The Future

Mining other planets in the solar system for resources, expanding colonies, the same pattern of growth civilization has always underwent. Alternatives to plastics and petroleum products. 30% of former civilized popluation now destitute, and undergoing some Philip K. Dick nightmare. The rest are dry, logical, unemotional slaves to the system undergoing some Philip K. Dick nightmare. China owns everything.
 
In the future we will still be buying into the collective leftist lie of global warming, and the collective right-wing lie that the oil supply is running low.

By then mars and the earth will have simultaneously warmed up, and shitfucks like al gore will still claim that it's caused by the fat cat's cars.
 
So what we have learned from this thread so far is that humanity could benefit from a massive world war to thin the population?

I say we go back to trench warfare and firing lines where the opposing forces march towards each other.
 
Bal-Sagoth said:
So what we have learned from this thread so far is that humanity could benefit from a massive world war to thin the population?

I say we go back to trench warfare and firing lines where the opposing forces march towards each other.

Indeed, the malthusian limit is quite an absolute fellow.
 
We can make oil from turkey guts, recycled plastic, and any number of other sources. It costs about $80 a barrel though.

Oil is a fully renewable resource. It just costs a little more to make than it does to extract currently. When the only sources, or when most sources, are expensive to extract, you'll see more manufacturing done.

We aren't running out of anything any time soon.
 
Mining other planets in the solar system for resources

Too expensive. I mean, why use ships to go to other planets and bring stuff back, when all humanity has to do is to dig deeper? If all the uranium in the world got put into nuclear powerplants, we could move the whole planet if we wanted to.
 
So what we have learned from this thread so far is that humanity could benefit from a massive world war to thin the population?
Funny enough, I just remembered something a different class at my school was discussing last year. Apparently, they were talking about the 10 best things for the earth. I really only remember a few, and I have no idea how accurate they are, but they all involve human population lowering.

Aids
Cars - more people die in traffic accidents
Guns
etc.
 
Interesting thread.

First im going to retort to alec, not because I hate him or have singled him out, but because he has got my attention.

As far as 'alternative resources' being a scam, that is not true. Alec, 1/3 of Brazil's car's run on ethanol extracted from Sugar Cane. It is a form of biodiesel. Brazil leads the world in reseach, production and export of biofuels.

Secondly, you mention 'then you drove home with your fossil fueled car'. While this may be true to most, today I drove from uni to the town center on an E-Bike. Think of it as a scooter, only powered by electricity. Isn't it amazing! You plug it into the wall (like a mobile phone) and it recharges! Coming to think of it, thats a great idea to aleviate congestion in Big Cities.

All E-Bikes are powered by electricity (plus reducing CO2 emissions), are small (thus saving space on the road and massively reducing congestion) and a fast and effective form of short range transport (70 miles on a single charge). Wouldn't it be great if E-Bikes were the main form of transport within major cities? Compulsory for commuters, and people who simply *work* (not live) in Cities. Cars could be reserved for travel outside of cities, again massively reducing fossil fuel consumption. Its a shame most businessmen and workers will not be willing to part with the confort of their own cars. Lazy bastards.

As for water, I still cannot believe we have not found a cheap method of desalinisation. I hear Israel does it with some sucess, and some countries are planning on using Nuclear Reactors for both energy and desalinisation. Sounds like killing two birds with one stone. The problem is transporting that water thousands of miles inland to landlocked countries.

Also, fossil fuels are not *everything*. I agree that without it life would be near impossible, but your labelling that fossil fuels is in every corner of life is misleading. As mentioned before, a water wheel can power a generator which can power a factory which can make clothing. On a larger scale, a Hydroelectric dam can power a city. To put your argument to shame further, that 'Building almost anything requires fossil fuel', as already mentioned, mining doesn't (Except for transport but electricity can power that aswell), do you seriously believe that if humans could erect the fucking pyramid of giza thousands of years ago by hand, and without cranes (modern ones), bulldozers and tractors and FOSSIL FUELS, that we can't erect a windmill/wind farm today?

Alas, societal collapse is a constant of civilization. It WILL happen. I suspect due to food shortages. Drought, Pandemic, Nuclear War... the very technology that can save us could also lead to our anihiliation.
 
Iam not really afraid of shortage of resources, mankind will always adapt to its needs, just look at Soylent Green. Iam more afraid that soon we will live in dystopian society where Earth will be split in a few factions or united under one rule and ordinary people like me will be nothing more of a drones with no freedom.
 
