welsh
Junkmaster
Yes, but sadly he dies in the first one. Had Sean Bean played Aragorn, I'd be more sympathetic.
Star Wars vs Lord of the Rings
- Thread starter welsh
- Start date
Ewan McGregor for teh win.
EyeMaster7
A Smooth-Skin
LOTR trilogy > SW trilogy
I think the LotR battles were great but I must agree with you about the one with the ghosts... It was a silly idea.
There is an interview with Jackson where he talks with some execs about a new movie about hobbits and he is going to tell Frodo and Sam story.
http://www.vvaughn.com/videos/from TV/mtv/mtv.htm
welsh said:
I think the LotR battles were great but I must agree with you about the one with the ghosts... It was a silly idea.
There is an interview with Jackson where he talks with some execs about a new movie about hobbits and he is going to tell Frodo and Sam story.
http://www.vvaughn.com/videos/from TV/mtv/mtv.htm
Welsh: To begin with I disagree with you about most things (not all) you said about what the films are about and what's good and bad with them. I'd be hard put taking someone seriously who says Bakshi's movie is good, but to say it's better than Jackson's attempt, that's... well, out there. A clarification though: I don't think the new LotR movies are anything near masterpieces. I found parts 1 and 3 fine and moving, and part 2 somewhat muddled and disappointing. I doubt a definitive movie version will be made and in any case this batch has ensured it'll be many years before someone tries again. Apart from a smattering of dumb jokes and phony additions they're as decent and solid as you can expect, though, which is not something you can say about SW1-3. And taking on LotR and making it work is a much bigger and more difficult undertaking than fleshing out your own space opera.
And just a nitpick: Tolkien stated repeatedly and emphatically that the book is not allegorical.
Please. It tries to forward the notion, and fails miserably because it does not and never has made sense. It's solely a world design issue which does not resonate with ourselves because our world is not like that; there is no metaphysical dark side; there is no slippery mind control slope that begins with caring for other people and ends with multiple homicide.
I'd say it's kinda like Matrix Reloaded. While you're watching it's cool because things are happening and FX are awesome. Afterwards when you start thinking about it, it all falls apart. I mean, I really get to wondering about this sort of thing. If I'd written the prequel trilogy - and had the opportunity to direct it, to boot -, I'd be deeply ashamed. I'd feel like a total failure because I had released a product with not just a few plotholes but which COULD NOT EXIST if the plotholes were removed. I actually think RotS is being overrated even by non-gushers; people get caught up in this "it's dark and different from the two previous attempts" and forgive a little too much because they want the prequel trilogy to go out on a good note.
That's just stupid and pointless. Are they Jedi or aren't they? It's like that Jedi who gets shot down by Jango Fett in part 2; he doesn't even try to defend himself, he just grits his teeth and dies because Lucas needs to make another character look cool.
I did like that part. That's not to say it's not badly set up, though. Isn't Anakin supposed to fall despite of/because of his best intentions? Which acceptable best intentions include killing a few kids?
I'm sure otherwise Palpatine hadn't had the will to go through with it. He's a big cuddlybear at heart.
Ha ha ha! Either you meant to write "nuisance" or they just released a new irony patch.
You mean where it doesn't even matter what the good guys do? If you haven't, I recommend that you read David Brin's articles on the first two prequel movies, as they deal with several of the issues we've touched here and do so very cleverly and entertainingly.
And just a nitpick: Tolkien stated repeatedly and emphatically that the book is not allegorical.
welsh said:
Please. It tries to forward the notion, and fails miserably because it does not and never has made sense. It's solely a world design issue which does not resonate with ourselves because our world is not like that; there is no metaphysical dark side; there is no slippery mind control slope that begins with caring for other people and ends with multiple homicide.
welsh said:
I'd say it's kinda like Matrix Reloaded. While you're watching it's cool because things are happening and FX are awesome. Afterwards when you start thinking about it, it all falls apart. I mean, I really get to wondering about this sort of thing. If I'd written the prequel trilogy - and had the opportunity to direct it, to boot -, I'd be deeply ashamed. I'd feel like a total failure because I had released a product with not just a few plotholes but which COULD NOT EXIST if the plotholes were removed. I actually think RotS is being overrated even by non-gushers; people get caught up in this "it's dark and different from the two previous attempts" and forgive a little too much because they want the prequel trilogy to go out on a good note.
welsh said:
That's just stupid and pointless. Are they Jedi or aren't they? It's like that Jedi who gets shot down by Jango Fett in part 2; he doesn't even try to defend himself, he just grits his teeth and dies because Lucas needs to make another character look cool.
welsh said:
I did like that part. That's not to say it's not badly set up, though. Isn't Anakin supposed to fall despite of/because of his best intentions? Which acceptable best intentions include killing a few kids?
welsh said:
I'm sure otherwise Palpatine hadn't had the will to go through with it. He's a big cuddlybear at heart.
welsh said:
Ha ha ha! Either you meant to write "nuisance" or they just released a new irony patch.
welsh said:
You mean where it doesn't even matter what the good guys do? If you haven't, I recommend that you read David Brin's articles on the first two prequel movies, as they deal with several of the issues we've touched here and do so very cleverly and entertainingly.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Don't forget Wing Commander 3, 4, and Prophecy. Though, Hammil does deserve mad props for his voice work for The Joker in the Batman Animated Series. He did so well his voice has become almost synonymous with the character.
