Damnit, don't encourage him, G-Bus!
The problem with China
- Thread starter welsh
- Start date
welsh
Junkmaster
Pennyliu, I wish I shared your confidence.
It's understandable that you are taking a defensive position with regard to your country. But there is nothing that says you can't love your country and still be critical of it. Love of country doesn't mean you need to ignore the problems. Perhaps it is only through understanding ones problems that one learns how to improve and make things better.
Which returns us to the point. The problem in China is a question of transparency, or lack of that. Fair enough that we currently have the same problem in the US because of the current administration and a complacent press. Yet the press is not controlled in the US, and while the government may watch the internet it also doesn't filter it. There is a Freedom of Information Act that allows individuals to gain information, and in the end politicans can be held accountable. This doesn't deny the many problems that exist in the US. But having transparency allows one to see those problems and hopefully do something about it.
In China you don't have that. Rather you have the Communist Party threatening Falun Gong because that whacky religion can organize people more effectively than the Party can.
You are right, things are improving. But they are also improving in part because China has received a lot of investment from abroad, while State Owned Industries try to transition. China's advantage is in part a matter of "economies of scale" and with that it may become a powerful industrialized country. Nothing wrong with that. US industrialization was partially funded by European capital, and England is still one of the major investors in the US.
But then the UK also invested heavily in Latin America, and in those countries you had significant economic development into the 1950s and 60s.
Then came the problems. Poorer classes wanted more share of the wealth. Rich classes wanted more insulation. Because rich classes also had more influence in the state and military, they could respond to the rise of political power among poor classes with military repression and the creation of authoriatrian/corporatist states. Those states sought to protect their economies through Import Substitution programs and state planning, leading to further division among class boundaries but also inefficient economic systems- leading to borrowing, leading to debt crisis, leading to another wave of political transitions.
Note authoritarian capitalist states dominanted by strong elitist parties that create corporatist states. The strongmen of Latin America look a lot like the strongmen of Europe. Could it happen in China?
China could seek to reduce social disharmony by focusing attention through nationalistic causes- such as the recapture of Taiwan. This is not unique to China. A common argument is that countries in domestic economic trouble use external adventures as a form of social distraction during periods of transition. If it's true elsewhere, it could be true for China.
Don't get me wrong- I don't think China is a bad place. Hell I spent much of my college studying China and have been there (and had a good time).
We spend plenty of time discussing the problems with our own countries. If you spend enough time here or look through the archives, you can see that.
Does China have problems- yes. Are they worth discussing- of course. The Chinese share the world with everyone else- so get used to criticism.
Free speech is one of the regular joys of democracy, but no one says free speech isn't offensive.
While China may be getting better, the question is whether China is also becoming more responsible and a better participant in the world. When China was under Mao, it had problems and occassionally caused problems in the rest of the world, but your internal problems were primarily your own concern. In a globalized economy in which China is a central player, your internal problems can cause problems elsewhere. Acknowledging this is part of being responsible.
The question is also what will happen when China is doing less well and people's expectations of a better life is denied. This challenge, what to do when things get hard, is something all countries face. Considering how China handles its problems during these "good times" leaves much to be desired. How China will handle "bad times" is worrisome.
As for the student- a child of Communst Party members and theoretically among the best and brightest your country can offer, he sent me a message begging and pleading not to fail him. (Lucky for him, it's Christmas and I feel charitable).
It's understandable that you are taking a defensive position with regard to your country. But there is nothing that says you can't love your country and still be critical of it. Love of country doesn't mean you need to ignore the problems. Perhaps it is only through understanding ones problems that one learns how to improve and make things better.
Which returns us to the point. The problem in China is a question of transparency, or lack of that. Fair enough that we currently have the same problem in the US because of the current administration and a complacent press. Yet the press is not controlled in the US, and while the government may watch the internet it also doesn't filter it. There is a Freedom of Information Act that allows individuals to gain information, and in the end politicans can be held accountable. This doesn't deny the many problems that exist in the US. But having transparency allows one to see those problems and hopefully do something about it.
