs more friends in the world than enemies."
Now I remember disagreeing with a lot of that at the time, and I still take exception to quite a lot of it. But I just felt it would help in the middle of all the pro- and anti- USA sentiment flying around following the events in Iraq over the last twelve months or so to get a wholly different perspective on the whole issue. It certainly gave me pause at the time...
Paladin Solo
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
That is pretty deep. Nice way of looking at it. But in reality, most civilizations survive, not just the Arabs. But they have been around the longest right? Although, I like what your friend said. I don't agree with a few things, but for the most part, I agree. We will come and go, as a country of course, but we will survive as a people. I have often sat by myself, daydreaming, about many things, and for some reason, end up thinking how America's end as a power and nation will come. It would be nice if it could last until the end of the world, but who can say for sure whether it will or won't? Anyhow, send your friend my regards. He is pretty insightful. Oh and Welsh, you must try and take into consideration of who was charged, and what Japan had done throughout the war not only to America. Plus, they treat prisoners like shit, and killed many civilians (Rape of Nanking anyone?).
welsh
Junkmaster
Paladin Solo said:
No, the Japanese were right sons-a-bitches when it came to treating POWs and especially the Chinese.
But if they didn't deserve fair treatment before the court, than what you really are saying is that the US took out its revenge against the Japanese through the false application of justice.
There is a difference between justice and revenge.
For example, the argument that Yamashita makes in the Philippines is, in part, that he couldn't control his men and therefore could not be responsible for what his men did when the Americans invaded. The evidence was that the Americans had done so much damage to his command and control that he could no longer maintain any semblance of order. His liability for the atrocities against the Filipinos was therefore vicarious as a principle is vicariously liable for the acts of his agent. Yamashita was merely saying he can't be held criminally responsible for the acts of others which he could not control.
Well fine. But part of the politics were that MacArthur wanted to hang him, desperately. The Supreme COurt would not hear the appeal because it was a military tribunal- bullshit. Even the military is under the law of the land. Yamashita's argument fell and he got strung up.
Did he deserve it? Yes. He was a right bastard and did lots of nasty things
Did he deserve fair justice- Yes, he deserved a fair trial, and then a fair hanging.
Did he get it- no.
I think it's Foucault who said that you can tell about the humanity of a society by how it treats it's prisoners.
Do you want to be a member of a country in which the people seek out revenge through the facade of justice, or seek real justice through the administration of fair judicial preceedings.
Now think about that carefully. For it's not only a question of how you feel about yourself, but how others think of you and what you did.
Being a leader is not just about having all the muscle to push your weight around as you want to. It's also about setting an example and gaining the legitimacy of other states to recognize your position as leader.
There is a pay off in that. The leader that can persuade others to follow where it leads is usually stronger than the one that must do so by coercion. Why, because it takes less effort to lead by persuasion- you just need to be doing the right thing.
There is an old Chinese idea- the best leaders lead by example, not by force. There is also a common belief that the resort to force by a leader reveals the bankrupcy of its legitimacy and power to convince.
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Thats full of shit.
He is not even an origional Arab. His ancestors spoke a semetic language, but in all likelyhood his ancestor's language a thousand years ago (be it Coptic, Hellanic-Syriaic or whatever) was something comparable as Welsh is to Danish, nothing like Arabic. Cultures change.
Also, this shows a pretty obvious anti-Jewish, anti-Western slant that is also full of shit.
He is not even an origional Arab. His ancestors spoke a semetic language, but in all likelyhood his ancestor's language a thousand years ago (be it Coptic, Hellanic-Syriaic or whatever) was something comparable as Welsh is to Danish, nothing like Arabic. Cultures change.
Also, this shows a pretty obvious anti-Jewish, anti-Western slant that is also full of shit.
Paladin Solo
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Welsh, those men were under his command. As an officer, he has to take responsibilty for them. That is what makes him an officer. If a bunch of Americans went rampant and killed many innocent civilians and mistreated soldiers like they were slaves, sometimes worse, than the officer would be responsible. He couldn't have done nothing? How long did the Japs commit thier crimes? Until the war was over. The nazis said the same thing about killing the jews, don't hear your complaints on them. They said they were simple soldiers, they didn't know, they thought they were getting showers then disappeared into thin air. Riiiight, let's believe them and show them sympathy! (Sarcasm)
I also hope you aren't serious about saying the Japs were right.
I also hope you aren't serious about saying the Japs were right.
CCR: So? Language changes-yes. Everything changes. The point made there was that the civilization has eventually survived. It has changed, but it has survived.
The other point made was that the USA is a world power, and that it will ultimately fall. And it will, undoubtedly. It will continue to survive, but not as a world power, at some point. Why? Simple, it's impossible for a country to always be the best. At some point, they will be bested. Never has a world power just remained in power indefinately, every single world power stopped being one at some point.
