Terrorist attack on French satirical magazine

Well the fact that many Muslim nations are poor as fuck doesn't really help the situation either. It is much easier to win people for your extreme views if they are frustrated, for what ever reason. I think this has much less to do with the religion but more with the imbalance between the developed nations and the third world countries.
 
"Nothing to lose"-factors kick in, where there is desperate poverty. People with a lot to lose will put up with much more.
 
That's horseshit, most of the 9-11 hijackers grew up middle class and most went to uni. Can't pass off all the anti-semitism, homophobic, anti-feminist and whatever other anti-minority prejudices with the desire to suicide-bomb civilian targets in that part of the world to socio-economics alone.
 
That's horseshit, most of the 9-11 hijackers grew up middle class and most went to uni. Can't pass off all the anti-semitism, homophobic, anti-feminist and whatever other anti-minority prejudices with the desire to suicide-bomb civilian targets in that part of the world to socio-economics alone.

Horseshit? Damn. That's pretty absolutist. I guess I have to just go and un-see and un-know every dirt-poor Palestinian stone-thrower, all those strap-on-backpack suicide bombers, all those random lunatics who crashed into some embassy or something with a rusty bomb-van. I guess guerilla-forces around the world only hire millionaire troops. I un-know and un-see them all, I assure you.
I bow to your observation of it all being horseshit! Horseshit from A to Z!
 
That's horseshit, most of the 9-11 hijackers grew up middle class and most went to uni. Can't pass off all the anti-semitism, homophobic, anti-feminist and whatever other anti-minority prejudices with the desire to suicide-bomb civilian targets in that part of the world to socio-economics alone.
Violent fundamentalism attracts many different kinds of people. Fighting for a cause is attractive for many people. And that's not limited to "that part of the world" -- just look at the Spanish Civil War, or the struggle for the creation of Israel, or the people who joined various communist uprisings during the Cold War, or the many people who join their nation's military because they want to fight for the cause of nationalism.

One thing that's not helpful is to treat "that part of the world" or all Islamic violence as monolithic. Hamas is not Al Qaeda is not ISIS are not Syrian rebels are not Libyan rebels is not Boko Haram are not Iraqi sectarians. All of these and many other groups are the result of specific circumstances, and while there are circumstances common to these groups, that does not mean the common problems is what created them. Far from it.
 
That's horseshit, most of the 9-11 hijackers grew up middle class and most went to uni. Can't pass off all the anti-semitism, homophobic, anti-feminist and whatever other anti-minority prejudices with the desire to suicide-bomb civilian targets in that part of the world to socio-economics alone.

But I think it is fair to say that poverty is one big factor. As Sander correctly said, there are plenty of reasons even for wealthy people to follow extremists (See Bin Ladens history, from the rich boy to the most wanted terrorist of the world).

Though you will have a hard time to recruit whole armies of fighters in nations like France, Germany, the USA etc. simply because those nations have a strong infrastructures and governments with working police, military and administrative forces, and it is also no coinsidence that France with its very probelmatic ghettos full of uneducated, jobless and very often discriminated young people is a place of growing violence and radicalims. Though many lunatics will one way or another happen to get in conflict with the government they try to fight against. At least for France one of their famous musicians which happend to know one of the attackers said that it is no uncommon to find such attitudes in young people which have no perspective in live, many of them get in touch with radical views or the radical side of Islam in prison even.

Also nations like Afghanistan the Iraq, Somalia etc. are seen as breading grounds for very extremistic groups for a reason.


While money and wealth are no guarantee against terrorism, it sure helps to prevent it.
 
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Well, non-Islamic countries of South America and SE Asia certainly have a lot of poverty as well as a brutal history of western colonization and imperialism (I'm not sure any other areas have had it worse). Yet, I'm not aware of any violence or murders or beheadings set off in those countries due to provocative cartoons about their gods. I don't see the intolerance like the homophobia, antisemitism and anti-feminism or whatever other minorities there either.

Dance around it all you want, it's a toxic cocktail of many factors, fundamentalist Islam being one of them.
To say that killing someone over a cartoon about Mo' isn't about extreme Islamic beliefs is plain silly.
 
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Well, non-Islamic countries of South America and SE Asia certainly have a lot of poverty as well as a brutal history of western colonization and imperialism (I'm not sure any other areas have had it worse). I'm not aware of any violence set of in those countries due to provacative cartoons about their gods. I don't see the intolerance like the homophobia, antisemitism and anti-feminism or whatever other minorities there either.

