Senegal and North Korea?

[Crni Vuk]

And your point is ?

Someone said it was not.

I was curious though since someone here said something like "they have lower IQ" and now you mean the IQ is hereditary which would mean that some think (Not that I mean you with that now) Africans might be inherently less inteligent or something.

I'm not talking about tests, I'm talking about studies.

alright then which studies are you talking about ?

 

[Sander]

I was curious though since someone here said something like "they have lower IQ" and now you mean the IQ is hereditary which would mean that some think (Not that I mean you with that now) Africans might be inherently less inteligent or something.

Even if they were, what's wrong with that conclusion? There's no reason dark skin can't correlate with a lower IQ. Just like asians are generally short. As long as you don't let your actions be led by that knowledge, as long as you don't treat individuals like representative of the stereotype, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that.

 

[Crni Vuk]

hey Sander got a membership in the KKK or something ?

 

[victor]

Crni, you're an idiot.

If you raise a black child in a Western European family, he'll run a higher chance of having a normal to high IQ than if he had stayed in Africa. It's not a black thing, it's a society thing. There are high IQ people in poor African countries but they're fewer.

Lack of education => lower than average IQ.

 

[Crni Vuk]

meh. Jesus christ. All I am saying is that black people are NOT inherently less inteligent compared to white people. What ever if they are africans, asian or what ever. It has nothing to do with your skin colour. Some people are less inteligent. maybe cause the mother forgot to stop drinking and smokeing during her pregnancy, or cause the child had the luck to grow up in the midle of Kongo with some AK as birthday present to fight some other tribes and thus it never learnd anything else or to be born in some militant red neck family in the south of the US. What do I know. But what ever if the IQ of a human is hereditary or not it has nothing to do with skin colour.

Crni, you're an idiot.

IQ is hereditary.

Even if they were, what's wrong with that conclusion? There's no reason dark skin can't correlate with a lower IQ.

The point was that big D claims the IQ is hereditary, so if someone would as well claim now Africans have a lower IQ then I asume he thinks that Africans are inherently less inteligent compared to Europeans or Americans (or non african people in general). Now maybe I am just to confused right now. But how can that be not offensive to Africans ?

And why should the IQ of a person correlate with a black skin or skin colour in general ?

 

[Sander]

hey Sander got a membership in the KKK or something ?

Eh, what? I'm talking about statistical facts. I don't think anything less of people who look differently from me or anyone based on those statistics. I'm not saying anyone has fewer rights, I'm not judging anyone. Hell, I"m not even saying that the statistics point to that. All I'm saying is that *if* the statistics do point to that, what's wrong with acknowledging that? Would you rather ignore facts because they're not politically correct?

meh. Jesus christ. All I am saying is that black people are NOT inherently less inteligent compared to white people.

There's a difference between being inherently less intelligent (which would imply that no black man can ever be as intelligent as the smartest white man, which is nonsense) and African-Americans being less intelligent on average. And it's not really a statement we can make since we have no good definition of intelligence and no real good way of measuring it.

I'll tell you something else. On average, black people are much better at certain sports than white people. Is there something wrong with acknowledging that fact?

But how can that be not offensive to Africans ?

And why should the IQ of a person correlate with a black skin or skin colour in general ?

It's not about should or shouldn't. It's about is.

 

[victor]

And why should the IQ of a person correlate with a black skin or skin colour in general ?

It most likely doesn't, but there's no reason it couldn't.

But that wasn't really the point. A major factor for IQ being "hereditary" is social situation that doesn't change. If you go back a hundred or so years to rural Europe, most people you'd meed would have a fairly low IQ. We got a better standard of living, education, and there: IQ average rises. It would be the same thing for Africa, but since not much has changed for the better since decolonization, their IQ average remains low.

Nor did I ever equal IQ to intelligence. The response to the "Africa is retarded" post was a little tongue-in-cheek in case you hadn't noticed; an IQ of 70-80 usually correlates with mild mental retardation and significant learning disabilities. I don't have a safe source saying the average IQ is lower there (I doubt anyone does), but it definitely wouldn't surprise me. Wouldn't surprise me if it was about the same in equally poor countries all over the world, either.


As Sander said, we're not debating cause. We're stating facts, like what he said about sports. We didn't point that to genetics (but I don't completely exclude that it could play a part).

 

[Crni Vuk]

and thats the point I see as critical claim. I would like to see some scientific sources or research to back up that point. IQ isnt simply determined by education in schools or universities.

Surviving somewhere in the desert with the need to catch every day your food and find eventualy new ways to survive can be just as challanging like making your master in some university. And I doubt most of us educated eurotards would survive in some desert even one day

I of course I agree that the lack of industrialisation in many parts of africa and their low standart in engineering and technology can be seen as a issue of low education or the lack of it. But I doubt education in the traditional western way of schooling is the only way to get a high IQ. It sounds to simple for me.

 

[Sander]

Crni, you're confusing IQ (a measure of intelligence based entirely on a practical test) and intelligence. They are not the same thing and your argument makes no sense this way. Perhaps having to survive every day in a desert makes you really good at that, but it wouldn't help one bit in a IQ test.

