The Brotherhood of Steel as a threat to an Independent Vegas

[The Man From Nowhere]

BoS has to go for New Vegas to remain completely independent and not threatened - especially with all the bots protecting New Vegas. Also notice how the BoS count in the Fight the Power! perk along with NCR and Legion.

All I regret is having to destroy the bunker - as all the technology they've been taking for decades just gets demolished.

 

[NMLevesque]

It does have a working fusion reactor, which is just sort of glossed over like it's nothing. That part baffles me.

 

[WeissYohji]

I generally favor the Brotherhood for their technology, and I mostly go for the Yes Man ending. I've done the NCR ending ONCE to see what kind of ending I'd get, and had the Brotherhood and NCR ally with each other then. I did two Mr. House playthroughs: One where I killed the Brotherhood and kept Veronica as a companion via an exploit, and another where I kept them alive and had House ally with them thanks to a mod that restores some cut content. The dialogue options are still in the game's files, just disabled in vanilla FNV. So far, I've never played a Legion-aligned character. Most of the time (including my first playthrough, any %), I went for the Independent Vegas ending and left the Brotherhood alive every time. Most of the time, I've booted McNamara thanks to The Chain That Binds. My current run, I kept him in charge because I plan to ally the Brotherhood and NCR between killing House and installing Yes Man. And the Brotherhood could also seize the opportunity to retake HELIOS One while the NCR and Legion are busy duking it out at Hoover Dam. I sure as hell made that a certainty by activating Archimedes AND powering the whole Mojave during That Lucky Old Sun to kill the NCR troopers, then went back later to kill the Legionaries occupying the plant, including that turncoat Fantastic. It's better he die by my tribal Courier's Fist of Rawr or a Holorifle blast to the head than on a Legion cross given that Caesar hates chems. The Brotherhood should be trusting with a tribal-originated genius Courier in charge of New Vegas knowing that she killed Elijah and the Van Graffs (while doing Heartache by the Number, well before joining the Brotherhood) while reuniting Veronica with her long-lost wife, Christine. My Courier, on the other hand, can use the Brotherhood's fear of the NCR to her advantage. Use them, or make them even more withdrawn. In my head-canon, she convinces McNamara to ally with the Followers of the Apocalypse and cut the hoarding shit for once. I've got some playthroughs under my belt where I did I Could Make You Care by finding the farming technology at Vault 22; you'd think McNamara would be all over that knowing that his Paladins can't fight if they're dead from starvation. Napoleon Bonaparte once said that an army marches on its stomach, and he was right.

 

[Ediros]

BOS nowadays are basically raiders with best tech available. In Independent New Vegas they harass travelers, they refuse to change, wipe out Followers Settlement just under suspicion of treason. Best You can do is complete Veronica's quest and slaughter them all, leaving their bunker intact this way.

 

[WeissYohji]

BOS nowadays are basically raiders with best tech available. In Independent New Vegas they harass travelers, they refuse to change, wipe out Followers Settlement just under suspicion of treason. Best You can do is complete Veronica's quest and slaughter them all, leaving their bunker intact this way.

Even if the Mojave BoS is a bunch of glorified raiders with better tech than the Legion and none of the slavery or misogyny, I still like to keep them around. It's a tactical thing. Aside from potentially retaking HELIOS, my Courier could also have them patrol the roads between HELIOS and Searchlight while she's making the Mojave socialist.

 

[Ediros]

Even if the Mojave BoS is a bunch of glorified raiders with better tech than the Legion and none of the slavery or misogyny, I still like to keep them around. It's a tactical thing. Aside from potentially retaking HELIOS, my Courier could also have them patrol the roads between HELIOS and Searchlight while she's making the Mojave socialist.

As if, BOS would probably try to take over New Vegas, Hoover dam and harass caravans and traders. They are so stuck up in their codex, You can not negotiate with them. They are a bunch of xenophobic assholes, with outdated beliefs. Unless You as a Courier convince them to back down, which is not possible in the base game.

 

[Ayelander]

I still like to keep them around. It's a tactical thing.

How exactly? You going to employ the strategic hermit maneuvre? They're ruled entirely by their outdated dogma. No dissent allowed or you can expect a gang of the real fucking zealous ones knocking on your door. And what, you think they're going to take orders from a mailman? They'll laugh in your face and shove a gauss rifle up your ass. You can't reason with a zealot, but you can certainly arrange your execution by trying.

 

[WeissYohji]

As if, BOS would probably try to take over New Vegas, Hoover dam and harass caravans and traders. They are so stuck up in their codex, You can not negotiate with them. They are a bunch of xenophobic assholes, with outdated beliefs. Unless You as a Courier convince them to back down, which is not possible in the base game.