TheRatKing said:
But...but... Soylent Green is PEOPLE!
Okay man listen, when that first guy broke news we didn't care and we don't care anymore now that you've said. 'Shit tastes good so who cares?
 
Chancellor Kremlin said:
As far as 'alternative resources' being a scam, that is not true. Alec, 1/3 of Brazil's car's run on ethanol extracted from Sugar Cane. It is a form of biodiesel. Brazil leads the world in reseach, production and export of biofuels.
Biodiesel made from foodcrops such as soybeans and sugarcane add to the concerns about rising food prices due to the shifting of crops from food production to energy production. Maybe it's wrong to call that a scam. Let's simply call that 'inhumane'.

Also: 1/3 of Brazil's cars = a fraction of all the cars that roam the Earth.

Alsoplustoo: biodiesel is usually blended with regular gasoline. Most of the time those are 5% blends. The highest recommended blend is 20%. Add more than that and your engine will fail to work eventually. Your garanty does not cover fucking up your engine with crap that has not been approved by the car's manufacturer. The pomo-hippies that retinker your car to run on all sorts of alternative fuels do not tell you this.

Secondly, you mention 'then you drove home with your fossil fueled car'. While this may be true to most, today I drove from uni to the town center on an E-Bike. Think of it as a scooter, only powered by electricity. Isn't it amazing! You plug it into the wall (like a mobile phone) and it recharges! Coming to think of it, thats a great idea to aleviate congestion in Big Cities.

All E-Bikes are powered by electricity (plus reducing CO2 emissions), are small (thus saving space on the road and massively reducing congestion) and a fast and effective form of short range transport (70 miles on a single charge). Wouldn't it be great if E-Bikes were the main form of transport within major cities? Compulsory for commuters, and people who simply *work* (not live) in Cities. Cars could be reserved for travel outside of cities, again massively reducing fossil fuel consumption. Its a shame most businessmen and workers will not be willing to part with the confort of their own cars. Lazy bastards.
70 miles on a single charge. Yeah. I've heard stuff like that. It's a scam. I've heard stuff like 250 miles on a single charge. That's not reality, though. What makes a car a car is the combination of range + speed. Electric car promoters always cite top speed and maximum range, giving people the wrong impression that electric cars can pretty much compete with internal combustion engines. Again: it's a scam. The first electric car that will take you 90 miles at 70MPH freeway speeds has still to be invented. Stuff like "this electric car has a range of up to 250 miles" and "this electric car has a top speed of 85MPH" is a blatant lie. If you actually drive that car at 85MPH, you'll be lucky to travel 10 miles before your batteries are flat. If you want to travel 14 miles, most of those electric cars have a top speed of 18MPH. And that's just a sad fact.

Oh, but we'll just add more batteries? Forget it. Even with the newest alternative lightweight batteries, you suffer a weight penalty. More weight means you'll need more energy to move. Adding more batteries results in less range, so basically having more energy will get you less far.

A very meaningful comparison: gasoline stores 20 times the energy per pound than the most efficient batteries.

Change all cars to electric ones and the Olduvai cliff comes in sight: the electric network will not be able to cope with that, resulting in brownouts, temporary blackouts and eventually: permanent blackouts. Woohoo! Alternative energy rocks!

Not.

Also, fossil fuels are not *everything*. I agree that without it life would be near impossible, but your labelling that fossil fuels is in every corner of life is misleading.
No it is not. Look around your house. I guarantee you that everything you see there is there because of fossil fuels. Whether it is in transport or manufacturing, fossil fuels made it possible.

As mentioned before, a water wheel can power a generator which can power a factory which can make clothing.
There are only so many rivers, waterways.

On a larger scale, a Hydroelectric dam can power a city.
You can only build so many dams as there are waterways that lend themselves to be obstructed by a dam.

To put your argument to shame further, that 'Building almost anything requires fossil fuel', as already mentioned, mining doesn't (Except for transport but electricity can power that aswell), do you seriously believe that if humans could erect the fucking pyramid of giza thousands of years ago by hand, and without cranes (modern ones), bulldozers and tractors and FOSSIL FUELS, that we can't erect a windmill/wind farm today?
How long did it take to build the pyramids?
How long do you want to wait for your house or apartment to be build?
Will the workers that build your house agree to live in a workcamp in the immediate neighbourhood of the construction site?
How are you going to erect windmills in the middle of the Northsea or even close to the shore in the sea if you only use manpower?
How will you shape the iron and get the propellor aerodynamically perfect if you can only use your hands and simple tools? How will you make the isolation for the wires? How will you protect the metal you are using to withstand wind and rain and nature? Which biological paint will keep those from doing harm?
And so on.

