Slavs were the first Europeans!Do you believe it?

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Fas Ist

It Wandered In From the Wastes
I am not very competent in that theory,because I was informed of it today :D
From the PCT by Mario Alinei:

7.5.5 The problem of the Thracians: a new hypothesis

The reconstruction of the prehistoric context in which the Thracians slowly emerge has been attempted several times, and lastly by Hoddinott (1981), but in my opinion without noticeable novelties. Even the most recent discoveries, in fact, confirm what we alread know: the Thracian power is just one of the many manifestations of the new stratified societies and of the new elites of a military and superegional type which characterize Chalcolithic and Bronze, and the formation of which was triggered by the incursions of the kurgan groups and their successors, coming from the Asiatic steppes. In the new PCT vision, this twofold, but in itself meager result produces the following commentary: (A) we must keep in consideration that the immediate neighbors of the Thracians ancestors – whoever they were – were these intrusive kurgan groups; and (B) in the light of the equation of the kurgan people with the Turkic group, the existence of the Turkic Thrace of historical times, the Turkic original character of the Bulgarians, and the so many aspects of the close relationship bwetween Anatolia, the Agean Sea and the Balkans become much more relevant than we have suspected until now (see chapter III of Alinei 2000). A single example: the typical shape of the sica, the national weapon of the Thracians (a knife with a curved blade and a sharp point, similar to a zanna di cinghiale (cp. Plinius H.N. XII 1: “apri dentium sicas”, and see the illustration in Rich 1869), used by Thracian gladiators in Rome, is typical of centro-Asiatic metallurgy.
Another commentary is triggered by Hoddinott’s conclusion, which identifies the earliest sure manifestation of the Thracians in the Bronze Age Carpatian culture of Otomani-Wietenberg (in Transylvania, Hungary, Eastern Slovakia). According to the most recent research, this culture represents a continuation of the Baden and Vuиedol cultures, and through the latter, is connected to the steppe cultures (see above and cp. for example DP s.v. Vuиedol). In the light of the preceding remarks, then, on one hand we could conclude that also Thracians underwent the same Turkic influences as most other Southern Slavic languages; on the other – as both Baden and Vuиedol in the framework of the PCT can be read as Slavophone cultures, we could advance the hypothesis that the Thacianas were a Slavic group, which would have been subject to stronger Turkic influences than the other Slavic languages, and eventually extinguished.
A final remark: Herodotus, as is known, describes the Thracians as the most numerous people after the Indians. Mallory comments that it is a “sad irony” they “have left no modern descendant of their language” (Mallory 1989, 72). But is it really so? First of all, if it is hard to admit that a numerous people might completely extinguish, it is even less likely that this pre-existing people would have left no traces in the archaeological record. And since, as we have seen, the demographic explosion of the Slavs must be placed in Neolithic, we could then advance the hypothesis that Thracians was the name that Herodotus gave to the Slavs, owing to the fact the Thracians were one of the most powerful and representative elites of Slavic speaking Eastern Europe, seen with Herodotus’ inevitably colonialist eyes. In a first approximation, then, the Thracians would appear to be a Southern Slavic geo-variational group, out of which came a Bronze age elite, first dominating then extinguished.
This hypothesis could be further developed and refined in the light of the results of research on the Thracian language which, with the caution due to the scarcity of materials, can be so summarized:
(1) Thracian is an IE satem language, like Baltic and Slavic;
(2) as discovered by Trubaиev (see above), Thracian place names show a surprising similarity with the Baltic ones;
(3) in some cases, however, Thracian affinities seem stronger with Slavic: the Thr. place-name suffix -dizos e -diza, for example, to which the meaning of ‘fortress’ has been attributed on the basis of the comparison with Gr. teĩkhos ‘wall’ (IEW 244), has a much closer counterpart in the metathetic forms of OSl. ziћdoã, zydati ‘to build’ zydŭ, zidŭ ‘wall’, than in the Baltic ones (also methatetic), meaning ‘to form’. And the vocalism of the Thr. river name Stry¤mōn and place name Stry¤mē seems closer to Pol. strumieс ‘brook’ and OSlav. struja ‘stream’ than to Latv stràume ‘stream’ (IEW 1003).
The most plausible hypothesis would be then that Thracian was a conservative type of Slavic, still preserving Baltic features and spoken by a peripheral group of Southern Slavs, somehow parallel to the Northern peripheral Balts (following the geolinguistic well-known rule, according to which the center innovates, and the periphery preserves).