In China you don't have that. Rather you have the Communist Party threatening Falun Gong because that whacky religion can organize people more effectively than the Party can.
You are right, things are improving. But they are also improving in part because China has received a lot of investment from abroad, while State Owned Industries try to transition. China's advantage is in part a matter of "economies of scale" and with that it may become a powerful industrialized country. Nothing wrong with that. US industrialization was partially funded by European capital, and England is still one of the major investors in the US.
But then the UK also invested heavily in Latin America, and in those countries you had significant economic development into the 1950s and 60s.
Then came the problems. Poorer classes wanted more share of the wealth. Rich classes wanted more insulation. Because rich classes also had more influence in the state and military, they could respond to the rise of political power among poor classes with military repression and the creation of authoriatrian/corporatist states. Those states sought to protect their economies through Import Substitution programs and state planning, leading to further division among class boundaries but also inefficient economic systems- leading to borrowing, leading to debt crisis, leading to another wave of political transitions.
Note authoritarian capitalist states dominanted by strong elitist parties that create corporatist states. The strongmen of Latin America look a lot like the strongmen of Europe. Could it happen in China?
China could seek to reduce social disharmony by focusing attention through nationalistic causes- such as the recapture of Taiwan. This is not unique to China. A common argument is that countries in domestic economic trouble use external adventures as a form of social distraction during periods of transition. If it's true elsewhere, it could be true for China.
Don't get me wrong- I don't think China is a bad place. Hell I spent much of my college studying China and have been there (and had a good time).
We spend plenty of time discussing the problems with our own countries. If you spend enough time here or look through the archives, you can see that.
Does China have problems- yes. Are they worth discussing- of course. The Chinese share the world with everyone else- so get used to criticism.
Free speech is one of the regular joys of democracy, but no one says free speech isn't offensive.
While China may be getting better, the question is whether China is also becoming more responsible and a better participant in the world. When China was under Mao, it had problems and occassionally caused problems in the rest of the world, but your internal problems were primarily your own concern. In a globalized economy in which China is a central player, your internal problems can cause problems elsewhere. Acknowledging this is part of being responsible.
The question is also what will happen when China is doing less well and people's expectations of a better life is denied. This challenge, what to do when things get hard, is something all countries face. Considering how China handles its problems during these "good times" leaves much to be desired. How China will handle "bad times" is worrisome.
As for the student- a child of Communst Party members and theoretically among the best and brightest your country can offer, he sent me a message begging and pleading not to fail him. (Lucky for him, it's Christmas and I feel charitable).
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Essentially everything Deng Xiaoping did only without the forced abortions, repression of Religion and brutal repression of dissent.
And kill Mao.
I agree with you.
Your argument is founded upon misconceptions. The Nazi economy's foundation was about as stable as a 15th Century castle built upon a shantytown. Ever heard of mefo bills?
If the Nazis had not gone to war, their economy would have failed, and failed worse, then that of the pathetic Weimar. The Nazis detested international trade (Nazi international trade 1933-1939 was 1/3 of Weimar in 1929), spent way too much of their GDP into gearing up for a war THEY made and without Albert Speer in 1942 the war would have been over within months of Stalingrad due to the utterly mismanaged state of the economy.
You loose.
Deng Xiaoping was not a Communist in the Marxist-Lenninist-Maoist sense when he was in power. No way in hell.
And Communism created two problems for every problem that it solved. It unified China, but it also detroyed native cultures everywhere. It brought some sense of stability from extrenal and seccesionist threats, but almost crumbeled under the burden of it's own ideological insanity and hatred. Not to mention Mao's impact upon the massive population boom, the fact that he was probably the worst economsit of all time, and that he was an utter deviant and pervert who burns in the lowest level of hell.
pennyliu123
Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?
welsh said:
Ahem, I believe that no country want to have a "religion" like falun gong, and I know, falun gong is more like a political organization which keep on preaching to pull down the government now, so it is dangerous indeed. I do admit the fact that the government played too fussy and has overblamed too many people to perish falun gong, but it is necessary for the stabilization of the society.
