Sexism

[Szeder]

Political correctness, the overuse of words like sexist, racist will ensure that even games will suffer what the world suffers.

Please take a look at Caesar IV. In the name of Political Correctness they removed slaves. Soooo they altered historical facts ensuring that the game will be 100% PC.

Oh, where did I see that? 1984 perhaps? Against which nation are we waging war...........

 

[TheWesDude]

Women often earn less than a man for doing exactly the same job. Proven fact. In many countries, women were not allowed to vote until some point in the 20th century. Discrimination of women was daily routine for ages and still isn't extinct. So saying feminists don't have a case is just not true.

i have seen studies that show women make ~79% of the wage of a man doing the same job.

i have seen studies showing that women ask for raises ~45% less than men

i have seen studies showing that women work ~73% as much as men.

these are all for the same position keep in mind.

so women ask for more money less than men, thusly work for less money per hour, and work fewer of those hours than the men.

keep in mind, in every study i have seen factoring in hours and wage, all showed there was LESS a disparity between hourly wage than hours worked. when factored together to raise both to be the same, women MAKE MORE than a man.

Also, are you saying that anyone in this world is completely fine with being paid less money than another person who is doing the same job with the same effort and the same output? Because that's what the wage gap means. No one is saying that a housewife should earn the same amount of money as a male corporate executive; what people are saying is that a female executive should make the same as a male executive of the same education/ability/seniority level. It has been proven that they don't and that, taking all other factors as equal, there is a real wage disparity and glass ceiling. That is the heart of the issue about the wage difference.

incorrect, see above. also, i have known NUMEROUS women who gotten promoted/hired over men BECAUSE they were women EVEN when they were less qualified. my mom is one of them. and i have stories of the same vs minorities and white men.

if you are working or looking for work, you are at a DISADVANTAGE if you are a white male.

Men have never been oppressed on the basis of gender.

how many stories of beatings/killings because of homosexuality for females have you seen? they are all homosexual MALES that get beaten/killed.

 

[fedaykin]

i have seen studies

Quote your sources.

if you are working or looking for work, you are at a DISADVANTAGE if you are a white male.

You're exaggerating. The white male has never in history been at a disadvantage compared to other races and the opposite sex.

 

[TheWesDude]

sorry, i dont save copies of everything i read on my computer on the internet. i couldnt afford that much storage space.

and as to your 2nd point..

if you are female, you get bonus points for your application. if you are not white, you get more bonus points.

for a position in my mom's office ( ROTC admissions for the army ) she applied for a job and had 83 points. the other guy in her office ended up with 85 points. who got the job? my mom, because she is female she got bonus points which pushed her over his score.


for the poliece forces in puyallup washington area ( primarily caucasian area ) there is a huge lack of minorities applying to join the local sheriff/poliece offices. i knew a guy who every year qualified with an average of 85-90 every year for 5 years, yet never got selected to join due to females and other minorities who scored LOWER than him got the positions.


go go gadget affirmative action!

 

[Mord_Sith]

Fedaykin, as I said before, large companies and government institutions just love their Affirmative Action (or are forced to love it by law), and I believe I explained it's pseudo meaning, but here's a link to Stanford University explaining it in more detail than I'd ever bother:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/affirmative-action/

Now here's from my beloved Government, a little excerpt from this gem:

This "Equality Rights" section contains protection against discrimination and makes a provision for special affirmative action programs. Subsection 15(2) acknowledges that equality requires conditions of disadvantage to be addressed. This means that the argument that employment equity is 'reverse discrimination' is not legally valid. Employment equity does not target individuals or groups for exclusion, as does discrimination; rather, employment equity seeks to include groups that are proven to have been excluded in the past.

