Shiavo case

welsh

Junkmaster
Not sure what you folks think of this.

Honestly, I was a bit reluctant to post this as it's been all over the damn news and frankly I think there are more important important issues out there.

But- here's the thing-
(1) Does the person have the right to die?
(2) Is this becoming just a political game where politicians get to posture over someone else's suffering?
(3) Isn't starving someone to death pretty freaking awful?

It's that last one that gets me. Basically the argument is going that this woman didn't want medical treatment to sustain her life, she has the right to deny treatment.

But the way she dies is that she receives no food or water and basically starves to death.

What do you think?

Schiavo Case Touches on Agonizing Issue

Wed Mar 23, 8:19 PM ET U.S. National - AP


By PAULINE ARRILLAGA, AP National Writer

The drama over whether to keep Terri Schiavo alive, as her parents wish, or allow her to die, which her husband advocates, has played out in courts, Congress and newspapers. But this highly public struggle is usually private, faced daily by American families in hushed hospital rooms and hospices, at the bedsides of children, spouses and parents.

It is an agonizing decision that can tear loved ones apart, or bring them closer; that can leave even those with written directives questioning their choices, their faith, themselves.


Barbara Dalicandro Daggett remembers feeling some sense of peace that day in 2000 when a doctor explained that her mother was dying.


Mary Dalicandro's lungs had filled with fluid, and she could no longer breathe on her own. But the headstrong 80-year-old's wishes were clear. A hospital was out of the question, and Mrs. Dalicandro didn't want a machine doing what she couldn't do on her own.


When she quietly slipped away two weeks later, she was at home, in her own bed, surrounded by those who loved her. It was sad, of course, her daughter recalls — but it also felt right. "She was a very dignified woman," Daggett says, "and she would not have wanted tubes hanging out of her, people all around, her privacy invaded — never."


Those who have been there feel empathy for Schiavo and her family, but also concern about the precedent the case could set. They wonder if the cause has overshadowed the woman at the center of it.


"Who is caring about her dignity?" asks Daggett, a school administrator in Phoenix.


"I would never have done that to my husband," Kathleen Scott says of the efforts by Schiavo's parents to keep her connected to the feeding tube that has kept her alive the past 15 years. Court-appointed doctors say Schiavo, 41, is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery, but her parents insist she could recover with treatment.


Stan Scott, a Chicago area building inspector, was 35 when he fell from a garage roof in 2003 and landed on his head. Within days, his brain stem, memory and part of the brain that controls motor skills were gone, though he wasn't clinically brain-dead.


The couple had no living wills but had agreed they wouldn't want to be kept alive by machines. With the backing of her husband's family, Kathleen Scott determined Stan's life support should be disconnected. She was preparing to sign the papers when he died.


"My husband took it out of my hands ...," she says. "It's heartwrenching to know the decision you make is going to change the rest of your life, your children and your husband.


"I'm glad we didn't end up like this 15 years later," she says. Schiavo's parents, she believes, are "grasping at straws."


Frank Natarelli of Sun City, Ariz., heard that kind of skepticism when he instructed doctors to take necessary measures to help his 80-year-old father when he fell ill with pneumonia. He was on life support for 10 days, but lived another four years.


Natarelli recently signed a do-not-resuscitate order for his mother, who suffered a stroke. But he acknowledges the circumstances — not a piece of paper — would dictate whether he follows through with the directive.


"Until you're in my shoes, you can't make the decision," says Natarelli, adding that the same is true for the outsiders weighing in on the fate of Schiavo. "We're not there; we can't judge what is going on. If we were there seeing her clinging to life, seeing things her parents might be seeing, who knows? You have a feeling when a person wants to go."


Still others applaud the all-out effort in Congress and the courts on behalf of Schiavo.

"I believe in a government that would basically move heaven and earth for one person," says Cheryl Spencer of Louisville, Tenn., who ignored doctors who said her son would never come out of a coma after a motorcycle accident. He did.

John Sullivan understands such decisions are hardly clear-cut. He and his wife signed living wills directing that no extreme measures be taken to keep them alive. At age 81, Catherine Sullivan died of emphysema Jan. 31 after six months of hospice care at their home in Oakland, N.J.

And yet, Sullivan says, if the choice involved a child rather than a spouse, "I would find it difficult." In the Schiavo case, "if it was my daughter, I wouldn't want to say, 'Just close it out.'"

When Carrie Morris' 33-year-old son, Don, was hit by a drunken driver in 1995, doctors said he'd probably be in a vegetative state for the rest of his life. She was forced to play God: If he couldn't move and think again, she decided, she would let her son die.

Don lay in a coma for weeks, but survived. He now lives with his mother near Fort Worth, Texas, and owns a handyman business, though his IQ isn't what it once was and the left side of his throat remains paralyzed. Morris, nevertheless, doesn't second-guess her initial decision to let him die if the diagnosis was hopeless.

