Shacknews: Fallout 3 like Oblivion with exploding heads

[Per]

long

Watch out, Bodybag is going to pwnz you by changing every instance of the word "twitch" into a link and adding a smiley at the bottom.

Myself, I wouldn't say a System Shock 2-style game would necessarily be "retarded", though it isn't an RPG (even if it does have an Agility score).

 

[Morbus]

Deus Ex wasn't retarded either. It was a very deep and interesting First Person Shooter. If you wanna label it a RPG, it becomes a very superficial twitchy average aRPG... Same thing with SS2...

 

[Brother None]

bodybag who is that in your avatar is it the indian from "one flew over the cuckoo's nest"

No, it's Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men.

I think that a lot of debates on the various forums are examining the "wrong end" of the combat system in their endeavor to determine to what extent it is like or unlike a standard first-person-shooter's combat system. That is to say, in this thread and in numerous others across various internet boards, the debate over the FPS/RPG nature of VATS/FO3 seems to center upon the hit/accuracy/damage calculation of shots, as if it were only in this petty exchange of numerical values that the "key" lies to understand how far Fallout 3's combat strays from the original form that we enjoyed - and how much it could possibly venture into a realm that we would find ourselves averse to.

Not really, the key lies in the difference between character skill determining your skill in combat or player skill determining skill in combat. Fallout was all about the former, Fallout 3 is a mix.

one in which every miserly-hoarded half-crumb of genuine information is given over the edge of the gold satin tablecloth with a blase pinky-flick from Pete, then rolls past (as it did before Oblivion) the rowed clutching digits of vermin arrayed in gauntlet formation, every one of them in madchattering paroxysms of ecstacy at the merest opening to nibble and drool upon "THE WORD" as it tumbleweeds dumbly by them with all of the nobility and elegance of a spheroid and glutinous turd until, finally, as it concludes its corkscrew slalom up-and-through-and-tween-and-twixt the coiled Food Chain, the vermin having had their fair fill and their share of fun with what is now "I I- F V CPL", in a state barely recognizable it wheezes to a final stop in the center of our debating circle and -- what could such a sad little speck of nothing signify in our forced-speculative debate

Yip, exactly like Oblivion and the first wave of Fallout 3 previews.

I'm amazed they can get people to trip over each other for previews with this kind of nonsense.

CnC dialogue trees are cerebral; twitchy minigames to linearly chat are not. Foreseeing the need to build up a certain stat to unlock and doing so through weighing various mathematical figures and multipliers is cerebral; playing an unloseable minigame that ignores or overrides your skill is not. Finding and following clues, all on your own, to riches and excitement is cerebral; following an arrow is not.

And that's pretty much the gist of it, and why Bethesda's methods don't fit in well with Fallout as a franchise.

The popular definition of RPG has changed. Now it seems to mean stats of any kind, having even the smallest impact - and everything else is inconsequential, subject to complete neglect or contradiction. The Godfather: The Game is every bit the RPG that Oblivion is, and only slightly less the RPG than it seems like Fallout3 will be.

Pretty much, yes. Fallout 3 is another point in the new trend of shooter RPG. Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Alpha Protocol

 

[Bodybag]

long

Watch out, Bodybag is going to pwnz you by changing every instance of the word "twitch" into a link and adding a smiley at the bottom.

I try to help you, like a good neighbor, and this is the thanks I get? Something tells me none of you have been clicking that link, because you're still using that term ALL WRONG.

Myself, I wouldn't say a System Shock 2-style game would necessarily be "retarded", though it isn't an RPG (even if it does have an Agility score).

Serious question here - if the dialogue ends up playing out just like Fallout (with the notable exception of "stupid character" permutations) as far as CnC gameplay is concerned and if combat does indeed end up being entirely optional (ie player can finish the game diplomatically) can it then be considered an RPG, even though the combat is unconventional for the genre?

People don't have as hard a time accepting VtM:B as an RPG, for example.

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

I try to help you, like a good neighbor, and this is the thanks I get? Something tells me none of you have been clicking that link, because you're still using that term ALL WRONG

Yeah, you're a real samaritan.
I'm assuming you provided that link so we would take a look at their "Unnoficial Shmup Glossary" and despair at the factual inaccuracy of our usage of the term "twitch".
Sadly, you forgot, perhaps in your eagerness to enlighten us all, that words can have two (sometimes even more!) meanings, entirely distinct from each other. This is especially true with words used on different areas of knowledge and fields of expertise. And that is precisely the case here.
A "shmup", short for "Shoot 'em Up", is not the same thing as a FPS, short for "First-Person Shooter". At all. From the very same site,

Shmup: Short for “shoot-‘em-up.” Semi-official classification for video games in which a large amount of shooting is involved, and the gameplay is executed in a 2-dimensional style (though the graphical objects onscreen can be 3-D), and controlled strictly from a third-person perspective. Most shmups automatically scroll the background in a certain direction to create the impression of movement as the player progresses, and involve taking control of a plane or spacecraft (as such they are sometimes called “Space Shooters”), as well as collecting various power-ups,, but there are many, many exceptions to and variation on this. Though some use the term “shooter” by itself to refer to shmups (in Japan, in fact, shmups are usually called “Shooting Games,” or “STG’s” for short), this sometimes gets them confused with first-person shooters or light gun shooters.

