Some suggested issues with Fallout 3 that aren't issues

[URAGR8M8]

I've been reading some of the criticisms towards the direction taken in Fallout 3 and whilst there is an almost overwhelming amount of criticism which is more than accurate, I couldn't help but notice a few things I fail to agree with. There are two big issues regarding the role and disposition of two groups - the Brotherhood of Steel and the Supermutants.



The Brotherhood of Steel as 'Knights'
I've heard it mentioned that the BoS do not follow a mandate of 'saving the peoples of the wastelands.' Usually what is cited is the fact that the BoS general in the first Fallout states that the Brotherhood are merely doing the best to survive in a harsh world.

True... over 100 years ago. A century is a long time and I would actually find it ridiculous if the Brotherhood had not found themselves drawn into the world to some significant capacity. A century of existence would entail a **** load of politics and changes in the organisation. What's more there could be various reasons as to why they would task themselves with protecting the wastelands: A means of protecting themselves, the establishment of order to reduce threats made to them and to vitals such as their supply sources and lines, a moral/ethical change in direction (particulary as time wore on and the immediate concern of survival dissipated).

In short, I hardly see how the management of this society over 100 years ago would perpetuate into the far future. As far as I am concerned the Brotherhood could quite likely expand their operations, politics and concerns in a fashion similar to the non-canon Fallout Tactics.



Aggressive Supermutants
It's true that by the time of Fallout 2 Supermutants had been accepted into society, but in this case we are talking specifically about the Supermutants who fled east immediatently after the events of the first Fallout game. In the first Fallout game we saw that the Supermutants were highly aggressive towards the player and agreed with the Master's attitude towards humans.

If we are talking about these remnants which have travelled to the east coast it does not seem unlikely that they would have continued to follow the beliefs of the Master including the dislike of humans (even the friendly Marcus from Fallout 2 found himself fighting with a BoS knight when he was fleeing after the concluding events of the first game.

If they don't talk at all I could definitely see how this would seem strange and out of place, but the mutants of the first game were aggressive and unfriendly towards humans (and the vast majority of them were stupid despite how the FEV was meant to work). If they made their way to the east coast they may not have changed much. Events may have been such that there were no opportunities for the mutants to find acceptance amongst non-mutants.

The hardship involved in the migration may have helped to cement their views towards non-mutants. Perhaps the trek between the west and east coasts did not yeld significant populations with which the mutants could have integrated with, or maybe they simply ran into more humans fearful of them who simply attacked them or avoided them. I don't think it is out of the question that the group of mutants which we will find in the east will be different to those found in the west in Fallout 2 (and, interestingly, they will therefor be similar to those found in the first Fallout).



Feel free to disagree with my points and explain why. Also discuss some other major issues to give me something to think about and think of some ways in which some of the current issues could be resolved or could prove not to be issues at all as I have found with the aforementioned.

 

[Sander]

The fact that something is theoretically possible within a setting doesn't make it fitting for said setting.

 

[URAGR8M8]

The fact that something is theoretically possible within a setting doesn't make it fitting for said setting.

But the development of the Brotherhood of Steel over 100 years is not incompatable with the setting. Like I said before, failure to see any major changes within this organisation would be far more out of place.

As for the Supermutants, I maintain that what how they are said to be portrayed in Fallout 3 is not much different from the original game. The second game involves changes in a society which is completely isolated from the new setting - for that reason it would actually make more sense that this separated movement of Supermutants would act more like those found in the first game rather than the second.

 

[Brother None]

In short, I hardly see how the management of this society over 100 years ago would perpetuate into the far future. As far as I am concerned the Brotherhood could quite likely expand their operations, politics and concerns in a fashion similar to the non-canon Fallout Tactics.

Oh yes, the Brotherhood changing is pretty much inevitable. It happens in many takes on canon, whether it be the Steel Dawn ending of Fallout 1 or the story of Van Buren.

The thing is: a do-gooder, "knightly" organisation set out to "protect the innocents" is not just something the BoS is unlikely to become, it is something that doesn't fit into Fallout's setting period. And it definitely doesn't sit well with the BoS' insular, technocentric past.