"It takes so much strength of character to let them go. No sacrifice that could ever be asked of you could be more difficult because, forever, you will live with the what-if," she says. "The family in Florida is caught in a very private hell, and there is no right answer."

But what bothers Morris, Daggett and others who've been there is that the private hell surrounding Schiavo has become so very public — fodder for politicians and debates about morality and, even, "murder." When Congress intervened, passing a bill that allowed Schiavo's parents to take their fight to federal court, Daggett watched angrily, thinking, "What are they doing?"

"I don't think that, personally, government, congressmen should be making that decision for the families," adds Cassandra Cotton, who was accused by a sibling of being a killer when Cotton instructed doctors not to put their cancer-stricken mother on a ventilator in 1991.

Cotton now works as the community relations and outreach coordinator at Nathan Adelson Hospice in Las Vegas, urging individuals to sign a directive spelling out their wishes.

Bonnie Morgan, a Phoenix hospice nurse grappling with her own painful decisions about the nourishment of her Parkinson's-plagued mother, hopes the legacy of the Schiavo case is a lesson.

"There's going to be some good that comes out of this — the conversations that people are having around their dinner tables," she says. "It should always be tough and we should always have people who care enough to have these hard conversations."
 
I was planning to post on this anyway, but not about Schiavo. She's irrelevant, a plant for who/which it really doesn't matter if she lives or dies. Sorry for being harsh, but fer Chrissakes people, there are more important things in this world.

What I was interested in was hearing people's opinion on Jeb's Terri's Law, one of the most violent rapings of any constitution I've ever seen. Brady, you said you were worried about international pressures on the supreme court, don't you think this kind of national political pressure poses a far greater threat to your constitution?

Good thing it got scraped.
 
Kharn- historically in the US you find corruption more relevant and clear at the state level. State politicans are much more subject to local political pressure. This is why the old rule that State's select their Senators was changed so that Senators got elected. State appointed Senators were too crooked.

Jeb is just appealing to a local constituency.

That said all this nonsense about activist judges is just that. Here the court is actually staying away from this issue that had already been decided, and it's the congressmen who are positioning for political gain. Politicans are bottom dwelling scum eaters.

As for Shaivo- honestly, she's been out for 15 years. This is not living but delayed death. Let her go.

That said, the idea of starving someone to death seems just cruel.
 
welsh said:
Kharn- historically in the US you find corruption more relevant and clear at the state level. State politicans are much more subject to local political pressure. This is why the old rule that State's select their Senators was changed so that Senators got elected. State appointed Senators were too crooked.

Jeb is just appealing to a local constituency.

That's not the point. Corruption or no corruption, don't you think it's pushing it when a senator or congressman can actually assrape the Constitution and get away with it? Don't you think something more needed to be done against Terri's law than removing it after a few months?

Also, this shows once more that your political system is fucked up. Down with the electoral college!

welsh said:
That said all this nonsense about activist judges is just that. Here the court is actually staying away from this issue that had already been decided, and it's the congressmen who are positioning for political gain. Politicans are bottom dwelling scum eaters.

That's the thing, this is not a congress issue and nor should it be. I find it hard to believe Americans are actually allowing Congress to dabble in these affairs. It's not their fucking place. Seperation of power, homes.

welsh said:
That said, the idea of starving someone to death seems just cruel.

Yeah, well, you can't inject them in the USA, it's against the law. Fucking inhumane laws, really. We'd just zap her here.
 
Ok, so here's another one, since no American injustice is being shouted about Terri's Law. Megan's Law

Man, you Americans infringe on civil rights A LOT, don't you?
 
You won't find much disagreement from me Kharn over anything any Bush has ever done said or believed in. Although I think that allowing someone to starve to death is a terrible way to go, even if she is unaware of the things around her. He's to assisted suicide-paging Dr. Kevorkian!

And Megan's Law is trying to balance the rights of sex offenders against the rights of parents and children. I agree with it until someone shows me a statistic that there is no difference in abuse rates between communities that use and don't use Megan's Law. I think the right of children to grow up safe supercedes the rights of molesters. But what we really need to do is find a way for child molesters to beat their demons and re-integrate into soceity, not stigmatize them. Or fix the parenting problems that lead to kids becoming child molesters in the first place.
 
Murdoch said:
And Megan's Law is trying to balance the rights of sex offenders against the rights of parents and children. I agree with it until someone shows me a statistic that there is no difference in abuse rates between communities that use and don't use Megan's Law. I think the right of children to grow up safe supercedes the rights of molesters. But what we really need to do is find a way for child molesters to beat their demons and re-integrate into soceity, not stigmatize them. Or fix the parenting problems that lead to kids becoming child molesters in the first place.

Megan's Law is not in effect in many other countries than the US, if I would hazard a guess, yet I fail to hear signs of rampant child abuse. You make sure Michael Jackson gets a real fair trial rather than making him into the hero of pederasts. Fucking circustrials.

