Sixty years ago- Hiroshima

Here we go again. Much emotionally loaded fluff and little or no consideration of the actual circumstances.

This is not a question of whether or not dropping big bombs on civilians is good or bad. It is not a question of whether or not these events were brutal and terrible (as war tends to be). It is a question of whether or not it was, at the time, with the knowledge at hand, a defensible decision to use the bomb(s)*. This is a question of prospects, not consequences. Even then, people could not see the future.

It is very cheap and easy to sit sixty years later, with perfect hindsight and no responsibilities whatsoever, wringing one's hands and saying that under no circumstances should this particular weapon have been used. But it is both arrogant and false to extrapolate Truman's line of thinking at the time from our own knowledge and opinions and guesswork and pet theories of conspiracy or imperialism, or play armchair general and claim to have known with perfect clarity which would be the best option all things considered.

If you say that you would have been against use of the bomb under all circumstances, you must realize that you would have been for the alternative scenario. Of course, no one wants to think about or look too closely at that, and since it never actually came to pass - will you look at that, none suffered or died at all in it! There's nothing to take responsibility for! Wooo!


*I'm assuming here that "lust for revenge", "showing off for the Soviets" and "testing the bomb's impact on real live people" are accepted as Bad motives, and that "avoiding larger bloodshed or possibly smaller bloodshed but involving much more non-aggressor blood" is accepted as a Good motive.
 
Per said:
It is very cheap and easy to sit sixty years later, with perfect hindsight and no responsibilities whatsoever, wringing one's hands and saying that under no circumstances should this particular weapon have been used. But it is both arrogant and false to extrapolate Truman's line of thinking at the time from our own knowledge and opinions and guesswork and pet theories of conspiracy or imperialism, or play armchair general and claim to have known with perfect clarity which would be the best option all things considered.

Yes it is. Just change instead yours: - that under no circumstances should this particular weapon have been used.- into oposite.
 
Per said:
Funny, I can see what Bradylama means at every turn.

Yes its funny. You have also seen that i just enticed someone to say that i can burn his sister alive infront of him and posibly make him think it was, after all, alright? :lol:
I guess you would too..in desperate atempt to always be right.
The One who Knows....

All i would have to do would be to come up with a good enough story.
Now to me that means that person is lower than bacteria.
But to you it could be an idol i suposse.
 
What we are discussing here is a purely academic question, whether or not should the bomb be dropped.

What we fail to take into account is the untold suffering o people who were exposed to the effects of the bomb - not only the explosion, but radiation and fallout.
 
There you go double posting again.

Sina said:
Just change instead yours: - that under no circumstances should this particular weapon have been used.- into oposite.

The opposite of that is "under some circumstances should this particular weapon have been used". You consistently fail to see that you are the one arguing an extreme point of view (needless to say without shouldering the burden of proof) and that I am merely pointing this out. Ironically, if there's something that could be used to "justify anything", it's the belief that alternatives can be ruled out without rational grounds.

Now to me that means that person is lower than bacteria.

Bacteria and what's below them are presumably amoral. But never mind, you obviously have no clue what Bradylama was trying to say.

Edit: Grizzly, I assure you that I am thinking of that as well. Even if we count all those people as casualties, - and even if we assume that those effect were eminently predictable at the time - we still get hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides of the abstract scales. It's not a clear-cut decision no matter which way you look at it.
 
It is a question of whether or not it was, at the time, with the knowledge at hand, a defensible decision to use the bomb(s)*. This is a question of prospects, not consequences. Even then, people could not see the future.

I guess that when they actually built the bombs they had no idea how it would work and maybe they just thought everything would work out if they dropped the bomb.
N O it was NOT a defensible decision. I probably won't be able to tell you why as you see people in numbers.
Instead of dropping the bombs they could negotiate or what else. They had the knowledge what would happen, not what would happen if they didn't dropped the bombs, but they knew that many innocent people was going to get killed. That is not defensible. They should have played it safe, dropping a bomb on someone is just another way to get enemies and casualties.


If you say that you would have been against use of the bomb under all circumstances, you must realize that you would have been for the alternative scenario. Of course, no one wants to think about or look too closely at that, and since it never actually came to pass - will you look at that, none suffered or died at all in it! There's nothing to take responsibility for! Wooo!

Yes I would choose the alternative scenario, and I am sorry but I can't show you what would have happened.
But I doubt that my choice would have killed 300 000 people. If it would have, then I'm sorry, didn't thought that was possible considering all the things I have ever read in the subject. No I am not responsible for any casualties, but if I was for the nuking, I would still not be responsible for any deaths as I live in the year 2000.

We can at least say that nukes should not be used today with the knowledge we got.

You can say whatever you wan't to say, I won't change my mind. I can tell you that killing people is the last solution but you will say that the other option would have killed more. Whatever, millions have discussed it and I don't think I will find an amazing argument who will convert the non-belivers. I am out of this.
 
Jahakob said:
I probably won't be able to tell you why as you see people in numbers.

Thank you for the psychoanalysis. The reason I mention numbers is that they are often used as an argument in order to show that Truman could not have believed that the bomb would save lives all told. Is it any more unreasonable to compare numbers than to claim that any number of casualties from conventional means is preferable to any number of casualties from atomic bombing, which frankly should be obviously absurd to everyone?

They should have played it safe,

Have you missed the little factoid that there was a war going on? For the Americans to stand back and assume that everything would work out even if they did nothing (bomb or invade) was thankfully out of the question.

dropping a bomb on someone is just another way to get enemies and casualties.