In effect it's illegal to argue that a male is getting thrust aside despite qualifications because someone was born without a trouser trout.

http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/lp/lo/lswe/we/information/history.shtml

Here's a fun one from the EU detailing in layman's terms what all that history means to the working man

An excerpt:

Faced with a similar challenge, the Canadian government passed the Employment Equity Act 1986 which places an obligation on federal employers to implement employment equity (affirmative action) by proactive means.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=881874


Now then, I really don't feel like digging through any more hate-pages or mildly irritated pages on this topic (it's very hard to find professional and unbiased opinions on this matter :/) so you're gonna have to live with these three bits and bobs, I'd live to point you to some strange looking tabloid-esque thing which pretty much says what I say, but the site is absolutely terrible and the fellow who wrote it was a WW2 vet with no journalistic experience from his footer credentials, so I doubt that would fly even if you stuffed it full of helium and put a propeller on top.[/b]

 

[Multidirectional]

Political correctness, the overuse of words like sexist, racist will ensure that even games will suffer what the world suffers.

Please take a look at Caesar IV. In the name of Political Correctness they removed slaves. Soooo they altered historical facts ensuring that the game will be 100% PC.

Oh, where did I see that? 1984 perhaps? Against which nation are we waging war...........

I agree completely. This "political correctness" bullshit is becoming one of the many forms of control, that's pretty much all there is too it.
That's what's interesting about these various "movements" - very soon someone with enough influence would use them to their purposes which have nothing to do with ideology itself.

 

[Snackpack]

keep in mind, in every study i have seen factoring in hours and wage, all showed there was LESS a disparity between hourly wage than hours worked. when factored together to raise both to be the same, women MAKE MORE than a man.

The statistics you're talking about are derived from looking at men and women doing the same work. Women statistically make less per hour for the exact same job. You can attempt to use your magic math to explain that away however you like, but it's a fact. Whether women work less on average is irrelevant.

if you are working or looking for work, you are at a DISADVANTAGE if you are a white male.

Yeh all the poor disenfranchised white males! *sniffle* Any minute now we'll risk being sold into white slavery and spat upon whenever we walk down the streets!

Since you seem pretty fond of anecdotal evidence, when was the last time you were discriminated against for being a white male?

As far as the whole "bonus points" system goes, um, I don't know about the military and police forces, but corporate america doesn't run on some kind of "points" system when you apply for a job. Also, how do you know your wannabe cop friend didn't score lower than said females and minorities? Employers don't give that information away.

I agree that societies tendency to be overly pc in an attempt not to offend anyone is stupid, but that doesn't negate facts. And it definitely doesn't mean white males are somehow now at a disadvantage. The only exception being the one you pointed out, gay men.

 

[fedaykin]

i knew a guy who every year qualified with an average of 85-90 every year for 5 years, yet never got selected to join due to females and other minorities who scored LOWER than him got the positions.

Sounds like a sore loser who lied, because he couldn't face the fact that he wasn't good enough for the job.

Oh, and by the way. You memorized exact percentages, yet you can't even give us the links to the studies you quoted from?

 

[alec]

I think sexism is really funny. It adds some spice to life, and of course it is also justified behaviour because in the Holy Bible it clearly says that "Thou art woman, thou shallth be the man's donkey and work for him and please him and make him a sammich if he so pleaseth." And: "Because thou had seduceth man to bite thy worm infested apple, thou shallth reveive less pay when thou workst, and thou shallth bleed monthly because Beelzebub himself liveth betwixt thy loins." And do you not remember Jesus' famous speech when he defeated Skeletor in the Gaza desert, using his AK47 and a Swiss Army knife: "Look down upon me, Father: I have defeated the evil Skeletor! As a reward I would like a Mercedes Benz, a library card and I demand you to ask Maria Magdalena to make me a sammich for she is the cause of all this misery that has been bestowed upon the world!" And God answered: "It shall be done!"
Furthermore, scientific research has also clearly proven that the female of the species is intellectually inferior to the male of the species. One of the best examples is in spotting the erogenous zone. All men pointed to their, you know, their thing, while women all pointed to different regions of their body. "My hips," one would say. "My neck," another would say. And so on. There was no consensus whatsoever. This clearly proves my point.

