"The French are a bunch of surrender monkeys!"

Brother None

This ghoul has seen it all
Orderite
This is a chart of the results of European country vs. European country wars since 1768 of some major powers:

(ratio = number of wars divided by number of wars won)

UK Wars: 6 Won: 6 Lost: 0 Ratio: 100%
Holland Wars: 5 Won: 4 Lost: 1 Ratio: 80%
France Wars: 17 Won: 12 Lost: 5 Ratio: 71%
Russia Wars: 17 Won: 11 Lost: 4 Ratio: 65% (2 undecided)
Germany Wars: 13 Won: 8 Lost: 5 Ratio: 62%
Greece Wars: 6 Won: 3 Lost: 1 Ratio: 50% (2 undecided)
Poland Wars: 6 Won: 3 Lost: 3 Ratio: 50%
Denmark Wars: 2 Won: 1 Lost: 1 Ratio: 50%
Austria Wars: 15 Won: 6 Lost: 9 Ratio: 40% (including Hungary)
Italy Wars: 6 Won: 2 Lost: 3 Ratio: 33% (1 undecided)
Turkey Wars: 14 Won: 4 Lost: 5 Ratio: 29% (5 undecided)
Spain Wars: 4 Won: 0 Lost: 4 Ratio: 0%

<hr>

*shakes fist*

So yeah, stop calling the French surrender monkeys just because they didn't want to invade Iraq.
 
Sander said:
ttp://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

Cute, but you'd have to be a complete moron to believe that's a COMPLETE list of all wars France ever fought. I mean, it's a European world power, it'd have to be either 1) very impressive or 2) Switzerland to compete in such a low number of wars.
 
No, just Americans remember that France was losing in WWI, and lost in WWII. And they find that hilarious. I dunno, its a silly concept.
 
Actually and technically, the French won World War 2 with the allies. Don't forget that they are part of the invasion force into France, that they also participated in the battles of Italy (in fact the Free French Forces in Italy were some of the best troops - but ok, so they were from North Africa). That the French lose in 1940 has more to do with leadership, much of the leadership was held-over from WW 1. Yet, when De Gaulle launches a counter attack using limited (if superior) French tanks against Rommel's Ghost division, he has signficant (if short-term) success.

The problem for the French is not so much bravery, but doctrine. Because of problems between the left and right in domestic politics, the professional officers relied on a conscript enlisted and therefore adopted a defensive doctrrine over the Maginot line. However, that line could have been used offensively, as forward bases.

So yes, the French lose Paris, and for a while they become Vichy France, but in the end the French are part of the force that retakes their home and drives into Germany.

The French also won World War 1 (with a lot of help from the English and much later the US). For the most part it was French troops on the battlefields, and that a good part of a generation lost their lives their should also show that the French are willing to stick out their necks. When the Americans landed, their tanks and much of their supply came from the French and English.

Also don't forget that for a good part of the turn of the 18th Century, France was the dominant power of Europe. The French army conquered just about all of Europe but suffered the problem most empires do- over stretch. Considering that the French seem to be fighting just about everyone in Europe, what the French achieve is not matched until Germany tries it over a century later.

The loss of their colonies in Indochina and North Africa can also be seen as the effect of having just come through a costly war and the inability to confront highly mobilized independence movements when it was still licking its wounds.

Compare that to the French more recently, and the army is more impressive. The French have been fairly effective in their deployments abroad and French weapons are very competitive with US for international sales.

Now when you think about those advocates who support the end of NATO and replacing it with a more European force, what you are talking about is a more militarily strong France tied in union with Germany. Germany has its own constitutional issues with sending forces abroad, but France has a strong hold on to its former empire. With French desires to dominate the EU politically- this is enough for Americans to take the French a bit seriously.

The virtue of the last 50 years or so is that generally the Europeans and the AMericans have had common interests, but there has been a fair amount of competition as well, especially lately. For the smaller countries of Europe, I think you have to ask if you would prefer an over-horizon pax americana or an in-your-backyard pax-franco-germania. I fear you are unlikely to find the same support for your individual autonomy from France as you might the US.