Sigh. The Japanese were the enemy. (And the aggressors.) There were going to be casualties. These were givens.

We can at least say that nukes should not be used today with the knowledge we got.

You can say whatever you wan't to say, I won't change my mind. I can tell you that killing people is the last solution but you will say that the other option would have killed more.

Fine. Tell me that you would never kill Bradylama's Candarian Demon sister to save a million from her vile clutches because killing people is not a preferable solution to waiting while they are killed, and I won't say a word on the subject again.
 
I don't feel like wading through 3 pages. My gf just went to Japan in May with 6 others from her school to visit a peace conference they hold every 4 years in Hiroshima. The people there don't hold us (civilians) responsible for what happens.

My gf now is all pissed off at the bomb, since she found out all this crazy info on the people and how it affected everything. We watched a show on the anniversary about how it affected people as well.

Yes, it was a horrible thing to have happened. I think that maybe it wasn't the smartest move to drop 2 of these atomic bombs. The US only did it because it was a new technology and they wanted to see what would happen in a real circumstance. The History Channel even mentioned that the US was not bombing the planned drop-site due to the fact that they wanted to test the actual damage it would do.

The US also firebombed civilian cities as well. We really didn't play nice with the Japanese, even though they attacked a Military base.

Now the Japanese are trying to raise awareness about DU weapons that the US is using in the middle east. Every Japanese student and many others in different nations have seen this video IN SCHOOL, about the radiation and poison of these armor piercing bullets, yet Americans have no knowledge of it. That's sick.
 
Now the Japanese are trying to raise awareness about DU weapons that the US is using in the middle east.

That would've been exactly what he was talking about, yes.

The US also firebombed civilian cities as well. We really didn't play nice with the Japanese, even though they attacked a Military base.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military facilities as well. Many civilians were killed during the attack on Pearl Harbor, and if, hypothetically, an atom-bomb had been dropped, then the civilian death toll would have been nothing to balk at.

The Japanese weren't exactly playing nice with us, either. They just weren't in range to target civilians. (though they did try with those jet stream balloon bombs)

Perhaps next time you'll read threads so you don't miss out on this key information.
 
It seems like Per, Brady and I are the only people here not resorting to "OMG nukes are bad! They were civilians you asshole! :x"

I think Per has articulated my position on this topic well enough. Judging the actions of the people in charge with the knowledge of hindsight is unfair to them. Keep in mind a few facts:

1. The Japanese were the aggressors in the war, they initiated the war in the pacific and a global Japanese empire was their goal.

2. The Japanese didn't exactly treat the civilians of areas they annexed well to say the least. As a nation, this at least partially exempts them from the discretion of attacking their civilians.
 
calculon000 said:
It seems like Per, Brady and I are the only people here not resorting to "OMG nukes are bad! They were civilians you asshole! :x"

The interesting thing here really is the question what set Hiroshima and Nagasaki apart from the other countless atrocities committed by both sides during the wars?

The answer is more or less nothing.

The whole psychology concerning nuclear weapons and their long-lasting radiation is something that stems from the cold war. They're supposed to be the ultimate mean weapon, despite the fact that the only mean thing about them is that they radiate an area for a long time. We've invented a lot meaner stuff in our days, really, napalm, for instance, might be one of them, if used properly

I don't really like taking sides on this discussion plus I think this was mentioned in passing somewhere else in this thread, but I wonder if the whole nuke-psychology that is caused by 50 years of scare-propaganda being broadcast all over the world is what really makes those Japanese towns into the ultimate atrocities. That seems to be killing a lot of the debate

But as an atrocity it just stood amongst many others just like it.

The Allies can somewhat takes the higher grounds, but mostly because all of them, except the USSR, had it as their goal to stop the enemy and then return things to the status quo, not to conquer and incorporate the enemy, like Japanaziland.

As a means to noble ends, people often blink at atrocities. Justly so, if you ask me, and if you do so for most of this war, why not do so for these towns? Eh.

Also funny how people whine more about US atrocities than USSR ones, but I guess that's coz the USSR's naughtiness is well-established
 
The USSR also doesn't exist. I think people wonder on some subconcious level why America continues to thrive despite all of the injustices its commited.
 
Bradylama said:
The USSR also doesn't exist.

!

Bradylama said:
I think people wonder on some subconcious level why America continues to thrive despite all of the injustices its commited.

Do you mean any human "empire" or nation ever thrived without commiting injustices?
 
Do you mean any human "empire" or nation ever thrived without commiting injustices?

Not in the least, but that doesn't stop people from thinking that only "moral" nations should be the ones that succeed.
 
Per said:
There you go double posting again.

Sina said:
Just change instead yours: - that under no circumstances should this particular weapon have been used.- into oposite.

The opposite of that is "under some circumstances should this particular weapon have been used". You consistently fail to see that you are the one arguing an extreme point of view (needless to say without shouldering the burden of proof) and that I am merely pointing this out. Ironically, if there's something that could be used to "justify anything", it's the belief that alternatives can be ruled out without rational grounds.

Double posting?

I see that you can just invent something by your liking but you could explain yourself from time to time.

The oposite of that line ( which you invented and tryed to put in my mouth by the way ) would be that under all circumstances that weapon should be used. if i was to be picky about it, but its something you said not me anyway.

You consistantly invent what i am realy thinking and then atack what you suppose i am thinking, which is yours thinking realy....by the way.
You dont even try to understand what i am saying but just turn it the way you feel i MUST BE THINKING and go on to say your opinion about it.

because YOU MUST BE RIGHT, RIGHT?

And that -amoral and moral - lines are yours budy, not mine.
 
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