And it isn't neccessarily anti-Jewish, but at least anti-Israel. Although it is probable that is partially anti-semetic, anti_Israel is not immediately anti-Jewish.
ONe thing I have to say on this, was that there was a documentary on Dutch TV recently about Israel and mainly the border patrols and border guards. It was....weird. The troops said things like "Jews are the best." and "Fucking Palestinians" and a lot of other basically discriminating things.
Solo: Bull. If an officer has no influence on what his men are doing, it is impossible to hold him RESPONSIBLE for it. He could be legally responsible for his men, but he cannot be held responsible for what they are doing if he cannot do anything about it. IN other words, he did not cause those things to happen.
What's more, the last part about Germany is also partially silly. The fact is that if you did not WANT to know, you did not HAVE to know. There were all kinds of nifty little stories made up by the Nazis about what happened. What's more, if things happened with one country, they didn't necessarily happen with the other.
One more thing I'd like to throw in here, just for fun. Recently I went on an excursion to the WW2 resistance museum in Amsterdam(with a nice thing about the Serbian OTPOR-interesting, that). And while there, I heard a different class from a different class being explained by their teacher that the Americans threw A-bombs, and that they were fighting the Japanese. That ended like this:
Girl: "So the Japanese were fighting the Americans?"
Teacher: "Yes."
Girl:"So the Japanese are evil?"
That shocked me....
The other point made was that the USA is a world power, and that it will ultimately fall. And it will, undoubtedly. It will continue to survive, but not as a world power, at some point. Why? Simple, it's impossible for a country to always be the best. At some point, they will be bested. Never has a world power just remained in power indefinately, every single world power stopped being one at some point.
And it isn't neccessarily anti-Jewish, but at least anti-Israel. Although it is probable that is partially anti-semetic, anti_Israel is not immediately anti-Jewish.
ONe thing I have to say on this, was that there was a documentary on Dutch TV recently about Israel and mainly the border patrols and border guards. It was....weird. The troops said things like "Jews are the best." and "Fucking Palestinians" and a lot of other basically discriminating things.
Solo: Bull. If an officer has no influence on what his men are doing, it is impossible to hold him RESPONSIBLE for it. He could be legally responsible for his men, but he cannot be held responsible for what they are doing if he cannot do anything about it. IN other words, he did not cause those things to happen.
What's more, the last part about Germany is also partially silly. The fact is that if you did not WANT to know, you did not HAVE to know. There were all kinds of nifty little stories made up by the Nazis about what happened. What's more, if things happened with one country, they didn't necessarily happen with the other.
One more thing I'd like to throw in here, just for fun. Recently I went on an excursion to the WW2 resistance museum in Amsterdam(with a nice thing about the Serbian OTPOR-interesting, that). And while there, I heard a different class from a different class being explained by their teacher that the Americans threw A-bombs, and that they were fighting the Japanese. That ended like this:
Girl: "So the Japanese were fighting the Americans?"
Teacher: "Yes."
Girl:"So the Japanese are evil?"
That shocked me....
welsh
Junkmaster
Paladin Solo said:
PS- no, that is not what I was saying. In fact I was pretty clear that I thought Yamashita should have been hung up, based on the penalties of the time.
I would also agree that an officer is responsible for assuring that his men don't violate the laws of war. That is an idea we take for granted today (and why US officers often train their soldiers on the rules of war before a battle). But in 1945 that idea was not yet developed. SO you are trying a person for something that was not yet a crime.
But you have missed my point. Yamashita had plenty on his record for being punished.
But what is the point of giving punishment after a facade of justice. Better to give the person a fair trial and then get to the truth.
A trial should be about the pursuit of truth and justice, not merely seeking revenge. For if it's just revenge, the world will condemn you for not carrying out fair process of law.
Point- one needs to exercise fair process of law if one is to get respect for the way in which one complies with the law.
The US is many things, but one of the best things about it, is that we have a system of fair governing law. That means everyone is entitled to fair process. Everyone should include the most terrible people, for fair process not only protects all people, but the system of law itself and restrains the abuses of the state. It also gives the US the reputation of being a state that values law over revenge, and that we are a people ruled by law and not just passions.
The problem with the trials against the Japanese wasn't that they got hung, or that they didn't have it. It was that the process of exercising that justice looked, to many, to be a facade, because we weren't fair. That's called victor's justice, and victor's justice is no justice.
Sander said:
I can imagine very few events cataclysmic enough to completely destroy any group of people. Thus, if a culture can be completely different than an earlier culture and still be the 'same,' then I'd imagine quite a few cultures can be said to have survived for many thousands of years. CCR is right, that just seems like ethnocentrism to me.
welsh
Junkmaster
If Saddam gets tried it will be one heck of a case, a precedent in international law. I am curious to hear what his defenses will be.
Saddam's alleged crimes
Catalogue of evil
Dec 18th 2003
From The Economist print edition
Some of what he may be tried for
•Iran-Iraq war 1980-88: use of chemical weapons and other war crimes, including the summary execution of thousands of Iranian prisoners-of-war.