Every organisation in Fallout 1/2 worked for their own best interest. It's a dog-eat-dog, post-apocalyptic world. Now you're telling me a contingent of BoS soldiers will drop their primary order (search for technology) to protect innocents?

Impossible? No. But it makes no sense.

Aggressive Supermutants

I'm fairly sure "aggressive supermutants" was never the issue.

The issue is that it has been hinted at that there is no talking/reasoning possible with them. I'm not just talking random, nameless Supermutants, I'm still waiting for confirmation that we'll have our Harold/Lou Tenant/Master types.

Because even the stupid Supermutants aren't unthinking.

 

[Glowing Ghouls]

The BOS changes simply dont fit in, period, unless its a small contingent that used the vertibird tech from FO2 to head to the east coast (and just arrived) with a specific tech grap related purpose.

Oh, wait, vertibirds require refueling, so even that doesnt fit in.



As for the mutants...... The ONLY way it'd fit in is ,,,,,,,,,

um, actualy I cant think of a way to make it fit in that wouldnt suck.


Anyone else ?

 

[URAGR8M8]

Oh yes, the Brotherhood changing is pretty much inevitable. It happens in many takes on canon, whether it be the Steel Dawn ending of Fallout 1 or the story of Van Buren.

The thing is: a do-gooder, "knightly" organisation set out to "protect the innocents" is not just something the BoS is unlikely to become, it is something that doesn't fit into Fallout's setting period. And it definitely doesn't sit well with the BoS' insular, technocentric past.

Every organisation in Fallout 1/2 worked for their own best interest. It's a dog-eat-dog, post-apocalyptic world. Now you're telling me a contingent of BoS soldiers will drop their primary order (search for technology) to protect innocents?

Impossible? No. But it makes no sense.

I covered this - I did note that what appears to be selfless and 'knightly' could have alterer motives. There are many advantages to be had from playing a part in creating and maintaining order. Think of international relations, the first thing we learn is that countries only look out for the interests of their own citizens - and yet we see many instances in which nations have gotten involved in humanitarian endeavours or other such actions which can be viewed as 'good' and 'selfless'.

If the intention is for the Brotherhood to be nothing more than a bunch of moral knights fighting for justice than I agree that it makes no sense. But such actions can serve all sorts of purposes other than simply 'doing the right thing.' I listed a few such reasons in my first post.

I think it is important to note that the world has changed somewhat, in the same way that Fallout 2 felt far less desperate than the first game, things may have become easier and more developed in certain areas. The reality may now be that it is both practical and beneficial for the BoS to involve themselves at such a level.

 

[URAGR8M8]

The BOS changes simply dont fit in, period, unless its a small contingent that used the vertibird tech from FO2 to head to the east coast (and just arrived) with a specific tech grap related purpose.

Oh, wait, vertibirds require refueling, so even that doesnt fit in.

What's the range of a Vertibird? I mean I would assume that they run on micro fusion which is still fairly obtainable in the Fallout world. I would think that a trip around the world would pose little problem considering we have modern jets which can just about do it.

As for the mutants...... The ONLY way it'd fit in is ,,,,,,,,,

um, actualy I cant think of a way to make it fit in that wouldnt suck.


Anyone else ?

Do you mean the non-talking only a generic enemy mutants? If so the only thing I could think of would be another (maybe modified or mutated) FEV infection.

If you mean them being similar to the mutants of the first Fallout expand on where my points don't make sense, I still think the migrants of the first Fallout could be what we are going to encounter.

 

[Per]

Don't double post, use the edit button.

 

[Darkpsyco]

i seriously see no point in protecting the innocent for the BOS...the enclave and master were the only people posing a real threat to them...wasting resource to protect people that arent of any value to them is simply stupid...what kind of technology could they offer them?even vault city wouldnt allow everyone into their rank and trade with only a selected few that they absolutly needed,and the BOS is about 10x more strict then them from what you can see in fallout....only because they are called paladin doesnt make them the freaking protector of the people....bethesda should seriously play some fallout before doing stuff like that

but will they find a way to explain it...OF COURSE...just look at how World of warcraft introduced spaceship...its really easy to create backstory to explain everything in any game...dumb retard that know fallout only by name and reputation will accept anything...they will go like "well their paladin of course they defend the people"

 

[Deviant]

Hi

So i've been reading some about this and i disagree alot with what you people say.


