Someone explain to me these things...

[The Kotex Kid]

This is more than less a rant.

As end game approaches, I've become what I think VERY powerful. I'm level 20, have over 120% in both small and energy weapons, have over 100% in Doctor, Science and Repair, Lockpicking and Steal, I have 11 action points, and can fire the rare pulse laser rifle THREE times in one turn. Oh, I also look dead sexy in my Adv. Power Armor.

However, you would think with the years of experience I have accumulated in my travels across the wasteland, and the Godly technology I've been fortunate enough to master that I would be an unstoppable machine, but this is not the case.

Explain this: how in the FUCK is a damned creature (Deathclaw, Wanamingo, Floaters etc..) able to PENETRATE advanced ceramic plating found on GOD DAMNED SPACE SHUTTLES!? Teeth should be shattered and claws should be broken, myself in my fucking body tank should NOT be knocked over and criticaled for each of the 10 fucking attacks these stupid animals get each turn.

Now explain this: the most sophisticated weaponry mankind has YET to see is at my disposal, and the damage is listed as 58-73. Thats the most damaging weapon I've seen yet, so why the FUCK do I only ever do upwards of 40 points of damage each turn? Am I supposed to believe a retarded cultist in fucking robes has God Damned LASER RESISTENCE IN HIS CHEST AND BACK HAIR?!? For fucks sake, I can shoot the fucking SUN out of my rifle and I don't even do the MINIMUM amount of damage listed on the damned thing. Christ...

To top it off, little shitheels with their rinky-dink laser pistols can crack shots off and MELT me and my power armor WITH my phoenix and dermal impact implants. I paid good fucking money for those and the protection offered is LAME.

Unless someone can come up with a better reason I can only chalk it up to piss poor game design.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

1 the game is set after a nuclear war right, so anything and everything is really knackered. Including the material the enclave constructed the APA from. The suit probably isn't 100% made from advanced ceramic plates, there are weak spots in any armour.

2 the damage range listed is probably the specs under ideal laboratory test conditions, so expect the weapons not to function as well in the field.

3 the damage you do is against hitpoints and not health points, there's an article around somewhere on the net about hitpoints go read it.

 

[Rev. Layle]

plus, it's science FICTION

 

[alec]

FUCK... PENETRATE... my fucking body... fucking... these stupid animals... FUCK... HIS CHEST AND BACK HAIR?!? For fucks sake... fucking... little shitheels with their rinky-dink... implants... good fucking... piss...

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

See, Alec, what did I tell you, it's only been a couple of days and already you reverted back to your grumpy old asshole self.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

It wouldnt be a fun game if you could just walk through then entire thing slaying your foes without taking a lick of damage. If you want to do that go pick up Duke Nukem form the bargain bin and switch on god mode. Besides, in Fallout 2 your not a badass by overpowering yout enemies. I consider a TRUE fallout 2 badass as someone who can clear the game without firing a shot.

 

[alec]

See, Alec, what did I tell you, it's only been a couple of days and already you reverted back to your grumpy old asshole self.

Surprise: I never changed! It was just a facade. I was faking it...

Oh my...

 

[Colt]

Man, that's the most amusing post I've seen in the while. No offense or anything, this stuff has bugged me as well. Suspension of disbelief is the only thing keeping you going for some games and most movies. - Colt

 

[The Kotex Kid]

1 the game is set after a nuclear war right, so anything and everything is really knackered. Including the material the enclave constructed the APA from. The suit probably isn't 100% made from advanced ceramic plates, there are weak spots in any armour.

2 the damage range listed is probably the specs under ideal laboratory test conditions, so expect the weapons not to function as well in the field.

3 the damage you do is against hitpoints and not health points, there's an article around somewhere on the net about hitpoints go read it.

1.) Only, the Enclave is the US Federal Government. Meaning that the suit IS made of advanced ceramic plates and polymers, which would be impossible to penetrate by the claws or teeth of animals and monsters.

2.) I'm not trying to base explinations off of loose-grounded fan fiction. It's a damned laser rifle going against a leather jacket.

3.) No where in any of the Fallout manuals, Bibles, Nearly ultimate walkthrus is there any mention of 'health points'. I would have to conclude the article you read is filled with misinformation. All armor does is checks to see how much damage is reduced by it, rather than increase the difficulty you have of being hit.