 

[Snackpack]

And do you not remember Jesus' famous speech when he defeated Skeletor in the Gaza desert, using his AK47 and a Swiss Army knife

Don't blaspheme. Everyone knows Skeletor teamed up with Gargamel and Dr. Wily and won that battle fair and square, it's science fact.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Women often earn less than a man for doing exactly the same job. Proven fact. In many countries, women were not allowed to vote until some point in the 20th century. Discrimination of women was daily routine for ages and still isn't extinct. So saying feminists don't have a case is just not true.

i have seen studies that show women make ~79% of the wage of a man doing the same job.

i have seen studies showing that women ask for raises ~45% less than men

i have seen studies showing that women work ~73% as much as men.

these are all for the same position keep in mind.

so women ask for more money less than men, thusly work for less money per hour, and work fewer of those hours than the men.

keep in mind, in every study i have seen factoring in hours and wage, all showed there was LESS a disparity between hourly wage than hours worked. when factored together to raise both to be the same, women MAKE MORE than a man.

Now as you mention it, you know gay people managed to change things in a smarter way.

Some long time before they thought about and started to have a debate about gay marriage in Germany people were going for laws to protect gays (in a similar sense as females have some special laws for their protection).

Now in that regard gay people standed up and objected against such a kind of a law with right in my eyes. Some had the opinion that such "special" laws would be only a tourn of 360° back in the wrong direction as it would only support the general believing "those" are different people anyway. And such a special protection would now even thightening this kind of statement with laws in some form.

All gays wanted was a protection in the same form as it already was present. As "minority" which they actualy are. And have the same rights and protection as those. Not any specialiced terms or protection if there is already everything present. It just was not used for gays till then.

I think, with so many "special" needs for it, females somewhat cause in some cases their own foreclosure. Frankly of course there are differences (like pregancy and such) which have of course to be keept in mind. But I dont see special laws like that a company has to take 10 or 17% female employes (even if a men could do the job better, all I say is the best person for the job).

Now I worked for quite some time with the voluntary firebrigade and we would do from time to time physical exams to see if our body still can handle the stress. Now I was kinda surprised when I have seen that females have to handle less, in both power and endurance. Now I am really not a misogynic person. But there are seriously a few small males which could not achieve what was needed for a male to pass the test but would have got what a female needs. And they get rejected. Now I ask my self if that is really the point of all this equality. Its really not like in a real situation someone comes to you and now decides that your a male or female. It just happens. That has nothing to do with "sexism". It is just how it is.

 

[TheWesDude]

Whether women work less on average is irrelevant.

yes, because businesses dont care if you show up for work or miss days.

Since you seem pretty fond of anecdotal evidence, when was the last time you were discriminated against for being a white male?

well, lets talk about my last job shall we? it was helpdesk work and there were some problems between the company and the sub-contractor i was working through. then, in a single month everyone with my sub-contractor either got hired or fired. 3 got hired, a black guy, an asian guy, and a mexican. i had higher attendance scores, higher quality scores, and higher first call resolution scores. those 3 got hired, all the white guys got fired. the white chick was allowed to stay on the contract, and another black guy was allowed to stay on the contract, and recently got hiried on by the main company. out of a class of 15, all on the same sub-contractor, only minorities were not fired. and i had the 2nd best overall stats for the people in my training class, and higher stats than any of the minorities. now it was a government contract, so there are legal requirements for minorities. i had received an award for excellent performance 2 weeks before i was terminated. i was on track to get a promotion by january if i had not been fired in october. i was terminated for "attendance" issues for missing 3 days in a row over a month before my termination. and still, i had higher attendance scores than any of the minorities. so, why was i fired if it was not for "discrimination" ?

As far as the whole "bonus points" system goes, um, I don't know about the military and police forces, but corporate america doesn't run on some kind of "points" system when you apply for a job. Also, how do you know your wannabe cop friend didn't score lower than said females and minorities? Employers don't give that information away.

because they posted the waiting list with where you were on the waiting list. most poliece forces that i know of in the washington area do that. they have waiting lists to join the force. thats how he knew people lower on the waiting list got in while he did not.