My bolding in there, btw. You know, to help you. Like a good neighbor.

 

[vigilant]

hi to all,

summoned from teh intarnets by this

People don't have as hard a time accepting VtM:B as an RPG, for example.

i have short question to bodybag:
you troll for fun, or for the living ???

 

[Brother None]

summoned from teh intarnets by this

People don't have as hard a time accepting VtM:B as an RPG, for example.

i have short question to bodybag:
you troll for fun, or for the living ???

I'm not sure I agree with you there, VtM:B's combat doesn't exactly shout "I am an RPG!"

But the thing is, this fantasy of combining shooter combat with deep RPG gameplay is usually just that...a fantasy. If a company is going to dumb down combat, you can bet they'll go for the whole shebang and dumb down the entire game.

 

[Bodybag]

I'm assuming you provided that link so we would take a look at their "Unnoficial Shmup Glossary" and despair at the factual inaccuracy of our usage of the term "twitch".

That's one of the many dangers with assumptions. But you were close! I attempting to show you the people who are pretty much the guardians of what are considered "twitch shooters", much like you guys and the Codex often take it upon yourselves to divine what is and is not an RPG.

And I can (almost) sympathize with some of you guys looking for derogatory ways to drive the point home just how much you don't wan't player skill seeping into your precious RPG conventions, but labeling FPS games as "twitch" I just can't get behind. Shmups embodied twitch gameplay a decade and a half before people even heard about the Doom shareware levels, and FPS games have not closed the gap enough since to make the application of that term to them anything but fucking retarded.

OR IN OTHER WORDS: Seeing people apply "twitch" to an FPS is about like reading that VATS is turn-based. they simply don't know what the FUCK they're saying, but it makes sense to them.

hi to all,

summoned from teh intarnets by this

People don't have as hard a time accepting VtM:B as an RPG, for example.

i have short question to bodybag:
you troll for fun, or for the living ???

I don't get paid for it, if that's what you're asking.

Was there a problem with my assertion re: VtM:B?

 

[vigilant]

I'm not sure I agree with you there, VtM:B's combat doesn't exactly shout "I am an RPG!"

But the thing is, this fantasy of combining shooter combat with deep RPG gameplay is usually just that...a fantasy. If a company is going to dumb down combat, you can bet they'll go for the whole shebang and dumb down the entire game.

and that's why title "Fallout 3" is improper for beth's newest game, as it is an fps-with-some-stats spinoff

you troll for fun, or for the living ???

I don't get paid for it, if that's what you're asking.

Ladies and gentleman I'VE GOT HIM

 

[Seymour the spore plant]

I attempting to show you the people who are pretty much the guardians of what are considered "twitch shooters", much like you guys and the Codex often take it upon yourselves to divine what is and is not an RPG

Okay. But then if you'll consider their definition of "twitch" the end-all holy grail because it's a fansite who obviously dedicated a lot of thought to it, you gotta take our word for what is a RPG. Can't use a double-standard here without being a hypocrite.

 

[Eyenixon]

I'm assuming you provided that link so we would take a look at their "Unnoficial Shmup Glossary" and despair at the factual inaccuracy of our usage of the term "twitch".

That's one of the many dangers with assumptions. But you were close! I attempting to show you the people who are pretty much the guardians of what are considered "twitch shooters", much like you guys and the Codex often take it upon yourselves to divine what is and is not an RPG.

And I can (almost) sympathize with some of you guys looking for derogatory ways to drive the point home just how much you don't wan't player skill seeping into your precious RPG conventions, but labeling FPS games as "twitch" I just can't get behind. Shmups embodied twitch gameplay a decade and a half before people even heard about the Doom shareware levels, and FPS games have not closed the gap enough since to make the application of that term to them anything but fucking retarded.

OR IN OTHER WORDS: Seeing people apply "twitch" to an FPS is about like reading that VATS is turn-based. they simply don't know what the FUCK they're saying, but it makes sense to them.

While a good developer can certainly make an FPS something more complex then a pure twitch game, the main concern is that Bethesda won't have the necessary pool of talent to accomplish that, especially since they're including "RPG elements".

 

[Per]

And I can (almost) sympathize with some of you guys looking for derogatory ways to drive the point home

Hey, my kettle takes exception to that.

Also, vigilant, while we appreciate the intarnets and all, we're fully stocked on vigilante modding, thanks.

 

[Brother None]

That's one of the many dangers with assumptions. But you were close! I attempting to show you the people who are pretty much the guardians of what are considered "twitch shooters", much like you guys and the Codex often take it upon yourselves to divine what is and is not an RPG.

Stereotype much?