Harrison Ford and James Earl Jones seem to have done well for themselves, though.
The Godfather, or the Godfather Trilogy? Because I don't hear much rosy talk of Godfather 3.
Did it? The cast was attempting to embody literary characters, and for their work, they made me honestly believe that they were Frodo, or Saruman, or Gollum. So is it honestly because they were poor actors, or because you didn't like their characters?
Why yes, I went to see the Lord of the Rings to be entertained. I went to see the movies because they took Tolkien's vision and brought it to life, and Tolkien's vision is compelling and entertaining to me.
It's the same reason I went to see Revenge of the Sith, I went to be entertained. Like I said before, I payed for lightsaber duels, dead Jedi, and Palpatine, and those were delivered. I didn't really put much stock into anything else, which was wise.
WHAT WHAT WHAT!?
Based on what criteria? That they bored you? I sure as Hell wasn't bored when the Easterlings came in with the Oliphants (though more Easterlings would've been nice).
Sure you weren't high? It was the 70's, you were much younger then.
WHAT!? I thought Frodo's burden and Sam's dedication were very well done. Again, based on what criteria are you judging these story aspects?
Are you kidding me? The political intrigue in the Fall of the Republic was the only story element done well. While it is admittedly more interesting than the Good vs. Evil dichotomy of LoTR, Lord of the Rings at least had more to support it's pretext than "Anakin is Emo." The ultimate failing of Star Wars' pretext, however, is that it assumes the Good vs. Evil dichotomy. That Anakin becomes evil because he's only been indoctrinated to believe that there are two sides to the coin. When you're developing a story about the collapse of a Republic, you have to consider the shades of grey. Count Dooku was never wholly evil, as he believed in the Seperatist cause, and believed the Jedi order was weakening itself by becoming subservient to the decaying Republic. He was simply a tool used by Palpatine to secure power over the Senate. He only comes across as evil because Lucas's characters won't accept the Grey. At least in LoTR, Sauron was evil incarnate, and made himself plausible.
A better story, or more interesting?
Lord of the Rings was already working with a Feudal political scene. Aragorn was important because he was able to wrest power from the Stewards because of his blood right. As the rightful King, he becomes a symbol of unity who is able to unite Gondor against Mordor. The Army of the Dead he recruits because of the obligation of the curse, maybe you would have caught that if you weren't so bored out of your skull. Say what you will about the state of politics in a medieval society, but at least it was PLAUSIBLE.
No. For somebody that enjoys complicated story elements, you sure are gushing over pretty simple and stupid concepts. Think about it, why would the Council have Anakin remain a double agent knowing his impressionability? If Palpatine is the charismatic figure they honestly feared he was, they wouldn't have used somebody so easily swayed, even if he was their only prospect for a double agent. They can't use more conventional means of espionage? No, of course not, they're the Jedi Council. They don't deal in underhanded shit like Double Agents, oh wait...
He wasn't a muppet.
Oh? The good guys only get by because Yoda, of all the Jedi Masters, is the only one to somehow detect the conspiracy when Palpatine gives Order 66, and Obi-Wan only survives because he fell into a big puddle.
Nigga please.
Frodo would have never been able to make it to Mt. Doom without Sam's companionship or Gollum's lead. They wouldn't have even been able to make it into Gondor without the abilities of the Fellowship. Every character supported each other, which was nothing like Star Wars' pillars of archetypes.
Methinks Welsh simply doesn't understand and appreciate Tolkien's genius enough. I propose we lock him in a small room with nothing but Tolkien's books and let him out once he has read the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings trilogy and Silmarillion, in that order. If he continues to insist on these silly views, we should lock him again and repeat the process.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Not liking Lord of the Rings is no crime, it's just that mistaking Star Wars for intelligence is.
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
Bradylama said:
This is too obviously wrong. I'm fairly certain Welsh said what he said for probably just to create a schism for which to create meaningful debate for fun and his own self-aggrandizement.