 

[Crni Vuk]

then please help me to understand how the IQ tests (or what ever you call it) is working. Cause the only things I can find about it are on Wiki.

 

[victor]

Crni, you're confusing IQ (a measure of intelligence based entirely on a practical test) and intelligence. They are not the same thing and your argument makes no sense this way. Perhaps having to survive every day in a desert makes you really good at that, but it wouldn't help one bit in a IQ test.

Exactly.

Crni, don't ever equal IQ and intelligence. IQ is a measure of abstract logical thought, something you develop a lot in Western education, with maths for instance. An IQ test measures just that, something you probably wouldn't learn in a rural environment, or at least not focus on.

You don't need IQ to herd animals or hunt. I'm not saying it wouldn't help, I'm saying it's not necessary.

I, on the other hand, wouldn't know shit about those things. I'm getting kind of sick of people saying "there's different kinds of IQ" or some such. No. There's only one kind of IQ. But it's improperly named, as there could very well be different kinds of intelligence.

 

[Arden]

IQ means Intelligence Quotient. Its supposed to be a number that reflects the „intelligence“ of an individual.
Problems: 1 there is no clear definition of “intelligence”.
2 IQ assumes that 100 is the average intelligence, so what is average? There have been no nation wide tests to establish an average
3. There is no standard for IQ-Tests, there are several methods. I made three tests, according to those I got an IQ from 105 to 128. So apart from probably being intelligent I am none the wiser for it .

Intelligence: like “Life”, there are dozens of different definitions. Do you need self-awareness for intelligence? Does education matter? Does cultural conditioning matter? Does accumulated knowledge matter? Or is all this crap and your intelligence is defined solely by the size of your brain and number of synapses? If so, at what age is intelligence or potential intelligence formed and defined?

Depending on how you answer those questions one can argue that people in developed nations are more intelligent, or black (or yellow, or white) people are more or less intelligent. Hell, you can even argue that the inhabitants of a country using Wechsler-tests are far more intelligent that those of a different country using Catell-Tests. Your argument with sander and victor only stems from your assumption that intelligence is not genetic and them not excluding that possibility (not approving of it or even take it as a given, just not denying that it could be possible). So… IQ has only meaning in certain contexts. Comparing a middle-aged white engineer with a 12-year old Japanese orphan using Wechsler doesn’t say a thing. Using the test on 5 different middle-aged engineers may lead to some insights, like how big is the difference and what are factors in their lifes, health, upbringing, education or other aspect that might explain the difference. It could be significant if 4 of those 5 had an IQ of 110 and one 130 and that the different one had been an orphan. Then again it might just be coincidence and you would have to make the same test with a million engineers to see if the results are statistically significant or not.

In my opinion too much stuff is extrapolated (or made up) from such abstract things like IQ-Tests and followup-studies. Depending on the definitions, the questions, the people you ask, you can get every answer you want. We live in the age of statistics and polls. They have their uses and, carefully evaluated and put into context, can point to a common denominator. But don’t take them as universal truths. Because if you do, then Fallout 3 must be a good game, sales prove it. Millions bought it and their IQ is 100 so they cant be stupid and clever people don’t buy stupid games do they?

 

[CloudlessDruid]

I think:
Crni don't think IQ is something that can be changed by living in a different society. So, according to Sander, victor and the others, if I am a black guy from Senegal, and my IQ is lower than the average white guy from Europe, even if I lived in europe in the same conditions as the white european, I wouldn't be able to be smart as him.
Thats what I learned too, that IQ determines the intelligence of someone, and theoretically you can't improve your IQ by training, since its a measurement of how intelligent you are. By what Sander and the rest of the people are saying, me and Crni are wrong. (Of course I am seeing as Crni opinion is the same as me, maybe I am wrong). IQ does not determinate your intelligence, it just measures it at the moment.

Oh, and IQ is hereditary? I think I heard a few times that Einstein's daughter was not a genius, and she had an average IQ. IQ being hereditary is completely bullshit, considering IQ determines your intelligence, or just measure its at the moment, it does not make sense. So I never can be more intelligent than my parents?

 

[victor]

Einstein apparently had a fairly average IQ. Around 130 according to some sources. But again, it doesn't really matter if Einstein had a high IQ or not. It's irrelevant to the discussion, especially as none of use know what IQ he had. I'm going to stop speculating about it, anyway.

So, according to Sander, victor and the others, if I am a black guy from Senegal, and my IQ is lower than the average white guy from Europe, even if I lived in europe in the same conditions as the white european, I wouldn't be able to be smart as him.

That's the polar opposite of what I said. Read my posts before you reply.


It's not that you have no chance of having a higher IQ than your parents, it's just that the probability (do you know what that is?) is lower. Very possibly due to social environment and education during upbringing. If you parents are dirt farmers, and you're raised to be a dirt farmer, then it's improbable you would have a higher IQ.

And again, I'm not saying IQ is a measure of intelligence. Nor did Sander.