First of all, there are several factions within the BoS. We have the Western, Midwestern and Capital Eastern factions that ive heard of.

The western are those we have seen in FO1 and FO2. Fairly insular and neutral in the games. They mostly move when something is a threat to them specificly. Of course, this attitude might have changed after the whole Enclave affair.

The Midwestern faction is that we play in Fallout Tactics. I dont know how canon it is however. They had a more open approach to the wastelands and activily recruited from and traded with the natives for food and recruits. This was an offshoot of the western BoS that were sent on a mission because they disagreed alot with the Elders on the whole insular thing.

And the Eastern is an expedition sent by the Western after the runin with the enclave. They were to travel to D.C and look for technology and investigate reputed supermutant activity. I think there may be a schism coming there too.

Seeing as both the Midwestern and the Eastern expeditions were pretty small in scale, one would have to assume that they recruit from the human stock where they happen to be.

They would also need resources like food and such, and that would probably have to come from native sources. Remember, they dont necessarily have any vault tek around to help them purify water for a big army.

Also, its been established that the brotherhood strongly opposes mutants. And while mutants dont really die from age, they get senile and die of the wastelands when they loose their wits. They are also sterile.

So, if supermutants are around, that means someone is making them. And that alone is reason to go and protect regular humans. For each human that is taken, a new supermutant foe is made, after all.


So it actually makes perfect sense.

 

[Moving Target]

First of all, there are several factions within the BoS. We have the Western, Midwestern and Capital Eastern factions that ive heard of.

Nope.

There are chapters, but not 'several factions.' Each is a somewhat self-contained group, but does report to the main Brotherhood group.

Also- the Brotherhood in the Midwest was in a spin-off game generally REALLY not considered canon. Not as much as POS is considered non-canon, but still.

And, the east coast Brotherhood is an addition to ONLY the Fallout 3 game world.

For some reason- stay with me now- the Brotherhood of Steel, a technocratic, borderline xenophobic group whose only advantage lies in their advanced technology, has, in Fallou 3, somehow, for some unknown reason, wandered AAAAALLLL the way across the continent. Past nuclear twisters, possibly even bigger deserts (or windier and colder parts of the country- IE, Montana, etc.), somehow managing to keep their equipment in fair working order, all on a RUMOR that there MAY be advanced technology in the capital.

Which was probably more nuked than the Glow, BTW.... It would make sense to disintegrate the possible command center of your enemy, and according to the Fallout Bible, and some holotapes in FO1, the WHOLE WAR was over in a matter of minutes.

So- they want to go across the country, with no guarantee they'll find technology they need to keep their equipment in good working order, leaving behind perfectly good bases of operations in the meanwhile, all for what's probably a smoking crater on the East Coast.

Do you understand why we might have a problem with this logic?

Seeing as both the Midwestern and the Eastern expeditions were pretty small in scale, one would have to assume that they recruit from the human stock where they happen to be.

Heh. That's why the Tactics Brotherhood isn't considered canon. Sure, groups can change over time. It's certainly POSSIBLE that the Brotherhood became more open as the years went on, but the Brotherhood still had incredibly exacting recruitment techniques. Wandering up and down California is one thing- and even that took decades- going across the continent is another entirely.

And, they still were very insular by the time of Fallout 2. Tactics messed it up by making them into protectors. They're not protectors unless their interests are threatened.

Hence, in the Enclave example you gave- they weren't worried about them slagging villages and Vaults. Only when they started making noise about expanding their interests, coming into conflict with the Brotherhood's trading interests, did they care.

They would also need resources like food and such, and that would probably have to come from native sources. Remember, they dont necessarily have any vault tek around to help them purify water for a big army.

