Suggestions for FO3

[Roshambo]

I really loathe to outright say you're wrong, Rosh, but Fallout technology is almost all Vacuum tubes, which are highly resistant to EMP. EMP would not effect a PiPBoy, or one of the big Tube-based mainframes.

Here's where I say that while vacuum tubes are millions of times more resistant to EMP, a hell of a lot moreso than semiconductor circuitry, there is still a lot of other circuitry that is not a vacuum tube to be concerned with.

Transformers can do really funky current changes to the other components under the effects of EMP, though most of the time they will just burn out. With lower amperage devices comes lower tolerance of the circuitry as the tube used doesn't have the size and load balancing to absorb the excess current spikes. Microelectronics, in whatever form, are highly susceptible to EMP, and not just because of the core of the circuitry. DC circuit components would pop like popcorn as resistors try to become filaments, and AC circuits would load to the point where the current is powerful enough to try and arc through what should normally be a DC open in a capacitor. The smell of burning dielectric is very distinctive.

Scientists and engineers knew about the effects of EMP before there were semiconductor ICs. An excerpt from one of my favorite military reports on this subject:

The military first became aware of EMP in the late 1950's and early 1960's. The concept was not entirely new, as it had been predicted as early as 1945 during the Trinity tests at Alamogordo, New Mexico that a nuclear explosion would generate some type of electromagnetic field. A more detailed under-standing of the force and type of electromagnetic field generated by this type of explosion was discovered during the Fishbowl series of high-altitude atmospheric tests which were conducted in the Johnson Islands. Even during these tests, due to the sophistication of their equipment, the scientists were able to detect only limited effects. However, in Honolulu, Hawaii, 800 miles away*, the street lights and power lines broke down and burglar alarms rang throughout the city.

Research attributed these effects to EMP which came from the high altitude atomic bursts at Johnson Island.11 Further testing of nuclear weapons at various altitudes was planned in order to further evaluate the effects of EMP but had to be stopped after high altitude nuclear testing was banned with the signing of the Test Ban Treaty.

* - The nukes used in Operation Fishbowl were comparitively weak to conventional weapons, and could throw out that kind of effect. I found some movies on those, too, with the megatonnage used, here. Fat Man and Little Boy were in the 12-22 kilotons range, the highest test was 58 megatons. Many fiction writers of that time then went along that scale and made it even larger, because as the Bush administration knows, nothing sells like a bit of good ol' terror to keep the people riveted.

Anyways I'm not saying the world should be thick with them like it is now; obviously there is a certain something that goes into maintaining even a hyper-rugged contraption like a PiPBoy that your average farmer or raider won't have; or the capabilities of a PiPBoy are useless to him so he'd rather trade it off so he can eat. What I'm really saying is just that the PC should have one so it can be maintained as the interface, and that they're common enough, that for story/interface reasons, the PC can have one.

I agree, the PC and perhaps a select few others who had the time/resources to get such devices. I still disagree about PiPs being common, as you would also notice a lot more conventional electronics of that type elsewhere in the world, but don't. That is especially notable given the state of the universe before the Great War, with Mr. Handee's, Corvegas, how you have to fix the Highwayman, and much more.

As the only electronic parts that really survived the war have been originating from a Vault or otherwise shielded place, I think most of the surface was considered fried and electronically dead. The whole "silicon semiconductor was never invented" kind of means that the world's electronics would have been otherwise perfectly fine if the presence of vacuum tubes meant that no EMP affected the electronics.

Something else to think about:

The phenomenon of EMP is one resultant of an atmospheric nuclear detonation which can cause an emission of electrons with a peak of up to 50,000 volts per meter. For example, a detonation at an altitude of 200 miles above the central United States would bathe the entire United States and parts of Canada and Mexico in EMP.

I doubt even a tube stereo amp could take the current surge from ~50kv/m³.

 

[Bradylama]

And if everything is based on vacuum tubes, then what's inside the pipboy? Really small ones?

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Yeah you can see them on the main interface and behind the dialogue screen.

I'd like to know what type of gizmo they had at Far Go Traders, to read the mutant holodisk you give them. Did the Brotherhood trade them a pipboy or just a holodisk player/reader?

 

[Carib FMJ]

But in place of a PIPBoy remember, people did have Holo tape readers. But that is side stuff.

 

[Lord 342]

I stand somewhat corrected.
To say that PiPBoys were immune was a bit of a generalization; but they, along with other tube technology, certainly would stand up to EMP much better than solid state stuff.
As Rosh states, clearly showing some knowledge of the subject, it's a question of tolerances. I was making a generalization when I said what ammounted to "Vacuum tubes = EMP immunity". Whoops. I know better than this and I think I even posted something to that effect elsewhere.