Think before you write.
 
Change all cars to electric ones and the Olduvai cliff comes in sight: the electric network will not be able to cope with that, resulting in brownouts, temporary blackouts and eventually: permanent blackouts. Woohoo! Alternative energy rocks!

Not.
Won't more nuclear power plants help with this?
 
alec said:
Biodiesel made from foodcrops such as soybeans and sugarcane add to the concerns about rising food prices due to the shifting of crops from food production to energy production. Maybe it's wrong to call that a scam. Let's simply call that 'inhumane'.

Also: 1/3 of Brazil's cars = a fraction of all the cars that roam the Earth.

Alsoplustoo: biodiesel is usually blended with regular gasoline. Most of the time those are 5% blends. The highest recommended blend is 20%. Add more than that and your engine will fail to work eventually. Your garanty does not cover fucking up your engine with crap that has not been approved by the car's manufacturer. The pomo-hippies that retinker your car to run on all sorts of alternative fuels do not tell you this.

Ever hear of a thing called E85? My 'flex fuel' Dodge Caravan, 'flex fuel' Nissan Titan, and 'flex fuel' Honda Accord can all run on it with no damage and no voiding of the warranty. It's not popular here because it is neither widely available nor as energy dense as gasoline, but it does exist and can be used in a large number of foriegn and domestic vehicles in lieu of petroleum.

It's not 'bio diesel', but again, diesel of any kind is simply a long chain hydrocarbon. It may be beyond the home-brew crowd's capacity, but then again, so is cracking your own gasoline. When/if it becomes profitable to produce a refined synthetic petroleum product on a large scale, you will see it being produced. It's not the science, it's the economics.

Blahblahblah e-bikes blahblahblah pyramids and fossil fuel blahblahblah...

Think before you write.

This is an observation I have often had before based on many other forums, both technical and not, regarding similar posting habits. You've been around here five or six years. You've built up something like 8000 posts. Perhaps you are a subject matter expert on a lot of things. Perhaps you are a subject matter expert on this very subject, although based on your posts in this thread, I would gather you are not. Regardless, to dismiss out of hand someone who offers a dissenting opinion is a sign of a weak mind afraid to be challenged.

I am not an economist. I am not a chemist, a petroleum expert, or even a professional prognosticator. I am, however, an electrical engineer. This gives me a familiarity and comfort level on the subjects about which I speak, however, it does not make me believe my opinions are infallible, nor does it make me an expert. I see no signs of your expertise in this thread either. It is a giant game of conjecture. Several people in this thread have refuted your arguments regarding fossil fuel. You have chosen your beliefs, and stick with them with a remarkable tenacity. Don't belittle others who chose not to believe as you do.

Edit: An additional point of fact regarding biofuels and their effects on food prices. In the US, corn is at near record lows right now, and corn-based ethanol/methanol is right there with it. In fact, many producers are going bankrupt, because they bought in at the $6 bubble when they fell into the hype about food vs. fuel. Like the internet, fiberoptics, real estate, and even tulips, all sorts of crazy things happen in the markets that have no relationship to facts or reality.
 
The future = oblivion. The sun explodes. All human art and endeavor, vaporized. What happens between then and now is none of my concern, so long as I die before it happens.
 
Shattering Fast said:
The future = oblivion. The sun explodes. All human art and endeavor, vaporized. What happens between then and now is none of my concern, so long as I die before it happens.
Yeah, those celestial orbs, they sure like to explode. All the time.
 
The sun won't explode, it'll just turn into a red giant and destroy us with it's larger size.

Of course, I'm willing to bet that by then, humanity will most likely be gone.

Either dead or gone to inhabit some other galaxy.
 
generalissimofurioso said:
The sun won't explode, it'll just turn into a red giant and destroy us with it's larger size.

Of course, I'm willing to bet that by then, humanity will most likely be gone.

Either dead or gone to inhabit some other galaxy.
My thinking exactly, though at one point the sun will collapse on itself.
 
generalissimofurioso said:
The sun won't explode, it'll just turn into a red giant and destroy us with it's larger size.

Of course, I'm willing to bet that by then, humanity will most likely be gone.

Either dead or gone to inhabit some other galaxy.
I'm sorry, but stars eventually die. I know it's sad - they're so pretty! - but it's true.
 
alec said:
Biodiesel made from foodcrops such as soybeans and sugarcane add to the concerns about rising food prices due to the shifting of crops from food production to energy production. Maybe it's wrong to call that a scam. Let's simply call that 'inhumane'.

