TheMutantMe
First time out of the vault
I would say if it needs that much text to justify it, it's not a good change and doesn't fit the setting.
The brother hood of Steel in FO3
- Thread starter Texas Renegade
- Start date
First time out of the vault
The long story short is that human nature allows for such deviance to occur. Sometimes isolating distance causes people to turn selfish, sometimes it causes people to be more benevolent. The BOS is not a bunch of brainwashed droids unable to even comprehend thoughts that don't pertain to their primary directive. The BOS is a human organization, and like any armed special interest organization there will be splintering.
Does it fit the setting of Fallout 1 and 2? No, but it does fit the setting of the Fallout Universe. I can't argue against personal preference, but technically nothing prevents this deviation because it does not contradict Fallout canon, it just expands the depth of the BOS.
Does it fit the setting of Fallout 1 and 2? No, but it does fit the setting of the Fallout Universe. I can't argue against personal preference, but technically nothing prevents this deviation because it does not contradict Fallout canon, it just expands the depth of the BOS.
TheLastOutlaw
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I really haven't had much direct interaction with the BoS yet in FO3, apparently they're more closely linked to the main quest which I've done almost nothing with because I'm enjoying the exploring/sidequest aspect so far.
But based on what I've seen of the BoS so far I don't see any glaring contradictions to previous FO canon.
The BoS I've run into are surly, arrogant and standoffish. Much as they were in FO1. I haven't seen examples of them helping people out of the goodness of their heart, what I'm seeing seems more like they're combating the super mutants to further their own ends and Three Dog is building them up as heros of the people.
As I said, I haven't had any in depth interaction with them but so far what I've seen follows their previous image (other than the random morons in PA with no helmets on) and Three Dog talking them up because he wants to give people something to believe in. Maybe it changes into something hideously twisted later, I'll have to wait and see.
And I ran into my first Brotherhood Outcast patrol last night. They helped me blow away a group of raiders and then moved on. I had been under impression that they were evil?
But based on what I've seen of the BoS so far I don't see any glaring contradictions to previous FO canon.
The BoS I've run into are surly, arrogant and standoffish. Much as they were in FO1. I haven't seen examples of them helping people out of the goodness of their heart, what I'm seeing seems more like they're combating the super mutants to further their own ends and Three Dog is building them up as heros of the people.
As I said, I haven't had any in depth interaction with them but so far what I've seen follows their previous image (other than the random morons in PA with no helmets on) and Three Dog talking them up because he wants to give people something to believe in. Maybe it changes into something hideously twisted later, I'll have to wait and see.
And I ran into my first Brotherhood Outcast patrol last night. They helped me blow away a group of raiders and then moved on. I had been under impression that they were evil?
Nullifidian
First time out of the vault
Ok, here's my take.
First off, the whole "they won't risk leaving their safety to get tech and instead send a third party" was a stupid contrived idea just to give you another quest. Realistically, they would have done it themselves. There's no way they would trust a third party with the task because they'd suspect that person would keep the tech for themselves assuming they survived.
The only reason they didn't do it themselves in Fallout 1 is because the developers needed to send you on a cool quest. That's all. Fallout 1 was not perfect. Neither was Fallout 2.
Ok, Max was pretty old in Fallout 1. He was toast by Fallout 2 for sure. New leadership took over. This new leadership could have very easily decided that it would be worth the risk to leave their sanctuary on patrols in search of tech. The new leader could have been more willing to take risks for tech. If they had enough success with that, they might decide to take bigger risks and cast a wider net; going further and further afield. They'd eventually have to establish new bases.
Finally, they plan their biggest, riskiest move ever; send a contingent across the continent to get tech in they greatest potential source: The ruins of DC. Elder Lyons is in charge of this trek. He happens to be altruistic at heart; perhaps he read some pre-war books; maybe read a lot of philosophy, or maybe he's just a nice guy at heart. They do exist you know, even in the harshest of times in the harshest of environments.
Perhaps during their trek, they encounter raiders and other nasties and kill them. Perhaps during that process they inadvertantly save entire villages and settlements. Perhaps maybe, just maybe, Lyons and other feel warm fuzzies (as is built genetically into the vast majority of humans) when they see the results of them helping others. They want to do good and they see they have the power to do so. So Lyons decides to add a little something to the DC contigent's charter. Obviously many would disagree and a mutiny occurs. End result: BoS from Fallout 3.
First off, the whole "they won't risk leaving their safety to get tech and instead send a third party" was a stupid contrived idea just to give you another quest. Realistically, they would have done it themselves. There's no way they would trust a third party with the task because they'd suspect that person would keep the tech for themselves assuming they survived.
The only reason they didn't do it themselves in Fallout 1 is because the developers needed to send you on a cool quest. That's all. Fallout 1 was not perfect. Neither was Fallout 2.
Ok, Max was pretty old in Fallout 1. He was toast by Fallout 2 for sure. New leadership took over. This new leadership could have very easily decided that it would be worth the risk to leave their sanctuary on patrols in search of tech. The new leader could have been more willing to take risks for tech. If they had enough success with that, they might decide to take bigger risks and cast a wider net; going further and further afield. They'd eventually have to establish new bases.