I agree, though, that lots of stuff would at the very least require lengthy repairs before it was serviceable again. Anywho, most of the stuff you see is pretty well shielded; I suspect a society as atomic-centric as the Prewar Fallout world would have known of the simple protection of a Faraday cage. I recall the Corvega ad from Fallout; it touted that it was free from computers and electronics; presumably to eliminate the chance of EMP rendering it inoperative. I could easily see ads in the back of Guns 'n' Bullets or what have you touting Home Farady Cages for Your Family's Shelter. Enough stuff would have been protected that some technology would survive; either through deliberate protection by shielding, hardening of circuits (as in military equipment), or pure dumb luck of the stuff being out of the EMP zone. I'm sure that you're right, Roshambo, and that plenty of tube tech met its end from EMP, but due to construction and thread consciousness, enough survived that it can clearly enter the story line in places.

Yes, Bradylama, really small vacuum tubes. I've got a coffee mug with tubes in it the size of a large pill. They still require hundreds of volts to work, but the scale is doable.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I was about to ask a really dumb question, why would a coffee mug need vacuum tubes? but I suppose you mean you've got one filled with them for storage?

Changing subject one thing I'd like to see in FO3 is a wound system similar to JA2. Where if you get wounded you'll bleed out unless healed/bandaged which could be fatal when travelling the world map. Stimpaks and first aid might stop the bleeding but wouldn't restore your full hitpoints, you'd only heal fully over time or from doctoring.

 

[PhredBean]

A food system would be as simple as merely having food and the player character eating it automatically. Keeping it as a purely survivalistic aspect passes up a prime roleplaying opportunity, however.

Say, for instance, the Pipboy has a mealplanner. In this mealplanner, the player can set the player character's diet based on what foods are available to the party.

Fallout 3: Orego... err... NCR trail.

I doubt even a tube stereo amp could take the current surge from ~50kv/m³.

Nope. Nor could the current vacuum tubes still used in military or commercial radars. We have to allow the filament time to heat up, switch various components on in stages, and monitor the current because if it all hits the front end at once we can damage or destroy the vacuum tubes, oscillators, and many other components. Especially the old fashioned CRTs. Without semi-conductor technology, everything is still going to be CRT monitors. An EMP would permanently mess up the whole thing. If it didn't implode or just not work, everything would be distorted, like the way a magnet fucks with your monitor.

I agree, though, that lots of stuff would at the very least require lengthy repairs before it was serviceable again.

Vacuum tubes can't be repaired. Only replaced. Keep in mind, production is going to be dead for all but the BOS. No one will be able to replace a tube.

 

[Lord 342]

I doubt even a tube stereo amp could take the current surge from ~50kv/m³.

Nope. Nor could the current vacuum tubes still used in military or commercial radars. We have to allow the filament time to heat up, switch various components on in stages, and monitor the current because if it all hits the front end at once we can damage or destroy the vacuum tubes, oscillators, and many other components. Especially the old fashioned CRTs. Without semi-conductor technology, everything is still going to be CRT monitors. An EMP would permanently mess up the whole thing. If it didn't implode or just not work, everything would be distorted, like the way a magnet fucks with your monitor.

Well, yes, that is what would happen if the EMP reached the level that would interfere with the tube circuits. The threshold is higher for a tube than for solid state, that is all.

I agree, though, that lots of stuff would at the very least require lengthy repairs before it was serviceable again.

Vacuum tubes can't be repaired. Only replaced. Keep in mind, production is going to be dead for all but the BOS. No one will be able to replace a tube.

I mean the entire device will require repair, not the tube. Some tubes can be repaired, especially large radar tubes 8) (My father was a radar controller in the Air Force; they had 6-foot Klystron tubes that could be cut open, refurbished, and then resealed and have vacuum re-applied. Almost good as new. Eventually they could not be rebuilt. Then they would play with the minds of the people at Radio Shack, who at the time tested Vacuum tubes. They'd send one guy in and ask "Do you test vacuum tubes?" Of course he'd say yes, so they'd haul in the Klystron and plop it on the counter, much to the surprise of the clerk!) Anyway, my point it that a competent tech, with the right supplies, could restore a device to functionality, not that tubes themselves can be repaired. Furthermore, my real point is stated above:

...but due to construction and threat consciousness, enough [technology] survived that it can clearly enter the story line in places.

 

[PhredBean]

I mean the entire device will require repair, not the tube. Some tubes can be repaired, especially large radar tubes 8) (My father was a radar controller in the Air Force; they had 6-foot Klystron tubes that could be cut open, refurbished, and then resealed and have vacuum re-applied. Almost good as new. Eventually they could not be rebuilt.

I'm a Radar Tech for the AF, the controllers watch the dots on the CRT. I actually fix the transmitters, recievers, antenna, and indicators. I don't work with the Klystron, but our radar has a few different tubes in it. We still have no problem reordering new vacuum tubes, but I haven't ever heard of anyone being able to service them. I've yet to see one 6-ft long (I've heard the TPS-75 has ones like that, but I've never gotten into one to check it out). I can ask a few of the guys who haven't been stuck in the same squadron their whole career and find out more on that though. The radar I work on is late 60s tech and it's amazing how fast old circuitry fries or loses alignment.