There are good reasons for the French disagreements with the US. Two issues stand out. For one, the French were not as fond of German reunification into West Germany after the Second World War. The French still had bad memories of conquest and saw that the Germans could conceivably do it again. There is plenty of reason to argue that Germany is the dominant state of Europe today. For another the US was very active in putting down communist movements in France after WW 2. (For those who don't know much of the French resistance was communist).

But I think most of all was the Suez Crisis, when the US told France, Israel and England they could not intervene in Egypt for the Suez Canal. For England this meant that from now on they would tow the US line and saw junior partnership status with the US as the best choice. THis makes sense when you consider the importance the English have in international security and international capital mobility. For the US and Israel, it tied the two countries together. But for France, it was an insult and a betrayal. The US was responding in large part due to anti-colonialism - in otherwords against the French empire. But for France this merely meant that the US was trying to remove France as empire for an empire of its own design. Furthermore, the French could not wholly trust the US for its security and certainly not for leadership.

Kharn- if you look at your numbers something doesn't match. You have a lot more "wins" then "loses". I would hasten to aid that the Brits have not been quite so lucky with their colonial wars (although they have not done as badly as the Portugues or the Netherlands).
 
Wow... In America... we barely learn about European history. And we are soooo much younger than Europe.
 
The Germans where weeks from wining WW1 when we came along. They had just closed down the Russian Front, and there was no hope for the French outside of America.
Also, I think thier exceptionally poor performance in the Fraco-Prussian war has ALOT to do with it.
 
We didn't do bad with our colonial wars, welsh, in fact, we didn't actually lose any. We gave up INdonesia because of outside pressure, and the other countries were released willingly. Before that, we had no problems(to my knowledge) with colonies. We did sell New Amsterdam to the English for Suriname(Which was a good deal at the time), and the English named it New York. Meh.

As for Vichy France, Vichy France was mainly a state that was being controlled by the Germans, even though it wasn't officially so. It was it's own seperate state, but mostly because the Germans didn't want that part of France, and as long as those French wouldn't oppose them they just let them exist.

And yes, Maddog, the USA is soooo much younger than the countries in Europe are, mostly....
 
Did you know Churchil insisted in prolonging the invasion on Normandy just to make more & more Russians slaughtered by Germans!America wanted to land in 1942 but nooo was the answer from Churchil.And that "Operation Paperclip" (transfer of German scientists(Verner fon Braun,Dr(hmm).Mengele,...),other faschist leaders,...) that was done by USA & Vatican.
 
Also, your information is highly suspect at the beggining Khran. THe Ottoman Empire of 1700 was about ten times the size of the Ottoman Empire of 2000- and technically, it does not even exsist.
 
In response to a couple of points-

Yes, Sander, you are right. The Netherlands didn't do that badly. Although you did have to fight it out in Indonesia. But if you can't bust the hump of the Dutch, well what fun is there. Hey and don't be so down on New York. That's a good piece of real estate they bought (and my home town!). Also don't discount that while the Germans were willing to occupy and control Vichy France, Vichy France was not without teeth. THe Vichy are able to control much of the remains of the French Navy, which was sizeable enough that the British had to either take it out of service (as in Egypt) or sink it. It was the sinking of a number of French ships that was why the invasion of North Africa was led by Americans and not Brits. The Brits were afraid the French would shoot it out.

As for the Franco-Prussian War- I think you need to look at the issue of leadership and technical prowess. In many ways the Franco-Prussian war was the first modern war, and much of the success has to do with the Germans learning how to fight effectively, and thereby revolutionizing war fighting.

With regard to World War I, yes the Germans had just finished up in Russia and had turned their forces against France. That said, the Germans almost take France early in the war- I believe it is the Miracle of the Marne that has Parisian taxis driving troops to the front. But the German plan , the Schlieffen Plan (which was also the basic plan of World War 2) had calculated on an early win in France and a more difficult time in Russia. There is a good argument that the Germans were primarily worried about the Russians who had begun a rearmament plan that would have given them the edge (see Dale Copeland's book on the Origins of Major Wars).