•The “Anfal” campaign against Iraqi Kurds in 1988, during which poison gas was used on cities. Some 100,000 civilians were killed, more than 4,000 villages were destroyed and nearly 1m people were displaced.
•Kuwait war 1990-91: crimes against humanity and war crimes.
•Massacre of some 30,000 Kurds and Shia Muslims in northern and southern Iraq, who rebelled after Saddam was expelled from Kuwait.
•Persecution of the Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq, including mass killings, expulsions, and the draining and poisoning of the marshes.
•Ethnic cleansing of “Persians” and other non-Arabs in northern Iraq.
•Unlawful killings, imprisonment, torture, rape, beatings, forced displacement and “disappearances”. In all, an estimated 300,000 suspected political opponents were slaughtered during Saddam Hussein's 24 years in power. This does not include the much larger number who died as a result of his invasions of Iran and Kuwait.
Saddam's alleged crimes
Catalogue of evil
Dec 18th 2003
From The Economist print edition
Some of what he may be tried for
•Iran-Iraq war 1980-88: use of chemical weapons and other war crimes, including the summary execution of thousands of Iranian prisoners-of-war.
•The “Anfal” campaign against Iraqi Kurds in 1988, during which poison gas was used on cities. Some 100,000 civilians were killed, more than 4,000 villages were destroyed and nearly 1m people were displaced.
•Kuwait war 1990-91: crimes against humanity and war crimes.
•Massacre of some 30,000 Kurds and Shia Muslims in northern and southern Iraq, who rebelled after Saddam was expelled from Kuwait.
•Persecution of the Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq, including mass killings, expulsions, and the draining and poisoning of the marshes.
•Ethnic cleansing of “Persians” and other non-Arabs in northern Iraq.
•Unlawful killings, imprisonment, torture, rape, beatings, forced displacement and “disappearances”. In all, an estimated 300,000 suspected political opponents were slaughtered during Saddam Hussein's 24 years in power. This does not include the much larger number who died as a result of his invasions of Iran and Kuwait.
Paladin solo just how old are you? What the fuck are you thinking? The world is not black and white as not all people in guatanamo are terrorist, they have realesed several. But because you don`t know anyone of them it does not matter weather it is inocents who is killed heh? Respect life? just as the pilots that bomb children in afghanistan respect lifes? It is just a matter of what lifes they respect. The people who are in guatanamo bay maybe they just fight the evil people that bomb children in their areas or weddings.
Or maybe they fight the people that put the northern alliance, a group of rapist and killers who are described as worse than taliban, and who is friends of the US. Maybe they are fighting the people that removed taliban and reinstated caos as rulers in afghanistan.
But you don`t see this? Try pulling your head out your arse and get info yourself instead of biased crap from cox news. Try to study history, you would understand alot.
Or maybe they fight the people that put the northern alliance, a group of rapist and killers who are described as worse than taliban, and who is friends of the US. Maybe they are fighting the people that removed taliban and reinstated caos as rulers in afghanistan.
But you don`t see this? Try pulling your head out your arse and get info yourself instead of biased crap from cox news. Try to study history, you would understand alot.
OnTheBounce
Still Mildly Glowing
welsh
Junkmaster
Exactly- This is going to be some trial.
Not just for the facts of US involvement in Iraq prior to Gulf War 1. There are also serious issues that the US will have to addres- (1) thou shalt not attack another state with military force.
(2) the internal affairs of other states is solely left for the soveriegn governance of that state...
Even during the Nuremburg Tribunals there were issues. The Russians didn't dig the whole, waging aggressive war is a violation of international law (because they had to account for invading Poland and Finland), and even the genocide against German jews was off the books as a matter of internal German policy.
This will be an interesting trial to say the least.
Not just for the facts of US involvement in Iraq prior to Gulf War 1. There are also serious issues that the US will have to addres- (1) thou shalt not attack another state with military force.
(2) the internal affairs of other states is solely left for the soveriegn governance of that state...
Even during the Nuremburg Tribunals there were issues. The Russians didn't dig the whole, waging aggressive war is a violation of international law (because they had to account for invading Poland and Finland), and even the genocide against German jews was off the books as a matter of internal German policy.
This will be an interesting trial to say the least.
Anecdote about the Nuremberg trials:
Apparently the Russian judge had said, after several toasts of the other judges, in a toast "May we all hang them"(paraphrased). That's the kind of attitude you would rather NOT have on a trial.
Loxley: Please try to refrain from just calling PS names, it won't work. Just counter his arguments....
Brilliant defense, by the way.
Apparently the Russian judge had said, after several toasts of the other judges, in a toast "May we all hang them"(paraphrased). That's the kind of attitude you would rather NOT have on a trial.
Loxley: Please try to refrain from just calling PS names, it won't work. Just counter his arguments....
Brilliant defense, by the way.