Yeah, possibly. But Taiwan problem has last out for so many years, and the mainland always insist that Taiwan is a part or China, every time when the "government" in Taiwan want to declare that Taiwan is a independent country, the government in mainland will threaten or do some thing, even when there is no particular problem in mainland. And, as you know, many people in China do not care so much about the problem in the country like people in US do, so it is not an effective way to make "social distraction", if many workers lose their job, they will surely go out on the street to claim for that, even if the mainland is really fighting Taiwan.
Yeah, if I could see any words like that in your first thread, I won't say too much here. But I didn't, so I think your opinion is one-sided, you only point out the problem. I believe that few people here will spend their time to do some research work on China, they read your article, and they may draw the conclusion that China is a bad place, though you don't hope so.
Ok, I don't really want you to flunk him, but I hope you may let him know, as a Chinese who went abroad, he should let more people know about China, but not only the flaws.
And, I know most young students who went abroad have a high level of English, and that is crucial, but they may not have such a level of the understanding of his country, so I think he should write a paper on Chinese culture to prove so
At last, I never refuse the fact that there are so many problems in China, I just want you to give it more time, and I have the confidence that China will get better and better.
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
Zombie with a political agenda alert!
LOL
Anyway, moving on. I wrote this mostly as a response to welsh.
------
China, oh China.
The problem with China isn’t its problems. The problem with China is how everyone views their problems, including the Chinese themselves. After living China for 1 1/2 years, I have found that the biggest obstacles that blocks most people from “understanding” China is prejudice of one form or another. And that, includes many Chinese people’s own prejudice against each other.
Le me simplify what is happening in China right now into some basic terms. Condense the last 200 yrs of Western industrialization, innovation, and economical, civil, legal and other reforms into 30 years, times that amount by the 1.3 billion people population, then you might have a picture.
A famous Sinologist once said, China is both the largest start up and the largest turn around project at the same time. And it’s the largest of anything in human history. Picture this, during the annual Lunar New Years Holiday, at least 1/5 of its population will attempt to go back to their ancestral home. And more than 1 million (or more) people will go through the Beijing Capitol Airport everyday during that time. Can any of the transportation structures in the world survive that kind of abuse, year after year? All of this does not include the October Golden Week holiday and everyday regular traffic. I don’t know, since I don’t study this issue far enough to give creditable views.
And as if just to add oil to fire, China is actually an incredibly diverse country. China has 56 officially recognized minority groups. As if that’s not enough, due to its 5000 years (4990 at last count I believe) of history, every major city worth its salt in China is a tribe of sorts. They all have their own culture, language, eating habits, ways of doing business, fashion, and enough differences to call themselves city states. And from the looks of things, local governments have quite a lot of power in China like the old Mandarins. As long as you don’t screw up anything big, and you upheld the party’s ideals at the right times, there aren’t that much oversight from the central government (since lots of them are worried about their own future than you). And the central government doesn’t really need to supervise too much. 1.3 billion people create a lot of competition for the top jobs. If you did something really stupid, someone somewhere will make sure you are replaced. An ingenious method of oversight, really, and it has a long history in the Chinese culture.
Let me get back to the matter at hand. Chinese people does not like to take responsibility for anything. (Who does? Just look at the Canada’s last water pollution disaster recently.) Call it a combination of a shame based society and the CP’s ideal of sharing everything. China has layers and layers of bureaucracy to deal with various forms of decision making, just so they can diffuse any responsibility from any single decision maker.
There is an on going joke in China concerning why the Chinese prefer seals/stamps over signatures. They say that’s because – in case they have to stamp any official seal on any legal document, they can shake their hands at the last second before the ink touches the paper, therefore smudges the ink a bit. If they can smudge it just enough so that the date/name of person/ name of agency is barely unrecognizable, then they have done a day’s work. They’ve just avoided another responsibility concerning another decision, fact, data, analysis and etc. It’s quite an art form in China, and it’s quite amusing to hear some swap tips and techniques on this.