Page 26:
The areal asymetry of the Slavic areal distribution

"Now from a geolinguistic point of view, there is just one explanation possible for this peculiar and transparent areal configuration: Southern Slavic must form the earlier core, while the two Northern branchings must be a later development, each with its proper history and identity. No other explanation is possible, unless one challenges the very raison d' ethre of IE and Proto-Slavic reconstruction, besides common sense.
Needless to say, this simple remark demolishes the whole construction of the Slavic homeland in Middle Eastern Europe and of Slavic migration in traditional terms, as well as all of its corollaries."

Page 32.
The Slavic ethnogenesis in the PCT
Palaeolithic and Mesolithic

"When the glacial cap covered North-Eastern Europe (around 25000 BC, my note), the Northern frontier of the Uralic as well as of the Balto-Slavic groups of the North must have been somewhere in the Middle Eastern Europe; their Southern frontier, however, would have still be formed by the Black sea, the Greek peninsula and the Adriatic."

Page 33

" The Slavic postglacial area (11000 - 6500 BC, my note) would then form a kind of triangle, the Southern corner of which would correspond to Macedonia, the western frontier of which would pass along the Italid Dalmatia, and delimit the rest of ex-Yugoslavia, Hungary, ex-Czechoslovakia, and southern Poland, and the Eastern frontier of which would delimit Bulgaria, Romania, Western Ukraine, Belorussia and parts of Middle Russia."

Also:
http://www.maknews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=315
http://www.continuitas.com/
http://www.continuitas.com/interdisciplinary.pdf
 
Oh. I misread tha titleand thought you meant that the first Europeans were slaves. Which would raise an interesting question: "Who enslaved them?"

At any rate, Slavs rule! Of course, being the first isn't exactly what one might have expected, and eventually, we've passed the rod to Latini, Franks, Teutons and finally a bunch of teabags :P
 
Wait a second- What's the deal here? Caucasions move up from the Caucuses into Europe, are subsequently invaded by barbarian hordes?

Summarize this for me.
 
welsh said:
Wait a second- What's the deal here? Caucasions move up from the Caucuses into Europe, are subsequently invaded by barbarian hordes?

Summarize this for me.
:?: :?:

I am working on the "question"
 
Are you now claiming the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Europe were 'Slavic' (an anachronism as that might be)?

No they weren't.
 
Jebus said:
Are you now claiming the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Europe were 'Slavic' (an anachronism as that might be)?

No they weren't.
You must realize that the old theories are being more then just challenged and will most deffinitely fall in some 20-30 years.

Check this Thracian soldier called Bastarnae:
Bastarnae.png

They carried a weapon called sica or rhompaia on which they impaled heads. The helmet which they had were very popular in Rome for gladiators.
Exactly, the weapon sica was from Middle East.
BTW-Spartacus - the famous rebel was a Tracian from today's Bulgaria
 
He looks like he just got from an all night Order gay S/M party, look he's got a whip, leather boots, a skirt and an S/M mask. :mrgreen:
 
Sovz said:
Was ist? ? ? said:
BTW-Spartacus - the famous rebel was a Tracian from today's Bulgaria

wow, you must be so PROUD.


nationalism is whats wrong with humanity.
36_11_6.gif

Ahahaha-you are so wrong


and envious
Just shut up with your nazi bullshits-you are no more interesting!
 
Was ist? ? ? said:
Jebus said:
Are you now claiming the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Europe were 'Slavic' (an anachronism as that might be)?

No they weren't.
You must realize that the old theories are being more then just challenged and will most deffinitely fall in some 20-30 years.

