Scores dead as Israel bombs Gaza

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Sander said:
Aside from the fact that I used 'the terrorist' and not 'one of the terrorists' purposefully, Hamas isn't called a terrorist group because they aren't a nation. They're called a terrorist group because they use terror as a weapon, and purposefully target civilians. Which is not something you can honestly accuse Israel of doing. In that sense, Israel certainly isn't a terrorist nation, even though it is an aggressor.
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True, Israel does not intentionally target civilians, but it comes almost close to using terror as a weapon. But it does targe civilians indiscriminately when it blockades food, oil, supplies, energy, medical aid and so on, causing distress, malnutrition, anger, terror and so on. Is this not a form of mass punishment?

Sander said:
Why do people always say that it's just semantics, as if the meaning of what you are saying isn't important?
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Probably so as to not lose focus on the main argument, something I've seen happen a lot. I agree with you, its is important to define the terms you are discussing, as long as dont get bogged down by them.

Sander said:
You're also completely skipping the British mandate and the support of both the League of Nations and later the United Nations for a Jewish State.
The Arabs never accepted this situation, and refused to adhere to the UN decision.
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Yeah, the British, Americans and the U.N dropped the ball on that one, which is why I think we have a responsability to fix it. We screwed it up, its also our responsability.
 
Me? I don't hate, much :P

Ok in all seriousness, it saddens me more to see people who in all honesty hate someone because of race, creed, or color.

I shoot for balance quite often because a lot of times there isn't someone that at least tries to see both sides of the coin, especially on overwhelmingly pro or con topics like Native Americans, Woman's Rights, and all those other juicy things that Maph's gotten into a tizzy over with me :P

I pity the civilians caught up in this, and personally I don't believe in Josef Stalin's words when he says that the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic.

There is no way I could feel more for a million than I could for one, but the feeling is still there, it's still a tragedy that it happened, and to just waive it away saying 'well they hit first' is like saying "Oh I just brutally beat this man with a cudgel because he flicked me in the nose, but that's ok because he struck first!"

I am not so naive that I believe war should be fought without civilian casualties, but the Gaza strip bombings and now military assaults resulting in hundreds dead and thousands wounded, without proper medical care many more people are going to die from easily curable ailments.

The middle east really needs to grow up, because this is starting to get rediculous, they aren't winning anything, they're only drawing out wars of attrition that they cannot win, simply to kill off as many as inhumanly possible, and I say inhumanly because they do it at the cost of their own lives.

There are no last stands, there's no abolition, there's no peace, it's just everyone blowing everyone else to bits out there and odds are it's not going to end for many years to come, hell it's been going on since WW1!

The organized countries in the area (meaning the ones that are not despot controlled and anarchy ridden) need to set an example, perhaps that is why Israel is doing this, but I think it's the wrong example to set that's only going to breed further hatred in the end.

The problem is, Israel will have a hard time proving that it is truly a sovereign country, and not just suckling on the American and British teats, as I figure that most of the hatred against America and Britain is directed at Israel because they're close at hand.

It was probably the worst acts of history to dissolve the Ottoman Empire, as they were really the last people who had a respectable level of control over that region, and hopefully there will be someone in the future who can finally unify, or at least bring that region back from anarchy that's lasted almost a century now...
 
Mord_Sith said:
personally I don't believe in Josef Stalin's words when he says that the death of one man is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic.

There is no way I could feel more for a million than I could for one, but the feeling is still there, it's still a tragedy that it happened
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I think you may have misinterpreted what Stalin was saying.

Thats exactly the point, he not saying the deaths of millions aren't a tragedy, he is just saying they become numbers. You feel much more for the death of say, a close person, than you do for 1000 people who die in a far away land.

Sander said:
They're called a terrorist group because they use terror as a weapon, and purposefully target civilians. Which is not something you can honestly accuse Israel of doing. In that sense, Israel certainly isn't a terrorist nation, even though it is an aggressor.
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EDIT: ''Israeli air strike on U.N run school kills 40''

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7814054.stm

I take back what I said, Israel DOES deliberately target civillians.
 
