The Positive Thread
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sickfuck_diablo
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I don't agree. It might be Fallout in 'title' or 'publishing rights' for however much the liscense cost, but it is essentially NOT the same development team, not the same programmers/ art directors, writers, and so on. I view it as an entirely different product, well, almost like what a fanfic is to a movie. And even in the old (the REAL) Fallout, the inclusion of such options seem like such a minor thing that it really doesnt affect any aspect of the game as a whole. So include it or not, it doesnt matter to me is all I'm saying. So if it's not included, I don't see it being a big deal, or even a censorship issue.
You seem to be missing my point here. All I meant was issues of "morality" arent black and white. There is no universally agreed upon RIGHT and WRONG, and these things dont fall into the same category, even within themselves. i.e; Drugs can have medicinal purposes, yet you can still be addicted to them. You can sell them to someone without the intent to harm them and end up serving a life sentance for attempted murder. The argument of self-defense in killing someone else, ritualistic cannibalism, assisted suicide, abortion.. these are all grey areas and impossible to group into such broad generalizations.
So when you argue... "killing plants vs. killing children, if you disagree, dont buy the game" has no relevance in this argument to me,( besides yeah, don't support a product you have problems with.) I want the right to have an abortion but I don't think I have the right to enter someones home and cut their throats. (But then again arguing about real life is retarded, we're talking about a MFin video game here.)
of course not. I'm just saying...comparitively speaking... the older format of the game was significantly less detailed. You have a detached, omniscient perspective. The NPCs you blow away are a few pixels about an inch big on screen. I guess the FPS perspective isn't such a big deal to alot of people used to looking an enemy target in the face before blowing them away, but atleast for me, I see it as a more disturbing, personal kind of exchange.
I don't understand this 'set of ethics' that designates drug using, whoring, killing, stealing, cursing, etc... as part of the same line. Everything has it's own weight. I dont mean this to prove a point but a genuine question: Why shouldn't there be raping, or brahma fucking either? I mean, realistically, in such a chaotic setting, there would be a lot of rape going on.
I definatley agree with you.
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Sorrow said:
I think the ability to kill innocents (as well as plot-critical NPCs) is what makes Fallout so realistic. I think killing innocent people IRL is wrong and despicable. What about James Patterson's Alex Cross series of novels? Bad shit happens to innocent women and children all the time in those books, and there's no content rating on them. (How is it that you can read about a gruesome murder in a newspaper or fiction story but any audio or video that describes or depicts an equally gruesome murder falls under censorship?) I like to think that media--video games included--provides a "what-if?" scenario for its intended audio. In the case of BG2, it asks not only "what if I was the son/daughter of an evil god?" but "what would happen if I gave in to the evil half of my soul, given to me by my godly evil father?" A byproduct of ultimate evil, unfortunately, means killing off the good and the righteous.
Grey_Wolf said:
To paraphrase the guide of wonder, FO2 believes that using the Sierra Army Depot brain extractor on an NPC is a worse deed than killing a child. Several folks, including the best NPCs, won't give the PC the time of day if he/she is a child killer. I'm flipping through GameInformer's FO3 splash article and the plot tidbits make it quite clear that the PC has a few options solving a quest in Megaton and picks one of the not-so-pleasant solutions, i.e. blowing the atomic bomb that gives the town its name. So, you CAN be a dick, and you can be a dick to innocents. Maybe not graphically, but still.
In Greek theater, most violent acts happened offstage, and the murderer or whoever would come back onstage, covered in god-only-knows-what, describing what happened and their feelings about it. The ancient Greeks believed that the imagination could create better special effects than any a theater could produce. Compare this to the Romans, who would murder people onstage (prisoners and the like) to add to realism. One play featured a man trapped inside a burning house!
I doubt Bethesda can pull this off, but I'd like an FO3 that can sicken me over a foul murder never shown, entice me with a character's flirtations without depicting flap A into slot B, and give me a sense of pride without displaying my accomplishments in full grandeur. I enjoy games that require intuitive thinking. That's FO1 and 2 right there. FO3 has a few sparks, mostly in its plot trees, bare as they are.
sickfuck_diablo said:
You were able to rape a woman in Fallout 2. At least, force her to have sex with you for freeing her husband. At any rate, in a game where killing living beings is nothing special, why should children have some special invulnerability? Because it's disturbing to kill one? Child or adult, either way, that's a life taken.
It's not about any set of ethics at all, it's about broadening (or rather, not limiting) a player's ability to role-play. And yes, being able to kill a child can be part of it. A small part, but still, it should be there. More so in a game that aspires to become immersive, open-ended and free-style as it's possible.