Many of us, including me, couldn't give a shit less what you call an RPG. Call Diablo an RPG for all I care. Or GTA IV. Oblivion is basically as much an RPG in the classic definition of the word as GTA IV or Diablo.

But it's just a word. And more, it's an umbrella term which includes a wide spectrum of games. What annoys me is not when people call everything from Realms of Arkania to Oblivion an RPG, it's when people start to pretend that just because both games are RPGs they should automatically share gameplay elements. That just because Oblivion can still be called an RPG despite being a basic free-roaming adventure game in essence, that means any RPG can be made a basic free-roaming adventure game.

Well, not really. Fallout is one kind of RPG. Oblivion, Mass Effect, Alpha Protocol, those are other types of RPGs. The problem is not that they're all RPGs, the problem is when idiots come in clamouring for Fallout to move from the former to the latter without any better argument than "it's next-gen".

 

[vigilant]

Also, vigilant, while we appreciate the intarnets and all, we're fully stocked on vigilante modding, thanks.

sorry, but I've suddenly grow tired of scrolling through posts full of crap to find some reasonable comments

 

[Bodybag]

Stereotype much?

When in Rome...

the problem is when idiots come in clamouring for Fallout to move from the former to the latter without any better argument than "it's next-gen".

I must have missed the idiots making this case, but it would seem like they'd be easy enough to dismiss.

 

[Brother None]

I must have missed the idiots making this case, but it would seem like they'd be easy enough to dismiss.

It's basically what they're saying, for example, here.

Easy to dismiss? Not so much. Because the reality is that with a ~25 million USD budget Bethesda has to make a Mass Effect-genre game. It'd be interesting to test the market with a well-producer, deeper and turn-based title, but Bethesda is not going to take that risk. That's reality, simple as that.

Yeah, we say, but why buy Fallout to do that? And that's usually where the argument grinds into a halt of obscenities and absurdities.

 

[Bodybag]

But this is where the argument becomes one of principles vs pragmatism. Who is going to make a AAA-produced game title that's in step with Fallout's original "emulated PnP" structure? It's a pretty short list, if not toally blank.

 

[Brother None]

But this is where the argument becomes one of principles vs pragmatism. Who is going to make a AAA-produced game title that's in step with Fallout's original "emulated PnP" structure? It's a pretty short list, if not toally blank.

Define AAA-produced.

The funny thing is, what Obsidian likes to do when they can or what CD Project Red did or what Troika did until the publishers dropped them was close to what we'd like to see for Fallout. I doubt any developer would match up 100% with community wishes but let's be honest - they don't have to.

But if you produce an AA title at AA costs, like Troika did or BIS was trying to do, then Fallout and its pen and paper emulation philosophy fits your company's goals to a T. The franchise is very distinct from what the mainstream does, it has a passionate and active fanbase, and it allows for creative depth.

Hence, I think Fallout as a license is better suited to AA development then the 25+ million USD AAA development that BioWare and Bethesda do.

 

[UniversalWolf]

But this is where the argument becomes one of principles vs pragmatism. Who is going to make a AAA-produced game title that's in step with Fallout's original "emulated PnP" structure? It's a pretty short list, if not toally blank.

Speaking of pragmatism, you may have noticed you haven't persuaded anyone to agree with you. Feel free to continue, though. In fact, I'd nominate you to represent all the new posters who show up here once a week making the exact-same pre-refuted arguments. Or call them "differences of opinion" if you like. I don't mind reading them, but it would be helpful to boil them all down to one source for convenience.

Oh, and in response to your question, why would a AAA game production company buy the license for a more AA type of game? Fallout (real Fallout, I'm talking) is a distinctly different animal from Bethesda's stuff, and it has a fanbase that doesn't want or appreciate the changes being made to the franchise. Why not go one step further down the line, buy out Spiderweb, and turn Avernum or Geneforge into a Bethesda property? It would cost less and produce a similar result in terms of cultivating discontent.

If you like Bethesda and their games, good for you. They're taking taking one of my favorites and - for no good reason - transforming it into something far less appealing to me, so you're going to have a tough time persuading me to think positively about them.

The bottom line: Bethesda is raping Fallout. Unless you can come up with a good argument to convince me why they should be doing what they're doing, dissecting the minutiae isn't going to accomplish very much.

 

[Brother None]

Speaking of pragmatism, you may have noticed you haven't persuaded anyone to agree with you. Feel free to continue, though. In fact, I'd nominate you to represent all the new posters who show up here once a week making the exact-same pre-refuted arguments. Or call them "differences of opinion" if you like. I don't mind reading them, but it would be helpful to boil them all down to one source for convenience.

Since this boils down to "hey, stupid, why do you stick around", allow me to strongly disagree.

It's people like Bodybag - who do bother to (somewhat) substantiate their counter-points and come up with arguments - that prevent us from just becoming a circle jerk. If nobody ever challenges our arguments, we just end up with lame-o "yeah, you're right, lulz" threads. The reason so many arguments have been dissected so deeply is that people keep popping up with a new angle at it.

If anything, we have too few people who disagree with us actively posting on our forums.