Ah this thread has grown, sorry I have not been online to respond. Been busy and going to a funeral today so the interwebz has not been a big point of interest for me lately.

Once I get home I will go back the last couple of pages and respond to anything I missed.



fedaykin said:
B-b-but there were weapons caches inside! Trust me!
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Nah I would not go with weapon caches. If I was a gambling man I would say the militants were hiding in the school using them for cover.

Silly really, when will those pesky people learn that Israel does not give a damn what you use for cover? If you fire at them they are going to take you out.

Or of course it could have just been a shell went astray in a densely populated civilian area. No one here knows enough about the particular incident to be 100% sure.

That includes me.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/0...from-un-school-in-northern-gaza-israelis-say/

GAZA CITY, Gaza (CNN) — "The Israeli military said Hamas militants
positioned in a U.N. school in northern Gaza fired mortars shells at Israeli
forces on Tuesday, prompting Israeli forces to return fire, according to its
initial investigation into the incident."

The Israeli military said, “This is not the first time that Hamas has
fired mortars and rockets from schools as was proven before in footage taken by
drones."


Ok quite easily that could just be Israel covering its tracks. I am not even going to completely buy it yet.
However, can you prove to me with multiple credible sources that there were not militants firing at Israeli forces from that school?

Neither of us can say for sure there were or were not people in that school firing mortars on Israel.
I suppose you could make a very valid defense that if anything they should have used ground forces to clear the school.
 
Bal-Sagoth said:
I suppose you could make a very valid defense that if anything they should have used ground forces to clear the school.
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Hmmn, that is exactly what I was going to say. If Israel is putting all this effort into mobilising thousands of reservists and arming them to the teeth with high-tech military and equipment why is it so reluctant to use them when it comes to areas where *clearly* an air strike would result in casualties?
 
Bal-Sagoth said:
Nah I would not go with weapon caches. If I was a gambling man I would say the militants were hiding in the school using them for cover.
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Yeah. Damn those children for using a school as shelter.
Bal-Sagoth said:
Silly really, when will those pesky people learn that Israel does not give a damn what you use for cover? If you fire at them they are going to take you out.
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Pesky people? (no, I'm not asking for a dictionary definition)
 
Chancellor Kremlin said:
Bal-Sagoth said:
I suppose you could make a very valid defense that if anything they should have used ground forces to clear the school.
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Hmmn, that is exactly what I was going to say. If Israel is putting all this effort into mobilising thousands of reservists and arming them to the teeth with high-tech military and equipment why is it so reluctant to use them when it comes to areas where *clearly* an air strike would result in casualties?
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A bullet from a 20 year old assault rifle will kill just as easily as the state of the art weapons Israel uses.
Israel may inflict more causalities and not suffer as many and that is in large part due to technology and equipment.

Regardless of that however there are always risk of putting boots on the ground. As bad as it sounds I will have to go with they cared more about minimizing Israeli causalities than saving civilian life.

I am still not saying they directly targeted civilians. Just that they do not care who gets hurt in the process of the military operation.



fedaykin said:
Yeah. Damn those children for using a school as shelter.
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No....

If anything, damn those militants for firing on Israeli troops while in the vicinity of school children.


fedaykin said:
Pesky people? (no, I'm not asking for a dictionary definition)
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To bad your getting one anyway!


pes·ky (pěs'kē) Pronunciation Key
adj. pes·ki·er, pes·ki·est Informal
Troublesome; annoying: a pesky mosquito.


Yes pesky, If it is true I would say militants hiding in a school launching mortars at you and thinking they can get away with it because they are in the vicinity of civilians is "troublesome" at best.

Of course that all depends on if there really were militants in the school firing mortars.
You cannot prove they were not there and I cannot prove they were there.
 
Bal-Sagoth said:
A bullet from a 20 year old assault rifle will kill just as easily as the state of the art weapons Israel uses.
Israel may inflict more causalities and not suffer as many and that is in large part due to technology and equipment.