Silveressa
First time out of the vault
Well technically FO 1&2 always faded to black when any sexual action occurred, resuming the scene after the "horizontal tango," Which now that I think about it is pretty well how I;d prefer it (seeing 2 inch high sprites trying to mimic sex would either amusing or disturbing, not sure which
)As far as rape goes, I remember rescuing some girls daughter in FO 2 that was raped by bandits and kicked some of them in the groin?
But open ended actions aside, I seriously doubt if they go with a 99% spoken diolague like they did with Elder Scrolls Oblivion they'll have even 1% of the language we all knew and loved in the FO series. (Imagine playing FO 2 in reno in power armor and as your significant other, (or children if you have any) walks past the room IRL hearing a prostitute say "So is that suit like some kinda giant electronic dildo?)"
(not to mention if the npc's repeat themselves as often as they do in elder scrolls oblivion they'd darned well better be killable so I can finally shut them the hell up. 
)Highly unlikely bethesda will release a game this day and age where such phrases are spoken out loud. Which is a real shame as it adds to the atmosphere and over all "fun" that is fall out. (then again I may be wrong about the diolauge, which I hope I am.)
FO's never pulled any punches, putting on the kid gloves for #3 should definitely earn it a title like FO 3 "lite" or Fall Out Teen Edition.
Sorrow
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Now, that's the most moronic argument for censorship. Killable children isn't a game feature. Killable non-hostile characters are.sickfuck_diablo said:
Also, a special invulnerability for a certain type of creature is a special feature.
As for raping - one argument - it would need a lot of work and developers can't even implement consequences of stealing right.
Where?Madbringer said:
Sorrow said:
The girl in Vault City's courtyard. Her husband was made a servant, and she asks you to do something about it. If memory serves me right, sticking it into her was one of the methods of "payment" PC could suggest.
Now, it isn't the same as jumping a girl in some dark alley, but it definitely isn't fully willful, either.
sickfuck_diablo said:
it's the whole purpose of fallout. To give you many choices, and to let YOU PICK whether you are good or bad.
If you don't like child killing (which you said you laughed as you did so, so i'm guessing you like it), then DON'T DO IT! It's not like this is going to be a MMORPG. That'd be stupid (for now).
So why should you cut every one else's options by creating sets of immortals that never die, and *shrugs* hell, if they don't die, i'm using them as a bullet shield. What kinda realism is that?
sickfuck_diablo said:
I'm not saying there is. You are saying there is.
Quit trying to limit people's option in life (cause if they ban "violence in video games" they're ALL going down), and in this "future" game.
And whats this BS about abortion? it's still living tissue, and will "GROW" into a human.
So why are you talking about child killing as a bad thing?
You basically said that you just wanted to kill your unborn children?
I think to them the womb "is" their home, and you JUST SAID you want to rush into it's home and slit it's throat.
And if you don't see it as being such a big deal, then it should be no big deal to "not play Fallout" at all. Or buy some other game, and paste a "Fallout 3" sticker onto it.sickfuck_diablo said:
Cause that is basically all your "it may be Fallout in title" argument is.
Just get a copy of DOOM 3 or something, and print out a little sticker that says "Fallout 3" and paste it on it. Then everyone is happy.
You get your game that doesn't stick true to Fallout's Original style, and I don't have to have a box of dung, with fancy Fallout 3 wrapping paper.
Pirengle said:
So what you are saying is that you want a game where every time you "attack" some one, the screen goes black and you wake up to see the enemy has disappeared.... Man that is going to be a lame game... How are you supposed to even Fight ANY thing?? :shocked:
LoL! I think all you people were coddled as children.
You do know, that instead of buying a game that HAS these characteristics and trying to "Change" them, to your ways.
You could just boycott and "Not Buy It."
Makes a lot more sense.
OR!
if you are just dead set on it, buy the game and turn off all the "gore," and swear on your souls that if you truly believe in all of this nonsense, that you will never play with the gore mode on, or attack any living creature
Wow.... This is just nuts. *sigh*
LoL!Sorrow said:
you JUST contradicted yourself man! So a "special invulnerability" for a certain type of creature (a Child) IS a special feature! lol
Awesome! That was the easiest one thus far!