Either that or the force is so strongly with him he is blinded by the powerful CGI of Star Wars into thinking LotR is simple chilcdren's fantasy. I say we destroy him in the name of the Numenor.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
quietfanatic
Ancient One
I do not agree at all with the argument that 'old' = good. I thought the first Star Wars films were much better than the prequels primarily because the acting was much better. The music was also exceptional (even if most of it is ripped off). It seemed to me to be set up in the mould of a saturday afternoon adventure film but Alec Guiness lifted the level of sophistication with his performance and this was reinforced by the raw acting talents of Ford, Fisher and Cushing among others. They took it very seriously, while making it seem effortless and natural. It is true that Mark Hamill's character 'developed' from boring loser to...well, boring loser, but he was outshone by the charisma of the others. I still prefer the special effects using models and the scenarios that were set up were interesting and mostly believable, except for the silly Ewok stuff. Of course there were many flaws, but the great atmosphere created a success in my mind.
The Phantom Menace had no soul, terrible enemies, an annoying story, characters and poor acting. The new Star Wars films feel more contrived than spontaneous. This is hard to avoid, but they could have at least given a consistently competent effort. I find it amusing that Maoris will subjugate the galaxy, but Attack of the Clones still didn't impress much. Revenge of the Sith was very polished and was a competent effort, but again it didn't have the magic of the originals. It was good, but not great. I felt that much work and effort had gone into this finale, but it just didn't have the high quality feeling of talent compared to grunt work. Ewan McGregor was trying so hard to be like Guiness, but he couldn't quite pull it off.
Although I have read LotR several times, I prefer sci-fi to fantasy, but I still think Lord of the Rings was better than the Star Wars prequels. I thought the films were competent, although they were a bit slow at times and not great films. Sean Bean would have been a better Aragorn, but the cast still gave good performances, even if they weren't exceptional (although Gollum was surprisingly good). It might be better for someone who has read the book, but I still think that LotR would be very entertaining to the uninitiated.
The Star Wars prequels were in my opinion bad, competent and good respectively while the LotR films were all competent and on average win out, as the Phantom Menace gives a negative score
.
Ratty said:
Much as I enjoy the book, are you saying you actually understand the plotline of the Silmarillion? I have a devil of a time following the connection between each story, save perhaps for the story of Numenor towards the end.
Honestly, it reads like an adaption of the Norse fables I've read since I was a child. How you can manage to keep track of the various one-shot names is beyond me. Then again, considering Tolkien studied languages for a career, I guess it makes sense.
Bradylama
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
The reason Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion was because he felt Englishmen didn't have a proper mythology like the Germanics, I believe. Or at least it was part of the reason.
Lazarus Plus
The smoovest
Fireblade said:
I've read the Silmarillion quite a few times, and I'm fairly certain I understand the plotline. It's complicated and the times between certain stories are enormous ( on the order of thousands, or more, years) but one CAN make sense of it. A good read with it is The Atlas of Middle-Earth. Excellent supplement.
Are you kidding? About two days after reading the book I could re-tell its contents to my Mum by heart. I didn't even have problems distinguishing between Fingolfin and Finarfin or Thingol and Turgon.Fireblade said:
I'm such a nerd.
Yes! For Thorin, the true King under the Mountain! Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!Vaulty said:
The Silmarillion isn't a novel in a strict sense, not least seeing how it was edited together from various versions after Tolkien had already snuffed it. There's not supposed to be a single plot with clearly defined main characters, although the sundering of the elves and those gemstones sort of make up a red thread.
The ghost army thing was done stupidly in the movie. In the book, they just helped in one battle, allowing Aragorn to later turn the tide of battle at Pelennor using conventional means. In the movie they were like a reusable tactical nuke with cheat mode on. Why Aragorn didn't have them do their killer nanite sweep through Mordor I don't know.
The ghost army thing was done stupidly in the movie. In the book, they just helped in one battle, allowing Aragorn to later turn the tide of battle at Pelennor using conventional means. In the movie they were like a reusable tactical nuke with cheat mode on. Why Aragorn didn't have them do their killer nanite sweep through Mordor I don't know.
Per said:
So much sense of humor is truly wasted on a single person.
Ratty said:
The_Vault_Dweller, banned for double registering.
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
Yes Per that is beyond true. In the book I felt they were basically zombies. Normal soldiers that may suffer weakness from long periods of decay yet benefitting from not being tired or hungry. I figured they were just an addittional conventional army and not some invincible, unfair force like in the movie.
As for the joke... :rockon:
8) ,
The Vault Dweller
As for the joke... :rockon:
8) ,
The Vault Dweller
The Vault Dweller
always looking for water.
Thanks again Per.
Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
This is from a Chinese DVD bootleg with re-translated English captions. "Revenge of the Sith" becomes "Backstroke of the West". When Anakin says he's joined the Jedi Council, the caption reads "I was just made by the Presbyterian church." Unfortunately the site that had the screenshots went down because of a flood of visitors. I managed to find a few:
The onscreen text is captioned as well.
The onscreen text is captioned as well.