Inhumane as that may be, it is an alternate source of energy nevertheless.

alec said:
Also: 1/3 of Brazil's cars = a fraction of all the cars that roam the Earth.

True, but if one country can get so many of those types of cars on the road I see no reason other countries cannot follow suit. Especially when we begin to get really hard pressed on gasoline.

alec said:
Alsoplustoo: biodiesel is usually blended with regular gasoline. Most of the time those are 5% blends. The highest recommended blend is 20%. Add more than that and your engine will fail to work eventually. Your garanty does not cover fucking up your engine with crap that has not been approved by the car's manufacturer. The pomo-hippies that retinker your car to run on all sorts of alternative fuels do not tell you this.

There are some mixtures that involve only alcohol, common cooking oil, soda and something else (but definitely not petrol - i'll look into it). Also, its a lot easier to get car engines to adapt to run on these mixtures than it will ever be to find alternate sources or more oil, so the biggest problem is already out of the way


alec said:
70 miles on a single charge. Yeah. I've heard stuff like that. It's a scam. I've heard stuff like 250 miles on a single charge. That's not reality, though. What makes a car a car is the combination of range + speed. Electric car promoters always cite top speed and maximum range, giving people the wrong impression that electric cars can pretty much compete with internal combustion engines. Again: it's a scam. The first electric car that will take you 90 miles at 70MPH freeway speeds has still to be invented. Stuff like "this electric car has a range of up to 250 miles" and "this electric car has a top speed of 85MPH" is a blatant lie. If you actually drive that car at 85MPH, you'll be lucky to travel 10 miles before your batteries are flat. If you want to travel 14 miles, most of those electric cars have a top speed of 18MPH. And that's just a sad fact.

But still you are missing the point. It will obviously not be long before that technology is improved, the simple fact it exists and is being applied to automobiles is good news. Also, I would like to know where you are getting these 'facts' from? I would not mind putting your argument to test some day of these and seeing how far my e-bike goes. Im thinking of travelling around anyway.

alec said:
Change all cars to electric ones and the Olduvai cliff comes in sight: the electric network will not be able to cope with that, resulting in brownouts, temporary blackouts and eventually: permanent blackouts. Woohoo! Alternative energy rocks!

Not.

Not really. THat argument can also be applied to any power-hungry appliance. All we do is expand the grid. With todays reliance on electricity I am yet to witness a permanent blackout.

alec said:
You can only build so many dams as there are waterways that lend themselves to be obstructed by a dam.

Power plants are the way to go :)

alec said:
How long did it take to build the pyramids?
How long do you want to wait for your house or apartment to be build?

Funny, before the discovery of petroleum people still built houses and apartments in a reasonable speed. Sure, fossil fuels make it easier, but are not a pre-requisite. And as already mentioned, there are alternative sources to power those engines, even if you don't believe that.

alec said:
Will the workers that build your house agree to live in a workcamp in the immediate neighbourhood of the construction site?
How are you going to erect windmills in the middle of the Northsea or even close to the shore in the sea if you only use manpower?
How will you shape the iron and get the propellor aerodynamically perfect if you can only use your hands and simple tools? How will you make the isolation for the wires? How will you protect the metal you are using to withstand wind and rain and nature? Which biological paint will keep those from doing harm?
And so on.

Think before you write.

You are aware mills do not need to be out at sea necessarily right? And sure, having a high tech windmill is good, but not necessary. An old fashioned one will also work.

JohnnyEgo said:
This is an observation I have often had before based on many other forums, both technical and not, regarding similar posting habits. You've been around here five or six years. You've built up something like 8000 posts. Perhaps you are a subject matter expert on a lot of things. Perhaps you are a subject matter expert on this very subject, although based on your posts in this thread, I would gather you are not. Regardless, to dismiss out of hand someone who offers a dissenting opinion is a sign of a weak mind afraid to be challenged.

I am not an economist. I am not a chemist, a petroleum expert, or even a professional prognosticator. I am, however, an electrical engineer. This gives me a familiarity and comfort level on the subjects about which I speak, however, it does not make me believe my opinions are infallible, nor does it make me an expert. I see no signs of your expertise in this thread either. It is a giant game of conjecture. Several people in this thread have refuted your arguments regarding fossil fuel. You have chosen your beliefs, and stick with them with a remarkable tenacity. Don't belittle others who chose not to believe as you do.

Indeed.
 
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