Even if you had a silver-tongued Courier with a properly upgraded Securitron Army? Those grenade launchers and missile launchers of theirs can wreck power armor. Then there's those security holograms from the Sierra Madre; you can't shoot directly. You have to disable or destroy the emitters, which only have so much range. Surely the BoS would back down at that point, sue for peace because they don't have the numbers for a war. Ditto Boone sniping from the top of the Lucky 38 with an anti-materiel rifle and fat stack of ammo. Or the Remnants and Arcade; Enclave munitions and power armor are significantly more advanced than anything the BoS could field. Or my Courier on some Turbo/Implant GRX; hit the Turbo, snipe with some Holorifle headshots on some Paladins, then rush right in for the kill and shred through their armor. Any survivors will piss their pants knowing they got their asses handed to them by a mail carrier with a Deathclaw gauntlet and hologram rifle. And the Mojave BoS is on its way out anyway because of their hikikomori ways. If they'd wise up and be more like the Capital Wasteland BoS, that would save their asses. But no, they just have to go and be all conservative, hoarding Pre-War weapons and power armor for themselves. If they ever try any funny shit, they'll get the same reaction that anyone would get upon wearing non-Philly colors to Philly sports bar.

 

[Rheios]

I briefly used the mod to restore the peaceful Mr. House way of dealing with the BOS, but even I could see why they cut it. The argument is pretty bad in it. I can think of a better one but I imagine it'd take some *major* BOS faction rep, the right leader in charge, and a high set of skills to pull off. Possibly even an additional mission. Long story short: The only way I can see to set up a BOS-House peace would be to set up the BOS as House's human secret police and technicians. The Securitrons handle everything out in the open, but they *will* have vulnerabilities even after the upgrade. Every technology does. To prevent that, to prevent the misuse of House's technology, and to prevent illegal imitation technology, the BOS would become the blackguards of it: Their same mission of ensuring only the right people have technology but setting House as the King to their knights. They'd have the almost newest of everything (second to the Courier and House of course. Can't let them get a leg up) to help suppress problems, but it'd all be kill switch enabled to House. It'd let them survive, bend their steel to a new and more modern purpose without breaking it, and help them build for a future. That'd be the argument presented at least. It would definitely require proving that House can be trusted with the tech, something the rest of the BOS would abhor but we're talking about one small dying sect that's immediately under pressure, and I'm not sure quite how they'd do it but it can probably be done when there's the 'oh, I also have all 3 detonation codes' concept (I imagine you might have to collect them to really ram home the point). Its still pretty unlikely but finding a way to enable and direct the BOS is really the only way to deal with them other than outright destruction. They're too xenophobic for anything else.

 

[WeissYohji]

How exactly? You going to employ the strategic hermit maneuvre? They're ruled entirely by their outdated dogma. No dissent allowed or you can expect a gang of the real fucking zealous ones knocking on your door. And what, you think they're going to take orders from a mailman? They'll laugh in your face and shove a gauss rifle up your ass. You can't reason with a zealot, but you can certainly arrange your execution by trying.

While the NCR and Legion are fighting at Hoover Dam, they can seize HELIOS. And if the Brotherhood tries to turn on my Courier, her Grand Armée des Sécuritrons will crush them. If the Securitrons don't come first, maybe some leftover Fiends defecting to the winning team after seeing their leaders crushed will. Or maybe some leftover Powder Gangers with an intimate knowledge of the local geography. Remember the Brotherhood's disadvantage: NUMBERS. Veronica says it herself that they can't compete with the NCR's might, nor the Legion's. You can seize and stash all the power armor, Gauss rifles, and plasma pistols you want but it won't make a difference if a superior enemy is right on your ass. Also, my Courier has BEEN TO HIDDEN VALLEY! That means she knows the area and thus knows both herself and the Brotherhood. Sun Tzu once said that if you know yourself and the enemy, you needn't fear the result of a hundred battles. Surround the valley and bunker, maybe have the Remnants fly in with a vertibird, send some Boomers to bomb the valley, and the Brotherhood won't stand a chance.

Also, consider Veronica. I've always had her leave the Brotherhood and join the Followers. Even if she leaves Hidden Valley, that's still her family. The Brotherhood's got some decent people in it (her and Christine included); they're just overshadowed by the assholes running the show.