That said the last big offensive by the Germans against the French and British happens before the Americans show up. In that offensive it is the French and British that are able to stop the German advance, and in so doing, rob the Germans of their last chance to win. While the American war effort mattered, it was more a case of ending the duration of the war. The Germans had lost so much in that offensive that they couldn't match the influx of fresh Americans into the war. In the end Germany loses because its exhausted. This is not to say that the Americans didn't fight some big battles, but the US comes in at the very end.

With regard to World War 2, you are right that the Americans wanted to invade earlier. One of the reasons why the Americans invade Italy rather than France was Churchill. Churchill was concerned about the war's end. In it he envisioned a Europe dominated by a communist russia. While he would ally with the devil to defeat Hitler, he didn't really want to live with that devil as a neighbor. Churchill also had in mind an operation in Norway to draw German troops, leading to the creation of a mixed US-Canadian force trained in mountain and artic warfare- the First Special Service Force, which was subject of a movie- the Devil's Brigade (and not a bad book too).

The argument that the delay in invasion of France led to an attrition of Germans against the Russians was widely believed by the Russians and Stalin. Had the US invaded France in '42 I think it would have been a harder fight- the US technical edge and force is peaking in '44. That said, the tide of the war is turned earlier, at the siege of Stalingrad (and the German adventure in Africa at El Alamein). After that, the tide is against the Germans.

That said, the Germans have lost quite a few wars as well. Yet you don't see to many people calling them pussies.
 
Ehmm norway has participated in what perhaps 3 wars since 1800 and there were very few before that.

I think it is a question about time. Now the germans kicked everyones ass for a while and that was only a little more than 50 years ago while the french kicked everyones ass several hundreds of years ago. Now we norwegians (and swedish and danish) kicked everyones ass about a thousand years ago. Noone is afraid of us now.

Also seeing how much controll the us has in iraq right now, you can also say that the decision to not to participate in the war was an act of wisdom and not of cowardness. I know i´m provoking a few people now but i think that i might be a point there somewhere, i have not heard anything about holding free elections yet, even though we were promised it would happen soon. Instead i hear of terrorist bombing, hate and anger in the general population.
 
Loxley said:
Ehmm norway has participated in what perhaps 3 wars since 1800

Participation? I wouldn't call sending a group of what?...like ten people to some war participation. Norway's military strenght aren't high enough to prevent an inviasion from...Ehh anybody. So feel free to invade the probably only country with a female defense minister any time.
Loxley said:
the decision to not to participate in the war was an act of wisdom
It sure was.
 
I really wouldn't count Colonial wars. (at least for Europe).
To quote "Blackadder"

"Back when I joined, we were still fighting colonial wars. If you saw someone in a skirt, you shot him and stole his country. What else? They were armed with very sharp mangoes"
 
I would hasten to aid that the Brits have not been quite so lucky with their colonial wars (although they have not done as badly as the Portugues or the Netherlands).

Er, sorry welsh, but this one i can`t really get, not for military pride, i wished the colonial wars didn`t happen in the first place, but because it doesn`t make sense with the history of colonial wars i know, what do you mean?

Oh and Kharn where did you get that list? It has quite a few strange results...
 
It's funny that people don't like to think about colonial wars as real wars. That the British took a major defeat to the Zulus doesn't seem to stand up. Is the Boer War a colonial war? French colonial wars? The Siege of Kartoum? The Sepoy Mutiny? Even the varied conflicts in China were all colonial wars. In terms of lives lost, these are not without signifance.

Consider- the intervention by the US and then the UN in Somalia are essentially modern variants of colonial wars. US interventions in the Central America were its own form of colonial wars as well.

Briosafreak- What I meant was this. The British colonial wars were not without their success. For example the Brits did put down the communist insurgency in Malaysia but did lose that country in the end. They also successfully resolved the Kikuyu uprising in Kenya. If you go back a century, they were successful in fighting the Sepoy mutiny even after suffering some significant defeats. But in the end they did lose Kenya, Malaysia. Cyprus was not one of the best moments for the Brits. The current Palestinian problems can also be traced to Brit colonial policies, as can the conflicts between Pakistan and India over Kashmir. True the Brits were in the process of withdrawing from their colonies and were interested in withdrawing anyway.