You so crazy ^^ lol
sickfuck_diablo
It Wandered In From the Wastes
I'm not even going to warrant this with a response
on 'good and evil being black and white':
That right there is a perfect example of generalizing two completely different situations (with the same results) to point where it makes no sense. Without divuldging into an abortion debate (because there is really no point than arguing with a pro-life christian fundamentalist MALE)... in regard to "commiting crimes" I personally believe true motive defines character. You cant define such broad actions as black and white. You can only gauge individual cases. Why else does our justace system include a fair trial. Not every murder gets the same sentance. Unless you speak from the hegemonic view of a white, priviledged male, then yes, everything probably is black and white to you.
So you are telling me, that because I don't care whether or not something is included in a game, after I stated I'm buying it anyway, that I shouln't buy it. So actually, you are trying to censor what I buy and/or see.
Does the name of a brand really have that much power over you?
etc.etc...
Wait a minute, how old are you? No wonder you don't seem to understand or address what I'm saying. LOLZZ!jk kbye.
I'm not arguing for censorship there. I'm making a statement about one's perception of morality.
How much work would it need? Beat someone up enough to immobilize them, or better yet, use the V.A.T.S system to target their legs. Get over them, chose a command... fade to black, roll 5-10 minutes off the clock and leave the unconcious or dead body on the ground. Realistically, unless the target had a gang/tribe or family, there would probably be no NPC backlash. A a brahmin probably wouldnt care either way.
sickfuck_diablo said:
You do realize that saying "you are not going to respond" is a response in itself? lol sickfuck_diablo said:
Goody! We're playing the Pigeon hole game!
lol, So let me do you! you are a "Pro-Death, Coat Hanger Wielding, Comi-Racist, with bouts of extreme closed mindedness, have a "it's gotta be MY way or no way" Princess complex, penis envy, and are a self denying-Megalomaniac!"lol, I would go further in depth, but reading what you have said 2 times, has given me fits of laughter to the point of hurling
lolAnd btw, i'm not Christian
and i "could" be pro-death too, but i'd want double and triple digit trimesters to be included in the action ^^sickfuck_diablo said:
I'm not doing anything! You are the one trying to come into a place and demand that it changes.
Lets say you have a band. And i walk in and say, well I don't like these and these lyrics. You should change them, because i will be buying a CD in a future time..
When you say that "it's my band" and i'm not going to change! I would respond,
Well it doesn't matter, it's Just a name. Now you should change those lyrics, because i will be buying a CD in a future time.
You would say no, just don't buy our music then, and i would respond,
LOL! I love it when i can make an example that is apt ^^
LoL, no, i talk like this because i am a naturally happy person!sickfuck_diablo said:
or... Are you trying to dictate to me how i should feel? Taking away my rights???? 
Quit trying to march in and toss your Nazi law around.sickfuck_diablo said:
Let people make their OWN moral choices. Thats the joy of Freedom! sickfuck_diablo
It Wandered In From the Wastes
Well since you reverted to name calling, I will too... I mean this in the nicest way possible... You're an effin retard! Learn how to read!
I never once stated what they should or should not put into a game. I never made any demand for something to change. Every statement I made that was pure opinion, I made a disclaimer.
Blow me, you insurgent. No rights for anyone.
I never once stated what they should or should not put into a game. I never made any demand for something to change. Every statement I made that was pure opinion, I made a disclaimer.
Blow me, you insurgent.
No rights for anyone.*sigh* You started it first when you realized your lack of a real argument and went to personal attacks.
And yes, you did, you even went so far as to say that the reason you wanted certain sections out, and why i shouldn't be upset that some one was adulterating FO.
Either way, you've stopped (and denied you've ever done) both. So i really have no further arguments to put forward.
And yes, you did, you even went so far as to say that the reason you wanted certain sections out, and why i shouldn't be upset that some one was adulterating FO.
Either way, you've stopped (and denied you've ever done) both. So i really have no further arguments to put forward.
Cut it out, people. Either start arguing an actual point, or stop posting. That goes especially gor you, Grey Wolf, since you have the tendency to try to extrapolate some fictional position from a person's statement and then attack that position, instead of talking about the statement itself.
*rolls eyes* none of the positions i found were fictional(and can back that up if you give me some examples of your statement but lets do that in a PM, so we don't keep crowding this forum topic). I just tend to go off into tangents after explaining something in-depth, opening whole new avenues of discussion
But i do agree that this thread has gone WAY off topic of all the "positives" of F3.
Hmm... lets see. It'll be out next year, so we can stop arguing about it!
Or I wonder if there will be NPCs that you can recruit into your party. That would be interesting
but lets do that in a PM, so we don't keep crowding this forum topic). I just tend to go off into tangents after explaining something in-depth, opening whole new avenues of discussion But i do agree that this thread has gone WAY off topic of all the "positives" of F3.