I agree that societies tendency to be overly pc in an attempt not to offend anyone is stupid, but that doesn't negate facts. And it definitely doesn't mean white males are somehow now at a disadvantage. The only exception being the one you pointed out, gay men.

we are, its just not as obvious because white men cannot claim discrimination as easily due to prejudisim that only minorities can claim it. so its allowed to happen to white men because our "right to work" status is not protected.

Oh, and by the way. You memorized exact percentages, yet you can't even give us the links to the studies you quoted from?

my mom memorized the numbers because it happened to her. in the federal govt if you are denied a promotion you can request a review of the hiring proccess and get the final result. they go by a points scale and he made a copy of it and gave it to my mom. he was not happy and for the next year or 2 after that before he quit (due to being passed over for promotions for the exact same reason) he never treated my mom well.

and the reason i remember the #s from the poliece guy is because he told me the story a few times in the 2 years i worked at the reasturant and it always stuck with me that as a white man, i would be the one discriminated against legally.

 

[Snackpack]

yes, because businesses dont care if you show up for work or miss days.

Totally off the point. A study showing women work less than men in no way indicates that they call in sick more often. There would also be maternity leave to figure into that statistic. And before you cry foul and say that's another way men are discriminated against, I've known men who got time off to look after their newborns, though it's far rarer and wouldn't affect the numbers so much.

so, why was i fired if it was not for "discrimination" ?

It was a helpdesk job, a trained badger could do it. It's just as likely that you were fired because you were close to meeting promotion requirements and drawing more pay as anything else. Many companies keep their costs down by firing any replaceable employees and throwing a new one into the same position at the bottom of their pay scale.

because they posted the waiting list with where you were on the waiting list. most poliece forces that i know of in the washington area do that. they have waiting lists to join the force. thats how he knew people lower on the waiting list got in while he did not.

So we have some police departments and the federal government that goes by some silly point system during hiring. The rest of the job market does not.

It's also worth considering that police departments need female officers to search female suspects, and bilingual officers to interrogate non-english speaking suspects.

Now, I'm not saying white males are never discriminated against in the situations you've presented. Any time an un-malleable policy is instituted there are bound to be problems. Even so, to claim that white males are at more of a disadvantage than females or minorities is total bullshit.

 

[Mord_Sith]

I get this funny feeling that a lot of non-Canadians don't have a clear view of exactly what is happening up here with affirmative action, yeah it's great, people who are normally overlooked because of their gender biases or racial biases are now able to get a job along with everyone else to try and ease the employers and the workforce in general to be able to replace their bias with knowledge that these people can actually work in these situations.

However as bot Wes and I have stated, affirmative action forces employers (federal or otherwise) to give more weight to someone who's colored different than the majority or has a different set of plumbing than someone who has the skills and if it weren't for the law itself, they would have hired the more qualified person.

However this forced hiring is damaging the cause as well, because they don't know what they are doing in some cases, they can re-enforce, rather than dispel beliefs in the working majority that minorities and / or women in the workplace fit the racial or sexual profiling that they have been taught when they were knee high.

I can't bloody well wait, in a decade or so, Caucasians are no longer going to be a visible majority with the almost assembly line efficiency that many of the Aboriginal people are producing children.

But that's a whole other topic for a whole other day that will drive Meph nuts over once again, and once again it's a case of the bad portion of the race putting it's worst foot forward.

It's funny, but why does it matter what set of pipes you have? Sure guys don't get pregnant, but I can personally say I haven't even come close to potentially getting someone pregnant, one of the joys of being celibate.

Anyways, my point is, there is maternity leave, and other medical requirements set up and common in the workplace now, isn't it time that people are actually treated equal for once, stand on their own two feet and not be judged (either pro or con) based on the color of their skin, or the their plumbing, or even their religion, it's a fairly forgiving workplace these days, hell I listen (quietly mind you) to heavy metal whenever there's nobody but myself in the office closet that IT occupies and I have an anime bust of a gundam on my desk, as well as a kinder surprise right in plain view.