Dance around it all you want, it's a toxic cocktail of many factors, fundamentalist Islam being one of them.
While you don't see South-American violence over cartoons, there is plenty of South-American violence over drugs, over poverty, over communist ideals, over territorial squabbles, over ethnic conflicts, over politics and many other issues. And fundamentally, the violence in the Middle-East is not caused by a few cartoons either, even if that directed one vector of violence -- Hamas is fighting a war against ethnic oppression, ISIS is fighting a war for their ideals in an independent nation (like South-American communists), Iraqi sectarians are involved in an ethnic conflict, and we could go on like that because these are complicated issues.

While fundamentalist, extremist Islam is part of the problem in the sense that it directs the violence and is a banner for a cause, I am less than convinced that it also causes violence. That is not to excuse the violence, but the way we seem to constantly need to frame the violence as caused by Islam (something you keep doing in this thread) is analytically lazy, and filled with Orientalist and imperialist assumptions.

Long story short: eliminating Islam would not remove the violence.
 
Long story short: eliminating Islam would not remove the violence.
Wait, we'd still have murders over cartoons of Mo with no Islam? That doesn't make any sense. They'd be murdering over Garfield then?

You're still ignoring the difference in intolerance towards Jews, homosexuals and other minorities too that are not present in the atreas I mentioned. Where does stem from Professor?
 
Wait, we'd still have murders over cartoons of Mo with no Islam? That doesn't make any sense. They'd be murdering over Garfield then?
That violence was not caused by cartoons any more than Roger Elliot's killing spree was caused by women not having sex with him. It determined at most the direction of violence. That's my point.

Cimmerian Nights said:
You're still ignoring the difference in intolerance towards Jews, homosexuals and other minorities too that are not present in the atreas I mentioned. Where does stem from Professor?
What are the areas mentioned, exactly? You only talked about "that part of the world" as a monolithic entity that we should all understand as such, while there's wide regional variance in attitudes on these issues. Egypt is not Iraq is not Pakistan is not Palestine is not ISIS, etc.

But the notion that this is somehow worse because of Islam is amusing. Perhaps you'd like to talk about the anti-gay laws in Christian countries like Uganda and Russia? Or the way the USA treats its black citizens? Or the attitudes of Europeans towards Muslims? Anti-black racism is pretty much a colonial, Enlightenment creation -- perhaps Enlightenment isn't compatible with Western values, then? Similarly, anti-Semitism has a long history of being endemic in Christianity and significantly less prominent in Islam (reversed over the past half century -- not coincidentally with the rise of Israel).

Alternatively, that kind of analysis is ridiculously reductionist. Intolerance for things we deem 'other' is widespread, and especially common when economic conditions are poor and in the presence of structural violence. Attitudes towards people vary across time and space and are not usefully subject to mono-causal analysis -- and similarly, religious attitudes change across time and space, too. A Muslim living in Amsterdam is likely to feel differently about many of this ideas from one living in Saudi Arabia, who in turn will likely feel differently from one living in Indonesia or Egypt.
 
Please don't compare the condition of some of the U.S' black population to any of those. Racism in the U.S. was an artificial creation used to separate poor blacks and whites in order to keep them from joining together to pursue effective change for themselves. Before that it was discrimination based on culture. The early English settlers described the Irish the same way they described the American Indians.
 
There's a lot of historical debate over how and why anti-black racism specifically came to be. It certainly sometimes functioned to keep poor European settlers and indentured servants from sympathizing with black slaves, and it also functioned to dehumanize black people, create an ideology of superiority and legitimize the Atlantic slave trade, among many other things. But that doesn't mean it was intentionally created to do that, rather than being the consequence of historical circumstances.

In any case, I'm not sure why that means I can't bring it up as a way in which a society treats a part of itself as other. Because that's exactly what racism did, and continues to do.
 
Well, non-Islamic countries of South America and SE Asia certainly have a lot of poverty as well as a brutal history of western colonization and imperialism (I'm not sure any other areas have had it worse). Yet, I'm not aware of any violence or murders or beheadings set off in those countries due to provocative cartoons about their gods. I don't see the intolerance like the homophobia, antisemitism and anti-feminism or whatever other minorities there either.

Dance around it all you want, it's a toxic cocktail of many factors, fundamentalist Islam being one of them.
To say that killing someone over a cartoon about Mo' isn't about extreme Islamic beliefs is plain silly.