FUCK... PENETRATE... my fucking body... fucking... these stupid animals... FUCK... HIS CHEST AND BACK HAIR?!? For fucks sake... fucking... little shitheels with their rinky-dink... implants... good fucking... piss...

Heh, thanks for this mildly amusing rubbish, you unoriginal and otherwise useless troll

el_Prez]It wouldnt be a fun game if you could just walk through then entire thing slaying your foes without taking a lick of damage. If you want to do that go pick up Duke Nukem form the bargain bin and switch on god mode. Besides, in Fallout 2 your not a badass by overpowering yout enemies. I consider a TRUE fallout 2 badass as someone who can clear the game without firing a shot.

I'm not saying you should be rendered invincible, but there are certain things that should NOT be able to hurt you at this point. Wolves, Wanamingos or any other biological weapon, hollow-point bullets should be nearly impossible to damage anyone with power armor on.

The only reason I can surmise from wolves still being able to knock me down is the fact that in Fallout, and only Fallout, you are awarded the same amount of XP points for the same monsters you kill. If I kill 10 mutated rats at level 1, I'm awarded 500 XP, then when I come back at level 20 and kill those same 10 mutated rats I am STILL awarded 500 XP points. Any other game I'd be given no XP for killing a creature that is so much weaker than me.

As far as a 'truly badass' character beating the game without firing a single shot, that isn't even remotely feasable by any stretch of the imagination.

Man, that's the most amusing post I've seen in the while. No offense or anything, this stuff has bugged me as well. Suspension of disbelief is the only thing keeping you going for some games and most movies. - Colt

In all fairness I wasn't trying to be a smartass. I'm seriously pissed off that things like this are even allowed to happen. I can only hope that the bullshit stops once I get a gauss rifle and APA Mk. II, but by then it won't matter.

 

[The Vault Dweller]

ITS BANZORING TIME!

Hooray!,
The Vault Dweller

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

1.) Only, the Enclave is the US Federal Government. Meaning that the suit IS made of advanced ceramic plates and polymers, which would be impossible to penetrate by the claws or teeth of animals and monsters.

2.) I'm not trying to base explinations off of loose-grounded fan fiction. It's a damned laser rifle going against a leather jacket.

3.) No where in any of the Fallout manuals, Bibles, Nearly ultimate walkthrus is there any mention of 'health points'. I would have to conclude the article you read is filled with misinformation. All armor does is checks to see how much damage is reduced by it, rather than increase the difficulty you have of being hit.

1. Have you never heard the expression built by the lowest bidder? Probably PA was never as tough as it should of been given that government contractors need to make a profit. The APA was designed and built after the war with the limited means available to the Enclave, it wouldn't be as invincible as a suit that had been designed and built using all the prewar resources. Probably the only reason it gives better protection than the prewar PA is that it hasn't been lying around since the war without proper servicing etc. Nor has it gone through all the wear and tear that older armour might of seen.

It would have a number of soft spots, the joints, the neck, underarm, elbow, waist etc. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to move. Plate armours were vulnerable in those spots, especially to long thin daggers or bodkins. Claws and teeth would probably penetrate there as well.

2 & 3, No the article is about how hitpoints aren't health points, which is what I'm saying. As OTB keeps harping on, IIRC it was the introduction by Gary Gygax in the AD&D manuals I'm thinking of and my manuals are in storage and I haven't role played in person in years.

Hit points are an abstract, of a small portion are related the actual physical health of a character

Hit points are largely intangible, a combination of luck, divine favor, and defensive tricks, with a few hit points being actual physical damage.

If we were talking health points your observation would be valid, but with hit points when you hit someone without killing them you've scored a glancing blow, maybe singed their hair or creased that leather jacket with your laser blast. As you wear down their hit points you are wearing them down, not really doing just physical damage. Otherwise how would you explain the same person having 30 hit points at level 1 and 300 at level 20. Sure years of adventuring would leave your body perhaps stronger and fitter but not by that amount of difference. Not when you have a normal human having the same amount or sometimes more hitpoints than a creature like a deathclaw.

 

[[PCE]el_Prez]

I don't know why i didn't point this out after your first post.

IF YOUR GETTING YOUR ASS KICKED BY WILD WOLVES AND YOU HAVE ANDVANCED POWER ARMOR..... YOU SUCK AT VIDEO GAMES. TRY ANOTER HOBBY!!!!!

thats about as much advice as i can give you without screaming obscenities.