While the Brit record is hardly perfect, there are some valauable lessons to learn about counter-insurgency conflict.

Now compare to Indonesia for the Netherlands and the Portuguese colonies. Portugual was very reluctant to give up their colonies. Thus they had some difficult wars and Portuguese colonies got independence fairly late. The Netherlands had to be fought to withdraw from Indonesia. While the Brits were often able to leave on their own terms and often after resolving some of the colonial problems they had.

I agree- that colonial wars are not objects of pride and are often remembered with a sense of embarrassment. But the record is a mixed one. The post-colonial successes in Kenya and Malaysia, for instance, owe some credit to their colonial legacy.
 
Now compare to Indonesia for the Netherlands and the Portuguese colonies. Portugual was very reluctant to give up their colonies. Thus they had some difficult wars and Portuguese colonies got independence fairly late. The Netherlands had to be fought to withdraw from Indonesia. While the Brits were often able to leave on their own terms and often after resolving some of the colonial problems they had.

What you`re saying, and i agree, is that political solutions backed up by military strength worked better in decolonisation periods/conflicts.

But this thread had more to do with military success or lack of it, and when you study the Portuguese colonial wars (the last european Empire as some call it) in strict military terms there was one lost war, in Guinea-Bissau, one of the most fascinating conflicts to study guerrila tactics and modern counter insurgency methods, but the other three fronts were pretty much controled, wich was bizarre giving the fact that the portuguese military were far from motivated and the hardware was ancient to say the least (WWII planes...). It was rather strange how in military terms we were better even fighting in four fronts than the american were in Vietnam...

Do study a bit on the soviet and chinese guerrilas and the CIA backed groups that fought the Portuguese, together with the dreams of the creation of a South Africa Cooperation Association, the last colonial project to Africa, that had supporters in the Apartheid South Africa and a few Far Right groups in the portuguese military, all of these issues help in understanding the present context in western and south Africa affairs.

If you want to go a bit further on these issues try the english versions of the books that talk about Portuguese-American relations on the period through Truman to Ford made by José Freire Antunes, a Columbia researcher, and stay away from the Kissinger crowd at Harvard, they are always trying to cover his blunders and poor judgement at those times....

On the military side, regarding the portuguese colonial wars, i have to say that the european studies are way better, so if you want to find something about the issue you probably get more reliable info by french, spanish, italian and portuguese authors .
 
Thanks for the citations, and yes, it is a bit off topic. But then when most of the wars that have been fought since the second world war have been in the developing world (either civil or inter-state) I think that this area needs to be reconsidered. Is the Iraq conflict a colonial war? In many ways its shaping to look that way- even if Iraq is not officially a colony.

I am not surprised that the Portuguese and European reads are better, nor is it that surprising that the Portuguese did well with World War 2 technology. If anything, the history of counter-insurgent warfare is that its not usually technology that wins the game, but good tactics and a good mix of the political and strategic thinking. Sorry Briosafreak, but it seems that the Portuguese idea of holding on to an empire seems to have taken too long to absolve itself and maybe that delay proved expensive.

Would like to hear more on your thoughts on these conflicts. My point was primarily that in the end Portugal have to end their colonial rule and the fact that the violence was so intense also represents, to some extent, a failure of colonial policy. No offense to the Portuguese here, but it seems a seems a sad affair that the Portuguese had to fight it out for so long and that both Mozambique and Angola have such tragic histories.

On Vietnam, I am actually reading an interesting article of a number of scholars trying to draw lessons from the Vietnam War and I am wondering how appropriate these thoughts are for Iraq. The article features comments by Hoffman, Huntington, May, Neustadt and Schelling and was done in 1981. Interesting to see how some of the mistakes seems to be replayed.

But maybe Iraq deserves a seperate thread.
 
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