Regardless of that however there are always risk of putting boots on the ground. As bad as it sounds I will have to go with they cared more about minimizing Israeli causalities than saving civilian life.

I am still not saying they directly targeted civilians. Just that they do not care who gets hurt in the process of the military operation.
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That really pisses me off about modern 'western' armies these days. They can't bear to take casualties. An example is the Americans in Somalia. As soon as a couple of rangers died they hauled ass. Thats ridiculous. Fair enough, give me the 'the life of a somali is not worth the life of a soldier' excuse, but in Israel this is different.

If you are in the army, you are there to defend your country when it needs you and are in full knowledge of the danger you may be put in. Now go do your job, preferably kill the enemy combatant instead, but if need be, take a bullet.

The west has become too sensitive to war. Look at the Russians. They don't give a shit. Perhaps too far down the other extreme, but for a war to be sucessfuly waged something inbetween needs to be achieved.

So when it comes to Israel, who says they are not targeting civilians, but there is a high chance an air strike will kill both the enemy and civilians, they should have the good sense to send in their famed special forces or the regular army. If they do not want to lose their precious soldiers why the hell are they in Gaza anyway? Were the strikes not enough? You can't have both military on the ground, and no casualties. This is something many governments are yet to understand.
Bal-Sagoth said:
Chancellor Kremlin said:
Pesky people? (no, I'm not asking for a dictionary definition)
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To bad your getting one anyway!

pes·ky (pěs'kē) Pronunciation Key
adj. pes·ki·er, pes·ki·est Informal
Troublesome; annoying: a pesky mosquito.
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Don't misquote me, I didn't write that :roll:
 
Chancellor Kremlin said:
The west has become too sensitive to war....
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I agree with you that if you serve in the military you should be fully prepared to give your life for your country. Israel has compulsory military service but I have never heard of many people who are not willing to serve in the IDF.

Regardless I still think it goes along the lines of "Why send in soldiers when our bombs can do it?".
Maybe in this particular incident the ground forces were busy somewhere else so they figured they would just shoot a missile at the building and be done with it.




Chancellor Kremlin said:
Don't misquote me, I didn't write that :roll:
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That was for fedaykin below you, not sure why it did that. :lol:
 
^^ Since I am in the US Army I feel obliged to defend my country. The troops aren't the ones who are afraid to do their job. It's usually the politicians and civilians that get butt hurt. Just wanna get that straight.
Most troops I know like going to Iraq; not because of the whole "defending freedom" nonsense, but because of the massive pay increase. I furnished my whole house with my Iraq money. :D

The "why send troops when our bombs can do it?" argument is very much true.

As far as Somalia goes, the troops were severely outnumbered, thus the retreat. The US could have bombed the fuck out of the whole place for days on end, but that would accomplish very little since the main goal was to evacuate the embassy.

And what makes you think the Israeli Special Forces aren't already there? Because they didn't announce it?
 
TorontRayne said:
^^ Since I am in the US Army I feel obliged to defend my country. The troops aren't the ones who are afraid to do their job. It's usually the politicians and civilians that get butt hurt. Just wanna get that straight.
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I agree with you on that part. Its also the media, which instantly mass broadcasts any reports of casualties on their side, plus putting civillian pressure because ''omg our troops are dying''. Erh, hello, its a war!?

TorontRayne said:
As far as Somalia goes, the troops were severely outnumbered, thus the retreat. The US could have bombed the fuck out of the whole place for days on end, but that would accomplish very little since the main goal was to evacuate the embassy.

And what makes you think the Israeli Special Forces aren't already there? Because they didn't announce it?
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Can you think of solutions with anything other than bombs? At least im glad you agree it would have accomplished little, but for different reasons. Weren't they there to attempt to bring an end to the genocide by capturing some key leaders and aiding the UN in the distribution of food? And as soon as they got some casualties it was like ''Fuck this the U.N can stay and sort out the rest'' ???

As for Special Forces, I didn't say they weren't already in the country, I said that was a good opportunity to put them to use to avoid collateral damage, or just use regular forces.