Hmm... lets see. It'll be out next year, so we can stop arguing about it!
Or I wonder if there will be NPCs that you can recruit into your party. That would be interesting
knightablaze
First time out of the vault
I say Wolf and SickFuck be banned from the Positive Topic. I mean, come on! It's the fucking POSITIVE TOPIC! And all they can do is call names! ARgghh!
Anways...ahem...I would like to submit the one positive thing I see in the upcoming Fallout.
It looks good and it's neatly rendered in 3D. (Of course, I suppose almost all games coming out are like that, but I thought I'd try!)
Anways...ahem...I would like to submit the one positive thing I see in the upcoming Fallout.
It looks good and it's neatly rendered in 3D. (Of course, I suppose almost all games coming out are like that, but I thought I'd try!)
Nology5890
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
I'm digging how the Vault looks on the inside (in my opinion). And, I like that there is a nuke in the game (but it should be used in a different situation, such as the 'dark irony'-styled use of nukes in past FO's I've been hearing about lots recently).
I was not talking about my statements in particular, I was talking about a lot of different statements you do twist around. You twist 'Hey, we don't need to see everything in the game' to 'Hey, we don't need to see anything', and there are a ton of other examples around.Grey_Wolf said:
Also, you're both missing the point of killable children. It isn't in there to emphasise gore or moral ambiguity, it's in there simply because children are in there. It makes no sense to be able to attack everything in the game, but not children because those are 'special'.
When you're then extrapolating that to rape or something similar, you're missing the point since rape is not implemented and serves no practical function in the game other than 'Oooh, look at me, I'm so eeeeeevil'.
Silveressa
First time out of the vault
On a positive note I'm hoping they'll be able to pack even more "game" into FO 3 than We've seen in the previous FO's given the large size they can make this.
By more "game", let me clarify; FO 1 & 2 felt simply huge, in that the world, and sheer amount of dpeth the towns had. Comparted to other games of their time the npc's, locations, etc.. had more of a "living feel" than games like Septrerra Core.
I especially loved how your actions could change the entire place in sublte (blowing away tubby in the den) or major (detonating an out house) ways. I made you feel that for once you had control of your chars actions and the world changed to adapt to the influence you exerted on it.
Now with more modern design and the increase of storage space possible in 2-3 dvds (compared to one lone cd) I have high hopes we'll see even more "living breathing" towns so to speak.
If they happen to add in destroyable envrioments as well it'll be definately something special. I'm also hoping they take a large scale aqpproach (like how big worlds are in mmorpgs or the original elder scrolls) compared to the "mini sphere" approach they took with Oblivion, where I felt as if the "world" was little more than 4 towns and a city.
With any luck it'll turn into something similar, and possibly even better, than the way S.T.A.L.K.E.R was done. (different company i knopw, but it's pretty much the closest to a fallout themed fps/rpg I've ever seen.)
By more "game", let me clarify; FO 1 & 2 felt simply huge, in that the world, and sheer amount of dpeth the towns had. Comparted to other games of their time the npc's, locations, etc.. had more of a "living feel" than games like Septrerra Core.
I especially loved how your actions could change the entire place in sublte (blowing away tubby in the den) or major (detonating an out house) ways. I made you feel that for once you had control of your chars actions and the world changed to adapt to the influence you exerted on it.
Now with more modern design and the increase of storage space possible in 2-3 dvds (compared to one lone cd) I have high hopes we'll see even more "living breathing" towns so to speak.
If they happen to add in destroyable envrioments as well it'll be definately something special. I'm also hoping they take a large scale aqpproach (like how big worlds are in mmorpgs or the original elder scrolls) compared to the "mini sphere" approach they took with Oblivion, where I felt as if the "world" was little more than 4 towns and a city.
With any luck it'll turn into something similar, and possibly even better, than the way S.T.A.L.K.E.R was done. (different company i knopw, but it's pretty much the closest to a fallout themed fps/rpg I've ever seen.)
quietfanatic
Ancient One
Perlman, and likely attempts at S.P.E.C.I.A.L., dialogue trees, consequences, less NPC's, graphically detailed world, exploration, some good music, revisiting setting and atmosphere, such as humour. Sadly they seem to be terribly flawed and every feature has been badly implemented from what we've seen so far, so probably failed attempts.
Although graphics looks like they will be the least flawed, it seems like it is eating up a lot of resources which should be spent on more important features (not to mention the connection to nerfed combat or ISO/TB).
Although graphics looks like they will be the least flawed, it seems like it is eating up a lot of resources which should be spent on more important features (not to mention the connection to nerfed combat or ISO/TB).