How's that going to happen, then? Sites like Atapuererca (TD6) and Orce in Spain, Soleilhac and Le Vallonet in France and Monte Poggiolo in Italy are all (except for Orce perhaps, I don't quite rememeber) dated at the latest in the Interglacial OIS 13 (between 528 000 and 478 000 BP. Lots of academics even claim they are over a million years old. That predates your article's earliest date by 450 000 years minimum, my friend. Also, considering the fact that the article says the 'Slavic area' reached from the Urals to Greece, and the maximal Western point would be the Dalmatian coast, then how the hell do you explain that the oldest human remains in Europe were found in Iberia (earliest, IIRC - came from Morocco), France and Turkey?

Also, that article is woefully badly quoted. You have taken things completely out of context there; but it seems to me that that text is about the Thracian language - a language that has left no trace, and has puzzled historians for centuries (I too had to sit to a boring lecture about it) - and not about 'the Slavs being the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Europe'.

Check this Thracian soldier called Bastarnae:
Bastarnae.png

They carried a weapon called sica or rhompaia on which they impaled heads. The helmet which they had were very popular in Rome for gladiators.
Exactly, the weapon sica was from Middle East.
BTW-Spartacus - the famous rebel was a Tracian from today's Bulgaria

Whoa!

Yeah, no shit - I played Rome: Total war too. Those Thracians get raped in the ass by every faction surrounding them.

't Is what Slavs are all about.
 
Jebus said:
Also, that article is woefully badly quoted. You have taken things completely out of context there; but it seems to me that that text is about the Thracian language - a language that has left no trace, and has puzzled historians for centuries (I too had to sit to a boring lecture about it) - and not about 'the Slavs being the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens in Europe'.

Agreed. The article is simply about the question what the Thracians were and it argues, a bit poorly too, that they were Slavs.

The claim that this means the Slavs were first comes from was ist.
 
How's that going to happen, then? Sites like Atapuererca (TD6) and Orce in Spain, Soleilhac and Le Vallonet in France and Monte Poggiolo in Italy are all (except for Orce perhaps, I don't quite rememeber) dated at the latest in the Interglacial OIS 13 (between 528 000 and 478 000 BP. Lots of academics even claim they are over a million years old. That predates your article's earliest date by 450 000 years minimum, my friend.
Where did they come from?Fell from Mars?
 
Was ist? ? ? said:
How's that going to happen, then? Sites like Atapuererca (TD6) and Orce in Spain, Soleilhac and Le Vallonet in France and Monte Poggiolo in Italy are all (except for Orce perhaps, I don't quite rememeber) dated at the latest in the Interglacial OIS 13 (between 528 000 and 478 000 BP. Lots of academics even claim they are over a million years old. That predates your article's earliest date by 450 000 years minimum, my friend.
Where did they come from?Fell from Mars?


Morocco.
 
Jebus said:
Was ist? ? ? said:
How's that going to happen, then? Sites like Atapuererca (TD6) and Orce in Spain, Soleilhac and Le Vallonet in France and Monte Poggiolo in Italy are all (except for Orce perhaps, I don't quite rememeber) dated at the latest in the Interglacial OIS 13 (between 528 000 and 478 000 BP. Lots of academics even claim they are over a million years old. That predates your article's earliest date by 450 000 years minimum, my friend.
Where did they come from?Fell from Mars?


Morocco.
They might be the first Homo Sapiens in Europe,but the proofs that they came from Morocco are very few.If you are right
1-they were not your ancestors
2-they were black men(Negroes)So-where did they go?To the New World?(or chandged their skin colour for 5000 years)
3-they weren't civilised people
 
Slavic != Sapiens, remember that.