 

[KingArthur]

a bunch of glorified raiders with better tech than the Legion and none of the slavery or misogyny

[TRIGGERED]

But in seriousness, even with a silver tongue the Brotherhood isn’t just gonna bend to the Courier. And if they’re sitting on an army of securitrons, they’re liable to just take the tech through force because that’s what they do. You’re making assumptions about a faction as unwavering as the Legion, but in a different way.

 

[NMLevesque]

Paragraphs people...that's all I'm saying.

 

[WeissYohji]

[TRIGGERED]

But in seriousness, even with a silver tongue the Brotherhood isn’t just gonna bend to the Courier. And if they’re sitting on an army of securitrons, they’re liable to just take the tech through force because that’s what they do. You’re making assumptions about a faction as unwavering as the Legion, but in a different way.

But what if the Courier joined the Brotherhood, though? Surely that would be an asset to them if Mr. House is out of the picture. Ditto keeping McNamara in charge AND brokering a peace treaty between the Brotherhood and NCR.

 

[KingArthur]

But what if the Courier joined the Brotherhood, though? Surely that would be an asset to them if Mr. House is out of the picture. Ditto keeping McNamara in charge AND brokering a peace treaty between the Brotherhood and NCR.

Perhaps you have a point there; I’m simply of a mind that even if the courier is one’ve them the Brotherhood’s codex will trump that, like it did with Veronica in I Could Make You Care.

 

[WeissYohji]

Let's not forget that Veronica also said that McNamara is one of the Brotherhood's more progressive members. If you ally him and the NCR, he tells you that the Brotherhood has given up its claims to HELIOS and has no interest in Hoover Dam.

 

[KingArthur]

I’m not denying that; but what I’m saying is that progressive as he is, McNamara still won’t budge In I Could Make You Care. And he still can’t control the Brotherhood members loyal to the codex to a fault who slaughter the Followers outpost. The Brotherhood are absolutely a threat because, as I’ve been saying, even the most progressive among them are loyal to their codex first. And take it from a Legion supporter, people like that won’t play nice with others when they’ve got something people like that want, in this case tech.

 

[WeissYohji]

In my head-canon, McNamara (or Hardin, if I ousted him) does. Partly out of respect for a new member, partly out of respect for Veronica (since I also had her in my party at Hoover Dam), and partly out of fear of having his shit wrecked by Boomers, Remnants, Securitrons, and maybe an ex-Fiend or two (what with the deaths of the Fiend leaders).

 

[KingArthur]

In my head-canon, McNamara (or Hardin, if I ousted him) does. Partly out of respect for a new member, partly out of respect for Veronica (since I also had her in my party at Hoover Dam), and partly out of having his shit wrecked by Boomers, Remnants, Securitrons, and maybe an ex-Fiend or two (what with the deaths of the Fiend leaders).

I mean I totally understand where you’re coming from; but the way McNamara and Hardin act in-game is a lot less progressive than in said headcanon. I wish I could say that the Brotherhood were good for Indie Vegas, or any faction for that matter; but as it stands they are a viable threat in all situations and must be eliminated. I gave them a chance when I did an Indie playthrough, and aside from helping evacuate the NCR I didn’t really see them doing anything that... “good”. They still seemed very removed from the actions of the Mojave, and I think from a practical standpoint their unflinching ideology is dangerous. The best way I can describe it is you know how everyone sees the Legion? That’s how the Legion sees the BoS. It might be hypocritical, but as a Caesar supporter I see the Brotherhood as a well-equipped Raider gang that will do their utmost to undermine the winning factions’ efforts with their tech fetish. They’re not bad; just misguided. They believe that by hoarding tech they can prevent history from repeating itself and that’s just... ignorant. History will always repeat à la Nietzsche’s eternal recurrence. Might as well repeat it with the raider gang that has the ideology of “assimilate and we’ll leave you alone” rather than “give us your tech because you can’t be trusted with it, you waster fuck”.

 

[WeissYohji]

You forget that like Caesar, McNamara/Hardin won't be around forever. Eventually, someone else will come along and replace either of them as Elder. And that new lizard might be more open to working with outsiders than the last one was.

 

[Risewild]

You forget that like Caesar, McNamara/Hardin won't be around forever. Eventually, someone else will come along and replace either of them as Elder. And that new lizard might be more open to working with outsiders than the last one was.

Or it might be more open to not work with outsiders.
So we have three alternatives:

• More open to work with outsiders
• Be exactly the same as now
• Less open to work with outsiders

So there is only 1 out of 3 chances of that happening, and considering the BoS track record and their Codex, ideology, and actions in previous games (Fallout 3 excluded). I think they will be more inclined to not work with outsiders still.