 

[Kahgan]

el_Prez]IF YOUR GETTING YOUR ASS KICKED BY WILD WOLVES AND YOU HAVE ANDVANCED POWER ARMOR..... YOU SUCK AT VIDEO GAMES. TRY ANOTER HOBBY!!!!!

Also, think about it, it's a huge facking deathclaw man, didn't you play fallout1? It stands 20 feet tall, got teeth big as yer arm, and it can tare through a fellow with one strike. 'sides, it's affected by radiation, toxic waste, the hardened wilderness condidtion, FEV, radiated and mutated FEV, radiated and mutated and toxic-wasted FEV, all in the same blubberin soup, through generations and generations, they've been hardnened and become the biggest, meanest, most dangerous(and so on) monster that walks the earth...so stop whining.
plus, 120% on energy weapons isn't even half the amount you can get, AND the best way to kill a claw is, as you should know burst-weapons (the bozar)...

 

[Rev. Layle]

3.) No where in any of the Fallout manuals, Bibles, Nearly ultimate walkthrus is there any mention of 'health points'. I would have to conclude the article you read is filled with misinformation. All armor does is checks to see how much damage is reduced by it, rather than increase the difficulty you have of being hit.

Well all armor has an AC which adds to your total AC when is directly used as a negative modifier to anyone's hit skill. your total AC is 40? your opponent has -40 to hit. As for the rest, yeah, it just reduces the amount of damage. armor has a damage threshold (which directly reduces the amount of damage) and a damage resistance (which reduces the damage AFTER the threshold) by a %... sometimes, certain characters have a instrinsic DT/DR.

also, critical hits always do something special....

 

[Argonnot]

DeathClaws, Aliens-Wanamingos, Floaters, Vorpal Rat, Bridge Keeper, Centaurs, and enclave patrols/bounty hunters are all you need to fear when in Advanced PA. If you read the description, its ceramic and metal plate that form APA, APAMrkII is the one made solely out of ceramics, for the use of enlave gaurds/soldiers on the oilrig. Deathclaws do massice game, have knock-Back, and if your knocked over, and theres alot of them, your fucked, do massice melea damage (About 36-41 for normal ones, about 21-30 for small ones, about 41-50 with pierceing damage for the queen, all the rest do about 15-25), adults are weak against plasma, small ones againt lazer. The only reason they keep kickiny your ass is 1) you plain suck, IMO 120% energy weapons sucks, 150%-200% is what you should boost it too. 2) Deathclaw rule, I mean, if you ever get an encounter where deathclaws are attacking caravans, your rooting for the deathclaws. And APA does not make you invincabel, you can still get your ass handed to you by any of the critters I mentioned in the begging, so stop whining and learn to play the damn game.

 

[The Kotex Kid]

1.) Only, the Enclave is the US Federal Government. Meaning that the suit IS made of advanced ceramic plates and polymers, which would be impossible to penetrate by the claws or teeth of animals and monsters.

2.) I'm not trying to base explinations off of loose-grounded fan fiction. It's a damned laser rifle going against a leather jacket.

3.) No where in any of the Fallout manuals, Bibles, Nearly ultimate walkthrus is there any mention of 'health points'. I would have to conclude the article you read is filled with misinformation. All armor does is checks to see how much damage is reduced by it, rather than increase the difficulty you have of being hit.

1. Have you never heard the expression built by the lowest bidder? Probably PA was never as tough as it should of been given that government contractors need to make a profit. The APA was designed and built after the war with the limited means available to the Enclave, it wouldn't be as invincible as a suit that had been designed and built using all the prewar resources. Probably the only reason it gives better protection than the prewar PA is that it hasn't been lying around since the war without proper servicing etc. Nor has it gone through all the wear and tear that older armour might of seen.

It would have a number of soft spots, the joints, the neck, underarm, elbow, waist etc. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to move. Plate armours were vulnerable in those spots, especially to long thin daggers or bodkins. Claws and teeth would probably penetrate there as well.

2 & 3, No the article is about how hitpoints aren't health points, which is what I'm saying. As OTB keeps harping on, IIRC it was the introduction by Gary Gygax in the AD&D manuals I'm thinking of and my manuals are in storage and I haven't role played in person in years.

Hit points are an abstract, of a small portion are related the actual physical health of a character

Hit points are largely intangible, a combination of luck, divine favor, and defensive tricks, with a few hit points being actual physical damage.