As for why China doesn’t like to apologize? ROFL
How many governments have you met that likes to do that? Soft wood? Iraq war? Drug war?
It’s easier to procrastinate. It’s easier to leave things the way they are. Reform requires effort and work, and it also shakes some of the families that used to enjoy exclusive privileges to share it.
The only group think or common ground that the Chinese people have is the Confucius doctrine. There are some wonderful points to this concept, but it’s inherently flawed as pointed out by the less popular Lao Tzu. The Confucius doctrine is adapted and loved by a lot of Emperors because it’s an effective and efficient system of control. CP reinforced some of this ideal to the extreme and abandoned some other stuff in it. The Chinese people are incredibly resistant to change if nothing else. But the CR in the 1960s created an empty space in the linkage of history for the Chinese people. Chinese people’s emotional attachment to their roots and families is an survival instinct passed down from the generations past as means of survival through the cyclical nature of Chinese politics. Chinese people usually try to make sure that their families survive through the times no matter who (which emperor) is power. The “wall grass” mentality is fairly apparent in a lot of Chinese people. (wall grass = a grass on the top of the fence, will bow to whichever side of the fence that the wind is blowing)
But CR changed a lot of things for people. The ethics and morals that used to bind some in place disappeared. The intellectual class that used to enforce the codes of conduct got stricken down. So what do we have now? After China opens its doors not so long ago, western ideals came flooding in, and at the same time the government is trying to reinforce the old Confucian ideals in order to obtain the soft control it used to enjoy during the Dynasties era. All the while, the Chinese people that fled during the 50s and 60s came home, brining back a fusion of old Chinese ideals with a blend of modern western ideals. The result? Pure chaos. The current Chinese system is a SAC. Stand Alone Complex. The Chinese government loves to plan, but almost all plans involving anything in China on the grand scale runs amok after a while. The central government can pass most laws without anybody fearing enforcement. The system of bureaucracy (that is the real power in China) has always protected itself from outside interference. The biggest things disrupting this system is the market forces and education. Consumer protection and consumer’s right to know might eventually place enough pressure in the establishment for reform and change. Access to information, and the desire to protect their investments have forced some fast reforms in the current real estate market. The pressure for the government to take more responsibilities will increase as its people invest more tax in them. If the current government is seen as having lost the “Mandate of Heaven” to rule, then the Chinese citizens will no longer tremble and obey. How long can the current government contain the peasant population’s discontent while those in power quietly enrich themselves? That would be an interesting thing to watch. But of course, not before everyone and their uncle making a buck first. That includes me. 8)
Basic facts about China –
Everything involves politics. When there is no law concerning whether you can or can not do something in China, then you can’t do it. In China, you WANT laws governing what you do to pass. You also want the laws to state explicitly who is suppose to do what in what particular situation. When there isn’t, they can interpret the law as that particular official sees fitting his/her interest.
Doing business in China is like an art form. But all arts are Martial in China. Your regulator is often your competitor, and he/she isn’t, he/she is probably in cahoots with your competitor. Some call it conflict of interest; the Chinese call it an advantage. The field I am in now is probably one of the best examples of this. Almost all the public biddings involving hospitals acquiring medical equipment/supplies are rigged. Most of the time, the outcome is assured before the first bid is even submitted. On the odd chance that your product is just so outrageously cheaper and better than your rigged competitor, you will win. It’s not impossible do this, but this is economical suicide for most small to medium companies who doesn’t have the marketing budget to burn.
Favourite sayings of Chinese officials/some Chinese people –
You JUST don’t “understand” China.
We are so poor and it’s all your fault.
You need us more than we need you.
China has 1.3 billion people! I am sure somebody will want your product!
Or If just 5% of the population buy your product, you will be RICH!
You have hurt the Chinese people’s feelings!
