"The French are a bunch of surrender monkeys!"

[welsh]

I actually think the Spanish would have had a hell of a time conquering England and imposing their rule on England, and English vessels would do well vis-a-vis the Spanish.

However, I agree, the Spanish navy, but for that big storm, would have probably overwhelmed the English in the end.

 

[John Uskglass]

I doubt they would have had such succes on land. They might have been the major power at the time, but the idea that the Spanish could stay for prolonged periods of time in a Protestent England is absurd.
Also, case in point- Napoli&Sicily where under Aragonese rule for a very long time, yet they dont speak Spanish/Catalan, do they?

 

[John Uskglass]

How much do you want to bet that one English meal would turn Aguirre into a Frenchmen?

 

[OnTheBounce]

I doubt they would have had such succes on land. They might have been the major power at the time, but the idea that the Spanish could stay for prolonged periods of time in a Protestent England is absurd.

Don't sell the Spanish short. They were the power for a reason and remember that you're looking in 1588 you're looking at the army that had brought Swiss military supremacy down only a generation before. Then don't forget to add in that if the English Navy had been defeated, and the Spanish landed troops there are some people right in the English backyard that would definitely have liked to see some scores settled.

Also, case in point- Napoli&Sicily where under Aragonese rule for a very long time, yet they dont speak Spanish/Catalan, do they?

I didn't say they'd speak it, I said that it would be the official language, i.e. they'd be conducting gov't business in it. Yes, there was a bit of hyperbole in that bit, and I'm sorry you couldn't get past it.

OTB

 

[welsh]

Aren't the dark haired Scots the distant relatives of Spaniards who got washed up in Scotland and "did the lambada of love" with the local Scot girls?

Maybe a little Latino would have been good for England. Probably would have improved the food.

 

[Sander]

Don't sell the Spanish short. They were the power for a reason and remember that you're looking in 1588 you're looking at the army that had brought Swiss military supremacy down only a generation before. Then don't forget to add in that if the English Navy had been defeated, and the Spanish landed troops there are some people right in the English backyard that would definitely have liked to see some scores settled.

And still when the Netherlands proclaimed their independence, the Spanish couldn't crush them, in fact they were very much losing, so much, in fact, that they had the leader of the rebellion/resistance assassinated. The Spanish weren't that good, they got beaten up by a bunch of rebels in the Netherlands with poor equipment and with the rebellious "navy" having a pirate-like way of functioning.

And because the Spanish were fighting at two fronts at the same time, I very much doubt that they could've defeated a world power on a very inaccessible island.

Small fact: King William III of England was the ruler of the Netherlands as well, with the Netherlands being a protestant oriented country(still with a freedom of religion, though), that's where you get the orange Irish protestant thing from. Meh, don't know why I just said that, really.

 

[OnTheBounce]

And still when the Netherlands proclaimed their independence, the Spanish couldn't crush them, in fact they were very much losing, so much, in fact, that they had the leader of the rebellion/resistance assassinated. The Spanish weren't that good, they got beaten up by a bunch of rebels in the Netherlands with poor equipment and with the rebellious "navy" having a pirate-like way of functioning.

That's not a very good comparison, though, is it? You're comparing apples to oranges (no pun intended) when you're comparing conventional to unconventional warfare. Most conventional armies have a very poor record when confronted w/unconventional opponents. The US in Vietnam, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, the Germans in the Soviet Union (partisan aspects of the "Great Patriotic War" '41-'44), etc., etc. Not only that, but England wouldn't have been fighting a single front war, either. I'm sure the Scotts would have joined in -- this was a particularly bitter point in Anglo-Scotch relations -- not to mention the Irish and the French weren't exactly in love w/them, either. It very well could have come down to one victory for the Spanish, and everyone would have climbed on top of the English.

The Spanish were definitely the naval power of their time. Nobody, not the English, nor the Dutch, was able to stand up to them in a pitched naval battle. Notice that anyone who scored any successes against them used hit-and-run tactics rather than meeting them in set-piece engagements. True, the Spanish were vulnerable to this sort of approach, but notice also that the Spanish shipping lanes didn't exactly fall apart.

And because the Spanish were fighting at two fronts at the same time, I very much doubt that they could've defeated a world power on a very inaccessible island.

The logisitical aspects of a full-blown invasion would have been daunting, but it isn't as though England has two oceans protecting her, just a slim strip of water that can be seen across at some points on a clear day. I'd say the best bet the English would have had -- barring the historical version w/its "divine wind" -- would have been to achieve a pyrhic naval victory, to make the undertaking too expensive for the Spanish.

I also wouldn't necessarily count on English political unity at the time. True, people will often unite against an outsider, but there were a lot of resentments stewing over Henry VIII's having seceded from the Church, with Catholics having suffered a great deal of persecution.

Cheers,

OTB

 

[Sander]

I know my comparison wasn't all that valid, in fact, it was probably even less valid than you may think. Because the Dutch used a lot of odd tactics, the first city actually "conquered" was Briel, and it was conquered just by a band of rebellious pirate-like people with a boat saying "In the name of Orange, open the gates.", and miraculously, the gates were opened and they had their first city.
Other accounts are that of Breda, where they invaded the city by hiding on turf boats, and the defense of LEiden, where they flooded the land with water by opening the dikes.

However, I still don't think the Spanish would've gotten that far, you don't conquer land with ships, you conquer it with men, the SPanish couldn't have launched an assault via the south, because of the white cliffs, and I sincerely doubt they would've gotten much result, since the English aren't really defenseless puppies on an island, they had a pretty large army(They WERE a world power), and their navy could've done a lot as well, although the Spanish might've won at that time *shrugs*.