Finally, they plan their biggest, riskiest move ever; send a contingent across the continent to get tech in they greatest potential source: The ruins of DC. Elder Lyons is in charge of this trek. He happens to be altruistic at heart; perhaps he read some pre-war books; maybe read a lot of philosophy, or maybe he's just a nice guy at heart. They do exist you know, even in the harshest of times in the harshest of environments.
Perhaps during their trek, they encounter raiders and other nasties and kill them. Perhaps during that process they inadvertantly save entire villages and settlements. Perhaps maybe, just maybe, Lyons and other feel warm fuzzies (as is built genetically into the vast majority of humans) when they see the results of them helping others. They want to do good and they see they have the power to do so. So Lyons decides to add a little something to the DC contigent's charter. Obviously many would disagree and a mutiny occurs. End result: BoS from Fallout 3.
Er, you must've missed the bit in Fallout 1 where they sent you on a suicide mission on purpose. They neither expected nor wanted you to come back with the tech as they thought it was impossible.Nullifidian said:
It wasn't in there as a fetch quest, it was in there as a suicide mission. Of course, when you actually succeeded they couldn't really turn you away.
No, the BoS really is a bunch of goody two-shoes in this game. Really.TheLastOutlaw said:
They drop fingers, so they're technically evil.TheLastOutlaw said:
But the fact that they're evil doesn't mean that they have to like psychopathic idiots who enjoy decorating their homes with decapitated corpses.
Nullifidian
First time out of the vault
Suicide mission or not, they wouldn't tell you the location of valuable tech. Period. There's no way they would give that info away. No way. Information is almost as valuable to them as the actual tech. If they wanted to truly get rid of you, they would have sent you on a mission to someplace that had NO tech whatsoever but was certain death. Either that or they would have sent you on a mission to get something trivial that they didn't care about that was a suicide mission. They didn't. They had you retrieve something important which was totally out of character.
To be fair they set you to an area the thought might have advanced tech. All they new for sure was that it was highly radioactive and that the search party they set to investigate never returned and was likely dead.
If they had sent you to a trivial location and you succeeded, they would have received no benefit and still have to let you in. Besides the only thing they want you to bring back is a report of what happened to the knights they sent to investigate. It was of little importance to anyone but them, so the risk was insignificant.
Ehm, the item they sent you to retrieve was a holodisk found on level 1 of the Glow telling about a bunch of BoS knights venturing into the first level of the Glow.Nullifidian said:
There's nothing valuable about that.
AGain: they did not send an outsider to get some really valuable tech. They sent an outsider to a location to get some random journal, but hopefully just to his death.
The fact that there was highly useful tech on a level that was difficult and dangerous to reach wasn't known to them.
Nullifidian
First time out of the vault
Sander said:
Wasn't known to them? They clearly thought there was valuable tech seeing as how they had already sent a contingent there.
No, a contingent had gone there just after the bombs fell and never came back. That was one exploration party who apparently went there to see what happened. That one exploration was sent basically 80 years beforehand and since then they made no attempt whatsoever to explore those ruins.Nullifidian said:
Also, quit ignoring the point: they sent you on a suicide mission. Hell, this is basically acknowledged by the second guard at the BoS door the minute you even get the mission.
Again: they do not send you to get valuable tech. At all. If you return with 'the tech' *they don't even ask for it*. How the hell is that sending you to retrieve valuable tech?
Rev. Layle
A Smooth-Skin
Yes, the DC BoS are goody two shoes in F3, comparably speaking. There is the Outcast contingent (Fort Independence - yes a bit of a spoiler, but not plot breaking) that even explain that the main BoS contingent in DC went soft. The Outcasts are performing the "original mission" of simply gathering, collecting, and cataloging technology for the future - and are a bit cold.
Yeah, I was reading through this thread and I noticed you guys didn't talk about the BoS Outcasts.
In that sense, Fallout 3 BoS is not changed or broken at all. The outcasts are the original BoS while the BoS is actually the splinter group in the D.C. area. If you speak to the BoS Outcasts they pretty much act like they're supposed to. Xenophobic assholes who only care about technology.
In that sense, Fallout 3 BoS is not changed or broken at all. The outcasts are the original BoS while the BoS is actually the splinter group in the D.C. area. If you speak to the BoS Outcasts they pretty much act like they're supposed to. Xenophobic assholes who only care about technology.
betamonkey
First time out of the vault
Not only that but you can find out they took the name "Outcasts" themselves as a satirical insult to Elder Lyons.
This post has spoilers.
That may be true, but it's completely tacked on, if they're going to take the effort of including the Outcasts as a contrast to the DC Brotherhood in order to establish that it's in the spirit of the older games, they should at least have put in a little more effort.
As it is, it feels like they only included the Outcasts as a way to maintain the original attitude of the BoS while still being able to do whatever the fuck they wanted with the DC division.
It essentially allows them to throw in whatever little reasons they desire, "Oh, well, you see, Lyons, he kind of changed his ideals, and, well, got more in touch with the native population, so now he's helping out", to provide the DC BoS as the "good" side of the main quest, because Bethesda's writers can't think of any other way to tell a story.