And one of the old favourite – we hate your competitor, so just give us your X technology and finance this production factory yourself, we will give you this HUGE contract with MORE to come.
I’ll write more, but that’s next post.
LOL
Anyway, moving on. I wrote this mostly as a response to welsh.
------
China, oh China.
The problem with China isn’t its problems. The problem with China is how everyone views their problems, including the Chinese themselves. After living China for 1 1/2 years, I have found that the biggest obstacles that blocks most people from “understanding” China is prejudice of one form or another. And that, includes many Chinese people’s own prejudice against each other.
Le me simplify what is happening in China right now into some basic terms. Condense the last 200 yrs of Western industrialization, innovation, and economical, civil, legal and other reforms into 30 years, times that amount by the 1.3 billion people population, then you might have a picture.
A famous Sinologist once said, China is both the largest start up and the largest turn around project at the same time. And it’s the largest of anything in human history. Picture this, during the annual Lunar New Years Holiday, at least 1/5 of its population will attempt to go back to their ancestral home. And more than 1 million (or more) people will go through the Beijing Capitol Airport everyday during that time. Can any of the transportation structures in the world survive that kind of abuse, year after year? All of this does not include the October Golden Week holiday and everyday regular traffic. I don’t know, since I don’t study this issue far enough to give creditable views.
And as if just to add oil to fire, China is actually an incredibly diverse country. China has 56 officially recognized minority groups. As if that’s not enough, due to its 5000 years (4990 at last count I believe) of history, every major city worth its salt in China is a tribe of sorts. They all have their own culture, language, eating habits, ways of doing business, fashion, and enough differences to call themselves city states. And from the looks of things, local governments have quite a lot of power in China like the old Mandarins. As long as you don’t screw up anything big, and you upheld the party’s ideals at the right times, there aren’t that much oversight from the central government (since lots of them are worried about their own future than you). And the central government doesn’t really need to supervise too much. 1.3 billion people create a lot of competition for the top jobs. If you did something really stupid, someone somewhere will make sure you are replaced. An ingenious method of oversight, really, and it has a long history in the Chinese culture.
Let me get back to the matter at hand. Chinese people does not like to take responsibility for anything. (Who does? Just look at the Canada’s last water pollution disaster recently.) Call it a combination of a shame based society and the CP’s ideal of sharing everything. China has layers and layers of bureaucracy to deal with various forms of decision making, just so they can diffuse any responsibility from any single decision maker.
There is an on going joke in China concerning why the Chinese prefer seals/stamps over signatures. They say that’s because – in case they have to stamp any official seal on any legal document, they can shake their hands at the last second before the ink touches the paper, therefore smudges the ink a bit. If they can smudge it just enough so that the date/name of person/ name of agency is barely unrecognizable, then they have done a day’s work. They’ve just avoided another responsibility concerning another decision, fact, data, analysis and etc. It’s quite an art form in China, and it’s quite amusing to hear some swap tips and techniques on this.
As for why China doesn’t like to apologize? ROFL
How many governments have you met that likes to do that? Soft wood? Iraq war? Drug war?
It’s easier to procrastinate. It’s easier to leave things the way they are. Reform requires effort and work, and it also shakes some of the families that used to enjoy exclusive privileges to share it.