I'm not saying I disagree with Megan's Law, though, not in the least. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we had the same law here, though Holland is famous for coupling all such things with rigid and carefully monitored reintigration of such felons into society. Stigmatising them really will only make them fall back onto their old habits, which is stupid

The point is that I often hear Americans, recently Bradylama, rant and rage about civil liberties, but for some reason in the USA this seems to boil down to the right to be obscenely rich or obscenely poor and the right to shoot people for hazy reasons. Other than that the USA seems to spout strings of anti-civil rights laws. There seems to be something seriously rotten in Denver
 
Kharn said:
The point is that I often hear Americans, recently Bradylama, rant and rage about civil liberties, but for some reason in the USA this seems to boil down to the right to be obscenely rich or obscenely poor and the right to shoot people for hazy reasons. Other than that the USA seems to spout strings of anti-civil rights laws. There seems to be something seriously rotten in Denver

No shit Sherlock! :lol:
 
The situation's pretty wicked, if you think a government can decide wether you must live or die... on one hand people like Schiavo and on the other death penalties.
It makes me shiver, it's like an orwellian nightmare.
 
welsh said:
But the way she dies is that she receives no food or water and basically starves to death.

While she "starves" to death, she is completely void of feeling or emotion and doesn't really feel it in any way shape or form. And if she does, ah well! No one will ever know :).

I think the whole issues a bunch of crap and not worth anywhere near the news coverage it has been receiving. The girl is dead, lets finalize it.
 
This can be realted to torture in my opinion. Saying she's in a vegitated state is untrue since she can respond.
 
uziel said:
This can be realted to torture in my opinion. Saying she's in a vegitated state is untrue since she can respond.

Dude, plants respond to sunlight and water too. Guess how much that proves?

Fact is several courts already decided there is no reason for her continued existence. She is a non-entity, by medical standards no longer human. Killing her is a blessing, not a murder.

Heck, the Dutch have been doing it for ages, but at least we just inject some quick poison. You people are just hardcore killers.
 
uziel said:
Wow you people are cheerful and optimistic.

There's nothing cheerful and optimistic about a woman being forced to live just because a number of people feel uncomfortable about the concept of death. Quite frankly, she has no choice in dying, but she has no choice in living either and *shocker* both are equally permanent, but the living thing brings a lot more discomfort.
 
In Russia two teenaged girls would have been hired to strangle her to death for 20 dollars already.

Damn lazy Westerners.
 
Oh God this subject...

This is going to shock many of you. I was in the same position at one point in my life. Let me say this...

Lets consider life for a second. Why do human rights extend to human beings? Well we have this funny idea that our feelings, thoughts, and the decisions we base them on are sacred. Why? Well many people believe in the existence of a soul that separates human from animal and even those that dont find that humans being able to comprehend as they do have the power (and with thinking) decide to put themselves above animals by making special priority to a persons human qualitys. (thinking, feeling, deciding) Well if you are...ahem...braindead you cannot think, feel, or decide. Trying to argue that you are still human is ok actually. If you take into account then that an insentient slime growing in the murk of a swamp is indeed also human. I mean a single cell can respire, reproduce, and in fact live. Yet...that is life, but is that human? NO! Saying humanity is based on trivial "instinct" that even a cockroach has is one of the most vile ideas Ive ever had touch my ears. What about mercy? Doesnt she have some sort of power to not let others decide her fate? Well she cant...so why force your will onto her? Thats inhuman...when clearly a person cant take part in the introspective qualitys that we hold dear. In the same position I would also want to die as I would really be capable of "living". A mechanical heartbeat is not living...

Let me just say to all of you listening that the moment your legally able to GET A LIVING WILL! You do not want others deciding your fate and robbing you of the life they think they're saving. You also dont want lawyers taking your familys money to decide how your money should be distrubited amongst the family that they got the money from...

My Mom died in a car accident when I was thirteen. At least I and my beliefs determined she "died". I came back from vacation with my Father to find out that while we were gone my Mom had gotten into a car accident that totaled her car. She was "alive" on life support. I entered the hospital room and my Mom was not only attached to multiple machines, but had a pressure gauge sticking out of her head. Basically she was lifeless, but for the registering of the heartbeat played out on a screen near her. Some technician explained the necessity of a pressure gauge since they thought they could "resuscitate" her mind since she was in a coma or some shit. I immediately knew what she would have done.

She was removed of course. I would feel downright sinful to allow a dignified soul to languish as some sort of "undead" and I still feel I made the right decision.

Dont feel bad for me. That was a long time ago...

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
At least you got to make the decision VD.

The fight over Veggie has been going on for over a decade. Busholini Lite tried to railroad a law through that the state Supremes overturned. Then Tom DeLay (Fucktard - TX) got involved and once again, the courts rebuked the plea. And now they're trying every trick they can think of to put her into state's custody so they can keep her alive. My question is why aren't the Florida taxpayers screaming at these people to quit wasting their tax money?
 
Commissar Lauren said:
In Russia two teenaged girls would have been hired to strangle her to death for 20 dollars already.

In Soviet Russia, Schiavo would have strangled two teenaged girls!
 
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