If we were talking health points your observation would be valid, but with hit points when you hit someone without killing them you've scored a glancing blow, maybe singed their hair or creased that leather jacket with your laser blast. As you wear down their hit points you are wearing them down, not really doing just physical damage. Otherwise how would you explain the same person having 30 hit points at level 1 and 300 at level 20. Sure years of adventuring would leave your body perhaps stronger and fitter but not by that amount of difference. Not when you have a normal human having the same amount or sometimes more hitpoints than a creature like a deathclaw.

1.) It's stated in the Fallout Bible a number of times that the Enclave was responsible for R&D of the APA and the Enclave alone. They didn't put contracts out for bidding on. I am also going to point out that there is not an abundance of daggers or 'bodkins' in the wastes, so only those individuals who sleep with their spear and give it a girls name are going to be able to seek out those vulnerabilities and cause a few scratches.

2.) Are you trying to tell me that Fallout uses core D&D 2nd edition rules? Otherwise, why would a generic catch-all statement about what 'hit points' technically are be applicable? Hit points are how much damage you can take before you are incapacitated, then killed. It's been like that since the dawn of RPG's, so I'm failling to see what you're talking about with this hit/health point thing. Ask any pen n' paper gamer what hit points are and he'll tell you it's how much life you have. Some systems consider you knocked out once you reach 0 and not actually dead until you hit -10, while others you're dead at 0.

Now, there are some older games out there, like Marvel or Secret Service that utilize something similar to what you're talking about. You have your physical damage and mortal damage. If you score a critical or roll really well, you deal mortal damage which will kill the person. Physical damage just affects their ability to function, dictates their conciousness, and acts as a sponge to soak up what mortal damage it can before its depleted. However, Fallout has nothing like this at all and even in it's scripting the only numeric values that are checked are armor class, and hit points. So for the sake of whatever you're talking about, hit points are health points in Fallout, once you hit zero you're dead.

The only reason they keep kickiny your ass is 1) you plain suck, IMO 120% energy weapons sucks, 150%-200% is what you should boost it too. 2) Deathclaw rule, I mean, if you ever get an encounter where deathclaws are attacking caravans, your rooting for the deathclaws. And APA does not make you invincabel, you can still get your ass handed to you by any of the critters I mentioned in the begging, so stop whining and learn to play the damn game.

Ignorant statements like this make my blood boil, and not being able to punch you in the head for making it isn't making it any better. You talk like this is a game of 'skill' or something along the lines of Mortal Kombat. I assign my skill points that will best suit my character as being a rifleman. Wasting skill points on weapon skills over 110% is retarded since you won't do any more damage if you raise it to 300%, you only do as much damage as the weapon can do. So, how do I suck when I don't control the combat of the game besides pointing and clicking? Explain that and this time try to spell at least 40% of your words correctly, and if you think 200% skill in anything is good, then it sounds like YOU are the one that should dive into a tutorial

 

[Rev. Layle]

How else can you describe the phenomenon of Hit Points in Fallout (or any other game where Hit Points increase a large amount over the experience of a character)?

It has to to do with luck, experience, maybe a spiritual aspect (i.e. "yeah, i'm just not killed THAT easily MFer!"), your body just dosen't "learn" to take 10 times the direct damage over a few years

Anyways, it's really moot... it's all gameplay/mechanics issue in a world that is only meant to be pseudo-real. Where things work that shouldn't work because they are plot-devices or part of the setting BIS originally made (logical or not).

 

[Sander]

Please quit it with the asshole attitude, Kotex.

2.) Are you trying to tell me that Fallout uses core D&D 2nd edition rules? Otherwise, why would a generic catch-all statement about what 'hit points' technically are be applicable? Hit points are how much damage you can take before you are incapacitated, then killed. It's been like that since the dawn of RPG's, so I'm failling to see what you're talking about with this hit/health point thing. Ask any pen n' paper gamer what hit points are and he'll tell you it's how much life you have. Some systems consider you knocked out once you reach 0 and not actually dead until you hit -10, while others you're dead at 0.

Now, there are some older games out there, like Marvel or Secret Service that utilize something similar to what you're talking about. You have your physical damage and mortal damage. If you score a critical or roll really well, you deal mortal damage which will kill the person. Physical damage just affects their ability to function, dictates their conciousness, and acts as a sponge to soak up what mortal damage it can before its depleted. However, Fallout has nothing like this at all and even in it's scripting the only numeric values that are checked are armor class, and hit points. So for the sake of whatever you're talking about, hit points are health points in Fallout, once you hit zero you're dead.