*facepalm*

 

[Blakut]

Lack of education => lower than average IQ.

IQ is independent on education... that's the point of IQ...

 

[victor]

In theory, yes. But it usually isn't.

 

[Blakut]

Yeah, if you make bad IQ tests.

I remember IQ tests i had to take in highschool, when the army wanted to draft me.

Only geometrical signs, with the what comes next question. Those were really difficult near the end. But most people completed 60-70% by the end.

Of course there were retards that couldn't get the control questions right, but those exist in every country.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Crni, you're confusing IQ (a measure of intelligence based entirely on a practical test) and intelligence. They are not the same thing and your argument makes no sense this way. Perhaps having to survive every day in a desert makes you really good at that, but it wouldn't help one bit in a IQ test.

Exactly.

Crni, don't ever equal IQ and intelligence. IQ is a measure of abstract logical thought, something you develop a lot in Western education, with maths for instance. An IQ test measures just that, something you probably wouldn't learn in a rural environment, or at least not focus on.

You don't need IQ to herd animals or hunt. I'm not saying it wouldn't help, I'm saying it's not necessary.

I, on the other hand, wouldn't know shit about those things. I'm getting kind of sick of people saying "there's different kinds of IQ" or some such. No. There's only one kind of IQ. But it's improperly named, as there could very well be different kinds of intelligence.

If the IQ would be just as clear how you show it here then I ask my self from where the criticsm is coming from regarding it (see Wikipedia). I know its not the best source. But so far I actualy havnt seen any serious attempt here to explain what IQ or Inteligence is. Mind you guys, the way how those "IQs" are defined and explained are a western view on the topic. So its obvious that western education will lead to a higher IQ at some point (which is a criticism regarding the bias of certain studies). I dont simply equal IQ with Inteligence. But there is a relation at some point.

But who exactly tells me that someone trying to figure out how to do the correct farming, with plants, surviving in harsh enviroments cant have a high IQ compared to someone who spend his time learning Math ? What is it that gives someone certain skills and abilities or that makes one person gifted and the other not ?. It's about someones skills in abstraction, ability to reason and comprehension. Strange enough with the Minnesota Mechanical Assembly Test children from the uperclass have here better results compared to the upper-class while tests like the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Scales give a completely different picture. Now which is the better one ?

I might not have much clue about IQs or Inteligence really. But I doubt things are simple.

Obviously some Brazilian or African Farmer will not be a expert in Algebra. But on the other side, do you think a Mathematician will be suddenly a perfect farmer cause of his skills in Math ?

There are many different studies and many ideas about IQ and intelligence. Obviously for me is if I do a test around math for example and place in a farmer and a person who learned math in school its clear that the farmer will not have the same "knowledge" and thus a lower IQ or what ever you want to call it. But thats beside the point you guys are talking how it seems from some scientific reports or studies. But even those have to be based on "some" kind of research which involves from my understanding at some point a "testing" of subjects.

If you parents are dirt farmers, and you're raised to be a dirt farmer, then it's improbable you would have a higher IQ.

And yet history has shown that many people that either A ) never received any ecuation at all or B ) have been raised as simple farmers, workers etc managed to achieve a lot of great things in science as well. While it is not common of course it still happens and leaves a lot to question what really gives someone a reason to be a genious while others not. There is a lot of research about that topic.

 

[victor]

But on the other side, do you think a Mathematician will be suddenly a perfect farmer cause of his skills in Math ?

That's the whole fucking point! He wouldn't know what the fuck to do! If you had read my posts you would also know I mentioned this at least twice. Also, you seem to be clinically unable to differentiate between probabilities and absolutes:

And yet history has shown that many people that either A ) never received any ecuation at all or B ) have been raised as simple farmers, workers etc managed to achieve a lot of great things in science as well.

It's just far less likely than if his parents were Nobel prize laureates. And success in science isn't necessarily related to high IQ.



You know what? Fuck it. I give up. It's like talking to a 5 year old, or a rabid and blind anti-racist. Bail!

 

[Crni Vuk]

But on the other side, do you think a Mathematician will be suddenly a perfect farmer cause of his skills in Math ?

That's the whole fucking point! He wouldn't know what the fuck to do! If you had read my posts you would also know I mentioned this at least twice.

Then I actualy have to say I miss your point ... sorry. I have no clue what you want to say. It seems to me contradicting.

If someone who has not the same knowledge like other people gets a low IQ for example but others with great education a high one. How can this kind of IQ test even be anything meaningfull for a comparison or say anything ? If he cant even understand the IQ-test he has to perform how can it have any meaning ?

From what I know and I am not sure if I am right if you want to measure something you need some kind of base.

You tell me I mistake IQ for Inteligence, yet every source I find about that topic makes a conection between Inteligence and IQ and tells that IQ tests try to measure inteligence in some way ... I mean its already in the name Intelligence quotient.

An intelligence quotient, or IQ, is a score derived from one of several different standardized tests designed to assess intelligence
~ Wiki

It just seems to me that there is still a lot of debate about how accurate or how well those measures regarding the IQ really are.