Along the way they attempt to throw in some shallow nods to the original BoS, like how they grew distant from Project Purity after little progress was made and left the scientists to fend for themselves. These details falter as the game goes on, and elements such as Dr. Li's stoic attitude towards the BoS completely erode by the end of the main quest, revealing the fact that Bethesda completely forgot about major character development as they wrote the story.
As such, it can be assumed that they had those same oversights when it came to their justification for the "new" BoS and the Outcasts. The Outcasts were merely thrown in to validate the existence of the benevolent BoS. Their existence, in that regard, is a completely arbitrary method of off handedly acknowledging the older games' lore.
The general idea is that you can't just have these elements thrown in, you can't just have the Outcasts and a typical BoS attitude and expect it to get the job done. In Fallout 3's case, it's simply a mediocre faction that was tossed in by the wayside.
That may be true, but it's completely tacked on, if they're going to take the effort of including the Outcasts as a contrast to the DC Brotherhood in order to establish that it's in the spirit of the older games, they should at least have put in a little more effort.
As it is, it feels like they only included the Outcasts as a way to maintain the original attitude of the BoS while still being able to do whatever the fuck they wanted with the DC division.
It essentially allows them to throw in whatever little reasons they desire, "Oh, well, you see, Lyons, he kind of changed his ideals, and, well, got more in touch with the native population, so now he's helping out", to provide the DC BoS as the "good" side of the main quest, because Bethesda's writers can't think of any other way to tell a story.
Along the way they attempt to throw in some shallow nods to the original BoS, like how they grew distant from Project Purity after little progress was made and left the scientists to fend for themselves. These details falter as the game goes on, and elements such as Dr. Li's stoic attitude towards the BoS completely erode by the end of the main quest, revealing the fact that Bethesda completely forgot about major character development as they wrote the story.
As such, it can be assumed that they had those same oversights when it came to their justification for the "new" BoS and the Outcasts. The Outcasts were merely thrown in to validate the existence of the benevolent BoS. Their existence, in that regard, is a completely arbitrary method of off handedly acknowledging the older games' lore.
The general idea is that you can't just have these elements thrown in, you can't just have the Outcasts and a typical BoS attitude and expect it to get the job done. In Fallout 3's case, it's simply a mediocre faction that was tossed in by the wayside.
betamonkey
First time out of the vault
What...?
Actually, if you think about it it works out perfectly. The "Outcasts" have very little to do with you, barely offering to take technological salvage off your hands. You are, after all, a local. Barely worth talking to unless you have your use. Meanwhile, the Lyon brigade take you in to help them fight the "Good Fight" once you prove capable.
To me it feels rather fluid. But then again I didn't go in looking for it to suck, so I guess my perspective changes things.
Actually, if you think about it it works out perfectly. The "Outcasts" have very little to do with you, barely offering to take technological salvage off your hands. You are, after all, a local. Barely worth talking to unless you have your use. Meanwhile, the Lyon brigade take you in to help them fight the "Good Fight" once you prove capable.
To me it feels rather fluid. But then again I didn't go in looking for it to suck, so I guess my perspective changes things.
I didn't "go in looking for it to suck" either because I had no idea that they would be in the game, but upon meeting them and seeing how completely pointless their existence was it was obvious that they were merely thrown in with little deliberation just to provide some meat to the backstory.
They seem like an afterthought, if there was some regular interaction between them and the BoS, or even just more elaborate dialog based on their individual opinions it would have fit in far better, but as it is their exposition is limited to "Oh, we don't really like those guys, we got in a fight, we don't like to talk about it, and they're stupid."
They could have done something more, and they should have, but they did not, and thus it seems completely tacked on and gives the impression that Bethesda merely put it in to satiate the expectations of fans in regards to lore, even if that wasn't their true intention, it's what it ended up looking as.
They seem like an afterthought, if there was some regular interaction between them and the BoS, or even just more elaborate dialog based on their individual opinions it would have fit in far better, but as it is their exposition is limited to "Oh, we don't really like those guys, we got in a fight, we don't like to talk about it, and they're stupid."
They could have done something more, and they should have, but they did not, and thus it seems completely tacked on and gives the impression that Bethesda merely put it in to satiate the expectations of fans in regards to lore, even if that wasn't their true intention, it's what it ended up looking as.
This would've made it work better, yeah. But even so, Bethesda is presenting the whole ordeal in a bad way, twisting the BoS into being the heroes of the Wasteland. The ideals of the real Brotherhood is now abstracted to the West with the Outcasts in the DC being presented as the other side of the coin (almost evil dirtbags) with the new DC BoS being the "real" ones. It's all in the presentation, the Outcasts even have darker scary armor, they are dicks towards the player and I think Sander said that they even carry teh evil fingerz!1!!. It's all in the presentation.
I'm guessing that Beth thought BoS was cool as hell in a visual way, and implemented the "heroic" BoS so that the player could be a part of this ultra cool organization with fancy tech, while at the same time being the hero of the wasteland. And it sucks.