I'd like to see anyone do that in an office 20 years ago and not get fired!

--EDIT--

Changed: 'Have a view' to 'don't have a clear view'

 

[Sander]

Totally off the point. A study showing women work less than men in no way indicates that they call in sick more often. There would also be maternity leave to figure into that statistic. And before you cry foul and say that's another way men are discriminated against, I've known men who got time off to look after their newborns, though it's far rarer and wouldn't affect the numbers so much.

He could just as easily be talking about women having more part-time jobs, or doing less overtime.

Also, people, for the love of god try to source claims like these studies. Memory is often inexact, and going 'Hey I read this study once' isn't exactly very convincing.

What I'm wondering is why there seems to be a debate on whether or not affirmative action is in place? Yes, it is in place in several countries, and in varying forms. Some of them are in the forms of penalties if the companies don't consist of at least a certain % of females. In other cases, there are rewards for similar things.

Finally, the long-term effects of short-term affirmative action are being ignored.
The point of affirmative action is to improve the general situation of women (and other dispriviledged groups) not just by giving them jobs and thus improving statistics, but by making it more commonplace for these groups to be in all positions. Thusly lowering the threshold that may exist for women to be hired, and making affirmative action obsolete in the future.

 

[TheWesDude]

It was a helpdesk job, a trained badger could do it. It's just as likely that you were fired because you were close to meeting promotion requirements and drawing more pay as anything else. Many companies keep their costs down by firing any replaceable employees and throwing a new one into the same position at the bottom of their pay scale.

other than the fact they were struggling to find people who wanted to be promoted. lots of the people working normal helpdesk T1 didnt want to be promoted to T2. they were not having a problem finding T1 workers, but they were having a problem finding T2+ people. and none of the guys in my class wanted to "climb the ladder" there either. they all wanted to stay T1 and then move on to other jobs at that organization or in the fully private sector where they could make a lot more money.

So we have some police departments and the federal government that goes by some silly point system during hiring. The rest of the job market does not.

and those are the only 2 places i have heard of any kind of discrimination. but then again, in most places i have worked men dominated the higher positions. and they usually did the most to try to get promotions as well. in my experience in the private sector, most women are content to sit at the bottom ranks and while they may occasionally try to get higher level jobs, they do not put in much effort to try to get them. this is without going into experience of women getting preferential treatment schedule wise and not getting penalized nearly as much as men especially when they have children. it almost makes me wish i had a kid just so i could get preferred schedules at work like others do.

Now, I'm not saying white males are never discriminated against in the situations you've presented. Any time an un-malleable policy is instituted there are bound to be problems. Even so, to claim that white males are at more of a disadvantage than females or minorities is total bullshit.

and yet whenver you involve any government/public agency or anything like that, its very true that they are.

 

[Snackpack]

and those are the only 2 places i have heard of any kind of discrimination. but then again, in most places i have worked men dominated the higher positions.

if you are working or looking for work, you are at a DISADVANTAGE if you are a white male.

Looks like you just defeated your own argument there bud.

I can't bloody well wait, in a decade or so, Caucasians are no longer going to be a visible majority with the almost assembly line efficiency that many of the Aboriginal people are producing children.

What the shit do the breeding habits of indigenous Australians have to do with Canada's population??

I assume by "Aboriginal" you mean black? Get some facts to back that up then, because I'm pretty sure poor people the world over are having lots of children regardless of skin color. Especially Catholics, every sperm is sacred you know.

 

[Elissar]

Every sperm is not sacred... even in conception thousands if not millions of sperm are wasted..

 

[jero cvmi]

soo (back on topic)

how exactly does removing slaves from a game about ancient Rome help reduce discrimination?

all this political correctness bullshit actually helps perpetuating racism, sexism etc. IMO.

you have to acknowledge any problem first before trying to do anything to solve it.

 

[Snackpack]

@Elissar:

Using the word "wasted" makes me think you may have gotten it and were playing around, but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk in case you didn't

You know you're getting old when your "pop" culture references have become more like mesozoic cultural references.