I'm not sure how Central and South Americans killing each other over drugs, politics or friggin soccer is that different from Muslims killing people over cartoons (nevermind that as Sander says that's a pretty tunnel vision way to think about such things). A corpse is a corpse, it doesn't care why it died for. Killing is not right, unless in the most dire of circumstances. I'm going to say it for a third time because I'm boring like that, but someone killed by a lunatic screaming to Allah is no less dead than some guy from Pakistan being blown up by a Drone. Or in the example you give, Mexican schoolchildren being butchered by drug cartels who want to send a message, or some poor shmuck stabbed to death because he walked in the wrong Favela.

I mean hell, if I recall correctly the war against the Mexican cartels and assorted violences claimed the lives of at least 40 000 people just last year, or maybe it was in 2013. Nevertheless, that's more than the casualties of any Islamic movement by a fairly wide margin, except perhaps if you count the deaths in the Syrian civil war (which is not caused by religion, primarily at least). Let's not act as if conflicts in Muslim dominated areas are much worse than in other war-torn parts of the globe. Hasn't the proxy war in Europe's very own Ukraine reached a couple thousand casualies too?

To be quite blunt, I don't think what shocks people in Western countries is that Islamic fanatics kill because of Allah (or cartoons or whatever). It's that killing infidels in Allah's name means that foreign people we don't care about aren't the only potential targets; these lunatics are also gunning for us, so obviously they are the worst of the worst.

EDIT: As a corrolary, just to hammer the point home, this article shows that the West has absolutely no problem praising political leaders supporting radical islamist policies (including Sharia law, beheading criminals and whipping political dissidents) so long as they throw enough oil our way. And people still try to claim that our problem with radical Islam is on a purely moral level, yeah right. It's realpolitik like always.
 
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AS LONG AS I'M NOT REPLYING TO ANYTHING POLITICAL I'M NOT PARTICIPATING IN THE POLITICAL DISCUSSION LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOUU

JUST POSTING THIS

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Yeeeeah. Except that:

Criticism =/= Islamophobia

what they describe as Communistophobia also lead to questionable situations, like McCarthynism. Who knows how close the US and the Soviets have been to a nuclear war. There are concerns. And there is irrational fear. Young people without perspective and suffering from discrimination becoming more violent? That is a concern. Our Society getting changed by Muslims or attacks on free spech so that we have to watch all Muslims? That is irrational fear.

I can't understand why people always feel like free spech or some kind of rights are at danger here, as like we are all soon facing a situation like in Syria or Iran.

Free spech doees not mean free pass.
 
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I can't understand why people always feel like free spech or some kind of rights are at danger here, as like we are all soon facing a situation like in Syria or Iran.
I don't think free speech is the issue either. Especially with the widespread laws in Europe that punish with jail time, denying or making mock of the holocaust. You can say denying the holocaust is retarded, but punishing denial with jail time is basically spitting in the face of "I may not like what you say but I'm gonna protect your right to say it." My point with this is that free speech never even existed in the first place. It's just used so that we won't focus on the true issue.

The true issue here is crime committed by immigrants who despise Europe (by that I mean the entire Western Culture). The reasons why they hate us is not as important as the fact that they will act on their hatred. Meaning we have to address the issue, one way or another.
 
I can't understand why people always feel like free spech or some kind of rights are at danger here, as like we are all soon facing a situation like in Syria or Iran.
I don't think free speech is the issue either. Especially with the widespread laws in Europe that punish with jail time, denying or making mock of the holocaust. You can say denying the holocaust is retarded, but punishing denial with jail time is basically spitting in the face of "I may not like what you say but I'm gonna protect your right to say it." My point with this is that free speech never even existed in the first place. It's just used so that we won't focus on the true issue.

The true issue here is crime committed by immigrants who despise Europe (by that I mean the entire Western Culture). The reasons why they hate us is not as important as the fact that they will act on their hatred. Meaning we have to address the issue, one way or another.

Ironically enough, the guys who shot up Charlie Hebdo weren't immigrants, but born and bred Frenchmen.
 
Free practice of religion does not mean free pass.
See the image. Than why is this discussion always coming up with a group that has almost no meaning in nations like Germany for example. There is a double standart regarding the Islam and Christianity. At least as far as Germany goes.
 
Ironically enough, the guys who shot up Charlie Hebdo weren't immigrants, but born and bred Frenchmen.
They were born to immigrants, and from what I've heard, they did not really consider themselves Frenchmen.
 
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