Which is another reason why it doesn't make sense that they'd leave and go across the continent for a potential cache of technology, sight unseen, while they have perfectly good tech at home.

Also, its been established that the brotherhood strongly opposes mutants. And while mutants dont really die from age, they get senile and die of the wastelands when they loose their wits. They are also sterile.

Well.... only when the Master was around, really. Like with almost every other group in FO1/2, the Brotherhood didn't care about them unless they started to make moves towards the Brotherhoods' positions.

And sterility and senility/exposure has nothing to do with...well, anything, really. Don't get why you mentioned it.

So, if supermutants are around, that means someone is making them. And that alone is reason to go and protect regular humans. For each human that is taken, a new supermutant foe is made, after all.

Your first sentence is correct.

The rest of this quote.... no.

It's a good reason for the Brotherhood to look after themselves and ignore everyone else. Add in their attitude of superiority about technology, and that makes it even less probable that they'd give a crap about invading mutants.

I mean, really- how many Brotherhood knights did you get to go with you into the base near the end of Fallout 1? .....Right, none.

They were looking after their own interests. And if they could get rid of one more pesky wannabe, hey, bonus.

And don't tell me "Oh, that was the West Coast Brotherhood, the rules have changed, etc." because that's just a cheap way to ret-con the Brotherhood in and totally switch around what they are, making them into some sort of freaking Lawful Good Paladins with power armor.

So it actually makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't.

 

[Ravager69]

Wait, didn't Marcus deny that Super Mutants are sterile, that they just need time to "get the juices flowing"? Perhaps they simply started to procreate? Unlikely, yes, very unlikely, but goddamnit, there has to be some reasonable explanation.

As for BoS - I'm hoping for some bigger plan at work, like - "yes yes, we save the good folk of Washingtown DC, but we will just need to take that high-tec computer from under the White House, which will activate pre-war security systems in the whole city, obliterating 99% of people left in there (the 1% left are the remnats of Enclave), Come help us in our effort!"

 

[Sander]

Also, its been established that the brotherhood strongly opposes mutants.

No, it hasn't. In fact, the Brotherhood of Steel didn't do anything about the mutants in Fallout at all, unless the Vault Dweller convinced them to send a few measly Paladins with him.

The Brotherhood doesn't give two shits about Super Mutants as long as they don't directly threaten them.

Wait, didn't Marcus deny that Super Mutants are sterile, that they just need time to "get the juices flowing"? Perhaps they simply started to procreate? Unlikely, yes, very unlikely, but goddamnit, there has to be some reasonable explanation.

That was a joke. It's been explained over and over and over again that it was just a joke. Yeesh.

 

[PlanHex]

Another thing entirely is that when you ask The Master to check for sterility, I think he says that the males aren't sterile, but all the females are. I've always wondered about that when it comes to that "hope she doesn't get pregnant hehe" line.

 

[Sander]

Another thing entirely is that when you ask The Master to check for sterility, I think he says that the males aren't sterile, but all the females are. I've always wondered about that when it comes to that "hope she doesn't get pregnant hehe" line.

It was a joke. Chris Avellone, the man who wrote that bit of dialogue, explained it. Joke. Full Stop. Super Mutants are sterile.

 

[PlanHex]

I got that part, it's been hammered into my brains by reading all previous discussions about it.
Just saying that the male mutants might not be sterile, even though they can't reproduce with either mutant females (sterile) or human females (incompatible).
So if some kind of 'cure' was found for the female mutants sterility problems they'd be able to reproduce.

Just me speculating though, and I really doubt it's something we'll see in Fallout 3 anyway, so I'll just shut up now.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

Nope both Mutant types are sterile.

Don't remember the scientific name but FEV fixes all damaged cells including the half cells that are necessary for reproduction.

FEV targets sperm and egg cells as it 'thinks' those are damaged.

 

[URAGR8M8]

I mean, really- how many Brotherhood knights did you get to go with you into the base near the end of Fallout 1? .....Right, none.

Well 3 Paladins do help you attack the outside of the base. I think the main reason they don't go inside was a decision made largely because they would be a huge help inside making it much more easy inside (which defeats the purpose of the player doing the work) and because they weren't too keen on having Brotherhood Paladins potentially die inside (especially an issue due to the damaging forcefields).