However, it all remains uncertain, and what we're doing here is merely guessing. If only we could actually try it out, but we can't, so this is all hyothetical and theory, making it rather futile and impossible to test.

 

[welsh]

However, I still don't think the Spanish would've gotten that far, you don't conquer land with ships, you conquer it with men, the SPanish couldn't have launched an assault via the south, because of the white cliffs, and I sincerely doubt they would've gotten much result, since the English aren't really defenseless puppies on an island, they had a pretty large army(They WERE a world power), and their navy could've done a lot as well, although the Spanish might've won at that time *shrugs*.

OK, my history of Europe is beginning to fade, so I turn over to the locals.

But from what I know of England, I don't think the White Cliffs would have made that much of a difference. There are ports in the South, and it is possible for an army to land in other places of the world.

The Spanish were formidable, but don't forget that they were also fighting in other parts of the world too. Much of the gold taken from the New World didn't just fund their empire, but also went East, to China.

But I thought that one reason that the Netherlands was able to get away with it was, (gasp!) the French. I'd like to hear more about that.

 

[Sander]

...

I don't think the French had anything at all to do with it, besides that a lot of French protestants fled to the Netherlands. Meh, I may be wrong, but I never heard of French involvement. The only thing it could've done was block the way for Spanish troops so they couldn't get to the Netherlands that easily...

 

[welsh]

Exactly, considering that the French are catholic, and the spanish are catholic, one would think they might have worked together to get rid of the these pesky dutch.

Rather, French strategic interests says, no, Spain stays out. National interest of the French outweigh that of religious concerns, allowing the the Netherlands to survive. Furthermore, considering the Netherlands are more a nautical threat to the Spanish, they also serve the purpose of balancing against a naval threat to France.

Pretty clever of those Frenchies.

 

[welsh]

Exactly, considering that the French are catholic, and the spanish are catholic, one would think they might have worked together to get rid of the these pesky dutch.

Rather, French strategic interests says, no, Spain stays out. National interest of the French outweigh that of religious concerns, allowing the the Netherlands to survive. Furthermore, considering the Netherlands are more a nautical threat to the Spanish, they also serve the purpose of balancing against a naval threat to France.

Pretty clever of those Frenchies.

 

[Sander]

Hehe, perhaps, but I don't know, in fact, looking on google I found nothing, and I can't remember anything about ever hearing or reading about the French doing anything, not even blocking.

 

[welsh]

Duh! This is the time of Queen Margot (by Dumas)!

No, it seems that France was something of a mess. For those interested, here is a site-

http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm

 

[Briosafreak]

Exactly, considering that the French are catholic, and the spanish are catholic, one would think they might have worked together to get rid of the these pesky dutch.

Rather, French strategic interests says, no, Spain stays out. National interest of the French outweigh that of religious concerns, allowing the the Netherlands to survive. Furthermore, considering the Netherlands are more a nautical threat to the Spanish, they also serve the purpose of balancing against a naval threat to France.

Pretty clever of those Frenchies.

And so Modernity was born, fascinating times indeed...

 

[welsh]

And so Modernity was born, fascinating times indeed...

If only it were true. Looking briefly at French 16th century, it seems that you have patrimonial leaders utilizing religion for political purposes, yet again. Pretty weak France really, I reckon you have to wait a few more years till modernity kicks in.

 

[Sander]

France is incredibly slow at that, I love the fact how the Netherlands were way ahead of everyone at that point and for several centuries to follow(First Republic(Next to Venice), freedom of religion(even though protestantism was favored, but that's more the people and partially a consequence of the Spanish rule), pretty cool science stuff(Physics, things like vacuum globes and stuff), found a way around AFrica, established the Kaap on the southernmost point, colonised INdonesia, traded spices, colonised Manhattan, first to come up with the stock idea, great economical things. Ie. we ruled!) ...

 

[welsh]

France is incredibly slow at that, I love the fact how the Netherlands were way ahead of everyone at that point and for several centuries to follow(First Republic(Next to Venice), freedom of religion(even though protestantism was favored, but that's more the people and partially a consequence of the Spanish rule), pretty cool science stuff(Physics, things like vacuum globes and stuff), found a way around AFrica, established the Kaap on the southernmost point, colonised INdonesia, traded spices, colonised Manhattan, first to come up with the stock idea, great economical things. Ie. we ruled!) ...

Yes, that, but then you have the Dutch East India company soon slaughtering entire societies for spices, but feeling good about it.

Seems there comes a cost with every moment of gradeur.

Hmmmm......

 

[Sander]

Yeah, well, I was trying to ignore that, it doesn't look that good.

Meh, brings up another thing: History is written by the victor. ONe of the most true things ever, in my opinion. Although the effect is severely declining lately...

 

[Briosafreak]

And so Modernity was born, fascinating times indeed...

If only it were true. Looking briefly at French 16th century, it seems that you have patrimonial leaders utilizing religion for political purposes, yet again. Pretty weak France really, I reckon you have to wait a few more years till modernity kicks in.

The seeds are there, later Richelieu just give it that extra "coolness" , "raison d´etát " coolness...

I agree though, when the King of France (sort of, a simplification given the nature of states at that time) heard about the Treaty of Tordesillas (the first attempt of a bilateral world...) he just made a bored expression, and said: "someone forgot to tell me the world was going to be divided".