And if you forget just have a read of my post history :-P
 
Was ist? ? ? said:
1-they were not your ancestors
2-they were black men(Negroes)So-where did they go?To the New World?(or chandged their skin colour for 5000 years)
3-they weren't civilised people

1- Why not?
2- If our ancestors didn't come from Africoasia or whatever, where did they come from. And yes, skin colour does adapt.
3- Oh, and early slavs were? "Civilised" is a rather relative term. You can apply it to the Thracians because they had iron weapons to hack into people with if you want, but it doesn't make them more or less our ancestors
 
It is a known fact,that your ancestors came from Asia-you speak Indo-European language,not Afro-Maroccan!
I had forgotten about that,when I was writing my previous post:
The first Homo Sapiens didn't come to Europe from Morocco!Noone can cross the 30 kilomeret Gibraltar,where the Mediterranean meets the Atlantic ocean,because
-The streams are frightening
-Try crossing the Gibraltar with those encient "technologies"

The Homo Sapienses came to Europe throuth Egypt and the Middle East(some settled down there)The others reached the Black sea and went round it(they went North-East)
The proofs,that the first human came to Europe via the Gibraltar and Marocco are few and they aren't logical.You can also say,that those people crossed the Atlantic ocean and reached the new world.
 
Was ist? ? ? said:
It is a known fact,that your ancestors came from Asia-you speak Indo-European language,not Afro-Maroccan!
I had forgotten about that,when I was writing my previous post:
The first Homo Sapiens didn't come to Europe from Morocco!Noone can cross the 30 kilomeret Gibraltar,where the Mediterranean meets the Atlantic ocean,because
-The streams are frightening
-Try crossing the Gibraltar with those encient "technologies"

The Homo Sapienses came to Europe throuth Egypt and the Middle East(some settled down there)The others reached the Black sea and went round it(they went North-East)
The proofs,that the first human came to Europe via the Gibraltar and Marocco are few and they aren't logical.You can also say,that those people crossed the Atlantic ocean and reached the new world.

How can you refute the fact that they are there? Wether it's 'impossible' or not, those sites do exist. And those sites are dated half a million years ago.

Plus, plenty of other peoples already lived in Europe in 25 000 BC, the late paleolithicum. Other Indo-European peoples too. Look at the incredibly famous rock-paitings in Lascaux (France) or Altamira (Spain), for instance. I wouldn't know what people made them, though, because ethnicity is not something we pay all that much attention to in our education system. It's not as important to us as it is to you, apparently. Incidentally, North - Eastern Europe (West-Russia, Moldavia, Ukraine, Romania, etc.) was actually the very last area of Europe to be colonised.

Frankly, I guess you'd have to really *want* to believe the Slavs were the first humans on the continent to be able to believe it, since only a fool would fail to notice all the evidence to the contrary. 25 000 BC? Good lord man, there had been Homo Sapiens Sapiens around hundreds of thousand of years before that.

Also, about your 'it's impossible to cross Gibraltar' theory:

a. It's quite likely Homo species crossed Gibraltar BEFORE it was ever a strait. The geology of the world changes constantly, and seas and rivers appeared where there were none before. Unless you believe the Aborigines kanoo-ed from Africa to Australia some hundreds of thousand years ago, of course. *

b. One also has to consider the climate of those times: even if the Homo Sapiens Sapiens hadn't crossed Gibraltar (if Gibratar überhaupt even existed then) before 25 000 BC; they'd basically be able to cross it every winter. Ice Ages, anyone? It most likely froze up every winter between 200 000 - 7 500 BC or so.

c. Incidentally, a lot of the Homo Sapiens Sapiens that had arrived in Europe before the Slavs arrived came through the the Middle East and Turkey, too.


Also, Kharn: it seems highly unlikely to me the Thracians had iron weapons at 25 000 BC or before. The first iron ever used in Europe (that we know of) was in the Greek cities between 800 and 600 BC.





Also, 'Was Ist? ? ?' according to every source I checked the Thracians, and the Thracian culture, only existed from 1500 BC until their conquest by the Romans in the first century BC. Before that, you had the Proto-Thracians, and who only existed from (maximum)6000-1500 BC.

Care to comment?





* EDIT: Swum, actually, because they obviously couldn't make any sort of vessel yet then.
 
Jebus said:
Whoa!

Yeah, no shit - I played Rome: Total war too. Those Thracians get raped in the ass by every faction surrounding them.

't Is what Slavs are all about.

I've been wanting to play as Thrace for quite some time now just to see what I could do with them. When I installed the All Factions mod, I just ended up playing as Scythia, and they were the first people I've conquered.
 
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