Like I said before, the west has this 'bomb addiction' which saves 5 troops in the short term but kills 200 in the long run. See the bigger picture folks.
 
^^ Yes I can think of other solutions, but instead of being ambushed by insane amounts of people with reinforcements taking to long to get there, they should have used air support to handle the situation. Especially since their was a aircraft carrier not to far away. I realize they did use air support to a certain extent, but not nearly enough.

No bombs don't handle everything. I'm not the typical "Nuke em all" kind of American. I just think in a situation like that, air support should have been used more frequently. I just feel like if you have air capabilities and it can resolve a situation easier, it should be used. Israel/Gaza's case is much different though. Israel could be using much smaller bombs, but I don't think they care much.
 
TorontRayne said:
No bombs don't handle everything. I'm not the typical "Nuke em all" kind of American. I just think in a situation like that, air support should have been used more frequently. I just feel like if you have air capabilities and it can resolve a situation easier, it should be used. Israel/Gaza's case is much different though. Israel could be using much smaller bombs, but I don't think they care much.
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At least you are willing to acknowledge that. Indeed they do not give a shit. Especially when they move like 100 people into a building, then procede to shell that same building. Something like 40 people died.

Intentional? Gross breakdown of communication? Hmmn...
 
"Israel Warns Gaza to Brace for Escalation"

"JERUSALEM (Jan. 10) -- Israel pounded rocket sites and tunnels Saturday while its planes dropped leaflets warning of an escalation, and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas predicted a "waterfall of blood" unless all parties adhere to the U.N.'s call for a durable cease-fire.

"CNN reported the Hamas commander in charge of launching rockets into Israel was killed Saturday by Israeli ground fire

:clap:

the Israel Defense Forces said in a statement. Israeli forces spotted Amir Mansi firing a rocket from the Jabel Rise area, east of Gaza City, during a ground force operation, the IDF said. Israeli troops opened fire, killing Mansi and capturing two other Hamas operatives, the Israelis said."



So lets see the death toll right now according to the article is:

800 Palestinians dead, 3 thousand+ wounded.

13 Israelis dead, 100-150 wounded.


Israel is tearing them a new one!


Also something I found interesting:

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/12/30/2257888-hezbollah-watches-for-now-as-israel-hits-hamas


Hezbollah "cannot afford to enter a full-scale war with Israel, which would be devastating for Lebanon," said Paul Salem, Beirut-based director of the Carnegie Middle East Center, an arm of the Washington-based Carnegie Endowment for International Peace


Looks like for now Hezbollah is going to sit this one out.


edit:

Some might get a kick out of this

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=672_1231642115

Gaza Cam!

I only toyed with it for a few min so I am not even sure it is real. A lot of people have been commenting on it and getting results so I will take it at face value.

I did not hear much except for some machine gun fire, a small explosion, and the sound of some jets.

I hope its not fake, it would be cool to catch it during a heavy military operation.
 
I think anyone defending anyone who has the "muslim courage" of hiding behind children, sick people and women is as despicable as the person firing tank shells at aforementioned cover.

Israel might not be following all regulations, but it's defending it's country against PURE TERRORISM.

Just because the muslim rockets suck(yes I am lumping all muslims together with HAMAS, since the anti-semite protests happening in my country point to All muslims being on par with the HAMAS terrorists(my words, not theirs)) does not mean that the israeli people are any less terrorized.
haveing to retreat to bomb shelters more than once a day is NOT a normal way of living.

Pro-palestinian US citizens, riddle me this:
If Cuba was constantly firing missles at New York, and had PRIME DIRECTIVES stating that they want to destroy the US state, would you not invade the country to deal with the pathetic terrorist scum?
I'm sure you would, and luckily this is what your government sees as well.

Am quite sure Obama will just back Israel, which will Piss off quite a few PETA-Obama-Kids, but will be the "right" thing to do.

I've truly missed the ambigious times of war, makes for good troll- I mean debating.
 
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