This isn't about the gameplay technical part of hit points, it's an explanation of what they represent in the real world. They don't just represent your health, because no-one can, over the span of any time, take 10 times as many hits from a bullet just by experience.

What people are trying to exlain to you is that hit points represent an abstract concep. If you get hit by a bullet and you only suffer a few hit points of damage, the explanation would be that it scraped you, not really doing you any harm, but it is wearing you down, and if you get enough 'scrapes' eventually you'll be exhausted enough to be dead, for all purposes and intents.

1.) It's stated in the Fallout Bible a number of times that the Enclave was responsible for R&D of the APA and the Enclave alone. They didn't put contracts out for bidding on. I am also going to point out that there is not an abundance of daggers or 'bodkins' in the wastes, so only those individuals who sleep with their spear and give it a girls name are going to be able to seek out those vulnerabilities and cause a few scratches.

It seems to me that hitting the soft spots instead of the hard spots is a rather elemental thing. And a spear is very easily made, you take a stick and a piece of metal (there's enough of that), and a dagger can be made in a similar way, or found. There are enough weapons around, as can be seen by the fact that a lot of people in the wasteland actually carry one.

Ignorant statements like this make my blood boil, and not being able to punch you in the head for making it isn't making it any better. You talk like this is a game of 'skill' or something along the lines of Mortal Kombat. I assign my skill points that will best suit my character as being a rifleman. Wasting skill points on weapon skills over 110% is retarded since you won't do any more damage if you raise it to 300%, you only do as much damage as the weapon can do. So, how do I suck when I don't control the combat of the game besides pointing and clicking? Explain that and this time try to spell at least 40% of your words correctly, and if you think 200% skill in anything is good, then it sounds like YOU are the one that should dive into a tutorial

Stop the attitude right now, Kotex.
And besides that, you're wrong. More than 110% skill can actually make a lot of difference, it all depends on what you're focusing on. No, it doesn't allow you to do more damage, but, unless I'm mistaken, it does still increase your chance to hit and this can be useful.

 

[Morpoggel]

As far as a 'truly badass' character beating the game without firing a single shot, that isn't even remotely feasable by any stretch of the imagination.

If I remember correctly, in the "Fallout in 11 minutes" video, there wasn't a single bullet fired. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just too tired too look it up, download it, watch it and wait with posting this.

 

[Tagaziel]

Last time I read about R&D it stood for Research and Development. As far as I can tell, R&D divisions were responsible for making prototypes and creating new technology, not manufacturing the stuff.

Kotex, if the Advanced Power Armor was made out of super-duper-advanced-cosmic-able-tehuberroxors-alloys (TM), then you'd only meet a handful of these armors, worn by your enemies, at best. The reason is COST. Power Armors had to be manufactured from materials delivered by the lowest bidder, for them to be used on the frontline. If top-notch materials were used, then no PA for you, sorry.

Another reason is that maintenance of the APA is very expensive and time-consuming, and a villager like the Chosen One (no, you cannot repair an armor made from ceramic plates and composites with rubber patches and gecko pelts) certainly has very little understanding of how to REPAIR it (not about how it functions).

Deathclaws/Wannamingos/Brahmin - why they do damage when they hit you? I have tehhaxorring-extra-armor! How can they EVEN dent me?
I will answer with a question - how come a medieval knight in full plate armor dies when he is hit by something that punches him off the horse? The answer is impact. You see, a full plate armor is a lil' darn heavy, and anyone falling down in it suffers, as it adds to the kinetic energy of the impact, Now of what relevance to the deathclaw is it, you ask. Well, YOURE the night and the deathclaw is that which punches you off the horse. Imagine a Jeep smashing into a metal can you are packed into. This quite well shows the force of the deathclaws swing. Also Wannamingos. Even Brahma's.

Oh, and if the Laser Rifle didnt kill that Mad Max, it's because the beam went straight through him.

Argonnot - two notes, Power Armors arend made from metal, they are made from composite material covered with a micron layer of silver to deflect laser/plasma and radiation, powered by a backmonted Fusion Pack (TX-300 AFAIR) and moved by a HiFlo hydraulics system.
Secondly, I always have around 100 points in my gun skills, and yet manage to waltz through the game. Reason? Perceptive and lucky!

Oh, Kotex, and I concur with Sander - stop the attitude, it's a sure-fire way to earn a Barbequed Annelid Neutron.