I know a lot of people have used the General Maxon quote that the Brotherhood's main goal is to survive to 'prove' that the Brotherhood could never develop any other way. Aside from the fact that a quote from one character long before Fallout 3 takes place is a bad example, I have some interesting quotes here myself:

From Fallout. Talk to Vree (the head scribe in the Brotherhood of Steel) and use 'Tell Me About'.

Brotherhood: "The only salvation this tortured planet and its people have. Without us, humanity is sure to perish."

War: "I assume you are refering to the last nuclear war. The Brotherhood is doing everything it can to restore that which was lost."

It's pretty clear that even in the first Fallout there was an element who thought of more than just surviving - Vree was a very important person within the Brotherhood. Looks to me Interplay always had a different future in mind for the Brotherhood. Tactics may not usually be considered canon, but the way the Brotherhood was portrayed suggests to me that there was always a strong idea of a large and far-reaching Brotherhood who got themselves heavily involved throughout the world.

 

[Sander]

Well 3 Paladins do help you attack the outside of the base.

Only if you go through a ton of trouble to persuade the Brotherhood to give them to you. The Brotherhood doesn't do this willingly, and it's very clear throughout the game that they don't care as long as the mutants don't mess with them.

Similarly in Fallout 2. The Brotherhood doesn't really care about the Enclave, they just want the Vertibird plans.

Brotherhood: "The only salvation this tortured planet and its people have. Without us, humanity is sure to perish."

War: "I assume you are refering to the last nuclear war. The Brotherhood is doing everything it can to restore that which was lost."

It's pretty clear that even in the first Fallout there was an element who thought of more than just surviving - Vree was a very important person within the Brotherhood. Looks to me Interplay always had a different future in mind for the Brotherhood. Tactics may not usually be considered canon, but the way the Brotherhood was portrayed suggests to me that there was always a strong idea of a large and far-reaching Brotherhood who got themselves heavily involved throughout the world.

They see themselves as the harbingers of technology, not as the pro-active saviours of mankind. The fact that harbinging this technology (for themselves, by the way, they're part of humanity) might help prevent the extinction of mankind doesn't mean they go out and save people. Because clearly, throughout the games, they don't.

 

[PlanHex]

Nope both Mutant types are sterile.

Don't remember the scientific name but FEV fixes all damaged cells including the half cells that are necessary for reproduction.

FEV targets sperm and egg cells as it 'thinks' those are damaged.

Ok, let's forget everything I've previously written and I'll try again.
Sorry, I'm not very good at getting my point across. I usually forgo the point altogether, surmising that people will somehow read my mind or something, I dunno
This was what I was talking about:

Master: "Join. Die. Join. Die."
Vault Dweller: "nuh uh"
Master: "Uh huh"
*repeat until you reach this:*
VD: "I happen to know that you're mutants are sterile."
Master: "Preposterous! The FEV-2 virus doesn't destroy the reproductive organs of those it mutates."
VD: "Have you talked to any of your mutants about this?"
Master: "I believe I shall. Don't move"
[done]
Master: "My scientists assure me that nothing is wrong. What do you say to that?"
VD: "Did you think to ask a female mutant?"
Master: "Reasonable. One moment. [silence] Are you sure? What about the other females? [silence] It cannot be. Be."
VD: "Sorry, Your race is doomed."
Master: "But it cannot be! This would mean all my work has been for nothing. Everething that I've tried to... a failure. It can't be. Be. BE. Be."

Transcribed directly from the game. (wish I knew how to copy it from the files, that took a hell of a lot of time )
Clearly implies that only the females are sterile.

edit:
Also:

Similarly in Fallout 2. The Brotherhood doesn't really care about the Enclave, they just want the Vertibird plans.

They set up bases in key Enclave trading spots just for vertibirds?
Nah. Seem to remember one of them telling you that the Enclave were a threat that they needed vertibirds to match them for or something. Might just be cerebral flatulence tho'.