Many of the ones I've seen, when they go, they either just drift over time until the frequency is too far off to be corrected for or they go out spectacularly, burning up (usually caused by a surge or a cocky old technical sargeant who's "done this a million times before" dumping all the current into it at once while it's 'cold'.)

In either case, any half-usable equiptment would have issues with the circuitry deteriorating and causing voltage drifts and like issues. It would take some knowledgable people to be able to salvage any equiptment with that level of technology, and as each generation goes by, there would be less and less people able to work with it. The only ones who reasonably would have any skill with said equiptment would probably come from a community with a well maintained vault.


Sorry if this isn't very coherent, it's 0430, I'm tired, and I'm shot full of painkillers from recent surgery. I'll clarify more later if need be.

 

[Lord 342]

The 6-foot Klystron tubes were used in the Radars that went with SAGE. SAGE was the epitome of Fallout type technology and was the fastest vacuum tube computer ever built. The cost of the enormous Klystrons was such that some tech came up with the idea of releasing the vacuum, rebuilding them, and re-applying vacuum. It worked well enough and saved lots of money. SAGE itself was EMP-tollerant largely due to its being housed in a concrete blockhouse that could withstand a nuclear explosion (Not a direct hit). But SAGE was designed with nuclear warfare in mind, even moreso than the average household tech in the Fallout world. Millitart tech, though, and anything in protective casings or Faraday cages, could definitily survive. All the Laser Rifles, Plasma guns, and similar weapons are certainly electronic in nature, but being millitary tech they survived. With other stuff that was unprotected it would have some chance of survival but it would all be circumstantial.

 

[Tagaziel]

I know I will be bagged for this. I know. But here I go:

Maybe if Fallout married Gothic, in terms of engine and its derivatives, we would get an interresting result.

 

[Ekarderif]

It'd certainly be better than a Morrowind/Fallout hybrid, but it still would lack the proper Falloutiness. Plus, gunfights would turn pretty stupid with any real-time system.

 

[Jame Hammer]

Not really related to previous discussions, but has anyone been watching the series "Lost In Space" at some point in their life?

I just thought that it'd be cool to perhaps have the possibility to reprogram a bot, perhaps much alike the one in Lost In Space as a sidekick in FO3!

 

[Lord 342]

Did you ever play Fallout 2? You could do *exactly* that, and it was one of the better NPCs, even! I see no reason to not bring it back.

 

[Jame Hammer]

Hmmm...I did play a loaner fallout 2 back in 2001 I think, and all that is left is a warm feeling...then the bloke I loaned it from wanted it back, and I didn't get to quite finish it...playing it just now again since I got the collection...perhaps that's where I got the idea - just didn't realize it!

 

[Josh]

One of the only new features i want in Fallout 3 is trade skills! Some vehicular combat would be nice aswell.

 

[Kahgan]

urgh, improved use of the trade skill is a good sugestion, but vehicular combat?

 

[Mad Max]

Yes I agree that there should be more vechicles. But For the hell of it what I would really like to see toward cars and vehicles is the Army Jeep, Hummer, Camaro, Mad Max Ford Falcon, cadillac, Sherman tank, M1A1 Abrams tank, Ford Pinto, Chevy El camino, well you get the picture that I would love probably every car in the world in Fallout 3 but I know that won't get many licenses for those cars so oh well.

 

[Silencer]

El Camino is 1969 I think, and Ford Pinto is 1971 or something like that. At any rate, far beyond the scope of the retro-fifties, I'd reckon, sorry.

 

[Briosafreak]

I can`t see the need for a lot of vehicles, but anyway how about these ones?

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=602
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=605
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=604
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=603

- Motorcycle + sidecar: Fast, fuel efficient. Could be upgraded with a machine gun on the sidecar, resulting in less random encounters. Carries three people.

- Police car: Fast. Could be upgraded with a blower, making it the fastest vehicle in the game. Carries 6 people.

- Semi: Slow, burns through energy cells quickly. An old camper could be hooked up to it, resulting in a mobile science/mechanic lab for the PC, as well as near-infinite storage capacity. Carries 6 people.

- Dune buggy: Medium speed, not slowed down by rough terrain like the other vehicles. Could be upgraded with bigger tires, allowing you to cross areas that the other vehicles can't. Held 4 people, I think.

Dune Buggy: This ramshackle welded steel frame holds a 133hp small energy cell engine. Its makeshift seats and "holding bars" allow it to carry a total of six passengers. It was manufactured sometime after the war and was apparently abandoned in the desert after a tribal attack. It has no room for baggage.

Cop car: Detroit Motor Cars Ibex Police Interceptor - "It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspension, cop shocks. It's a model made after the Anchorage Reclamation so it'll run good on small energy cells."

Motorcycle: The Boudicca-78/S was a reliable modern motorcycle used by the British Royal Armored Corps, Arabia Division. The U.S. National Guard used several such motorcycles during the time of quarantine right before the war. The bike's 78hp engine runs off of small energy cells and has a small amount of storage space on the back of the sidecar.