The only group think or common ground that the Chinese people have is the Confucius doctrine. There are some wonderful points to this concept, but it’s inherently flawed as pointed out by the less popular Lao Tzu. The Confucius doctrine is adapted and loved by a lot of Emperors because it’s an effective and efficient system of control. CP reinforced some of this ideal to the extreme and abandoned some other stuff in it. The Chinese people are incredibly resistant to change if nothing else. But the CR in the 1960s created an empty space in the linkage of history for the Chinese people. Chinese people’s emotional attachment to their roots and families is an survival instinct passed down from the generations past as means of survival through the cyclical nature of Chinese politics. Chinese people usually try to make sure that their families survive through the times no matter who (which emperor) is power. The “wall grass” mentality is fairly apparent in a lot of Chinese people. (wall grass = a grass on the top of the fence, will bow to whichever side of the fence that the wind is blowing)
But CR changed a lot of things for people. The ethics and morals that used to bind some in place disappeared. The intellectual class that used to enforce the codes of conduct got stricken down. So what do we have now? After China opens its doors not so long ago, western ideals came flooding in, and at the same time the government is trying to reinforce the old Confucian ideals in order to obtain the soft control it used to enjoy during the Dynasties era. All the while, the Chinese people that fled during the 50s and 60s came home, brining back a fusion of old Chinese ideals with a blend of modern western ideals. The result? Pure chaos. The current Chinese system is a SAC. Stand Alone Complex. The Chinese government loves to plan, but almost all plans involving anything in China on the grand scale runs amok after a while. The central government can pass most laws without anybody fearing enforcement. The system of bureaucracy (that is the real power in China) has always protected itself from outside interference. The biggest things disrupting this system is the market forces and education. Consumer protection and consumer’s right to know might eventually place enough pressure in the establishment for reform and change. Access to information, and the desire to protect their investments have forced some fast reforms in the current real estate market. The pressure for the government to take more responsibilities will increase as its people invest more tax in them. If the current government is seen as having lost the “Mandate of Heaven” to rule, then the Chinese citizens will no longer tremble and obey. How long can the current government contain the peasant population’s discontent while those in power quietly enrich themselves? That would be an interesting thing to watch. But of course, not before everyone and their uncle making a buck first. That includes me. 8)
Basic facts about China –
Everything involves politics. When there is no law concerning whether you can or can not do something in China, then you can’t do it. In China, you WANT laws governing what you do to pass. You also want the laws to state explicitly who is suppose to do what in what particular situation. When there isn’t, they can interpret the law as that particular official sees fitting his/her interest.
Doing business in China is like an art form. But all arts are Martial in China. Your regulator is often your competitor, and he/she isn’t, he/she is probably in cahoots with your competitor. Some call it conflict of interest; the Chinese call it an advantage. The field I am in now is probably one of the best examples of this. Almost all the public biddings involving hospitals acquiring medical equipment/supplies are rigged. Most of the time, the outcome is assured before the first bid is even submitted. On the odd chance that your product is just so outrageously cheaper and better than your rigged competitor, you will win. It’s not impossible do this, but this is economical suicide for most small to medium companies who doesn’t have the marketing budget to burn.
Favourite sayings of Chinese officials/some Chinese people –
You JUST don’t “understand” China.
We are so poor and it’s all your fault.
You need us more than we need you.
China has 1.3 billion people! I am sure somebody will want your product!
Or If just 5% of the population buy your product, you will be RICH!
You have hurt the Chinese people’s feelings!
And one of the old favourite – we hate your competitor, so just give us your X technology and finance this production factory yourself, we will give you this HUGE contract with MORE to come.
I’ll write more, but that’s next post.
welsh
Junkmaster
Starseeker, I was wondering when you would join this thread. (Truth is I started this to see if you were still with us).
Pennyliu- from my understanding the only things that Falun Gong have done that might merit Chinese repression are-
(1) A strange interpretation of Qi-Gong. But most religious ideas are kind of flakey.
(2) that members have committed suicide- a charge that Falun-Gong denies based on a state produced video that suggests that those supposedly burning themselves might be wearing flame resistant gear- in otherwords a poorly done government stunt.
(3) That Falun-Gong members are anti-science (as are most religions) and that its members practice "faith healing." But a lot of religions have a notion of spiritual healing based on faith, and making assumptions about the nature of reality based on faith is inherently anti-science.
(4) That the Falun Gong has managed to organize protests more effectively than the Party has (and might have outnumbered the party by 30 million). That suggests that the real motivation is politics, and the party is fearful of a organized collection of people that are bound by faith and willing to lay down their lives for that faith. Used to be that the CCP had that same ethic (remember the Long March?). Now members of the CCP are trying to make a buck and send their kids to foreign schools to better network into the globalized economy. Maybe the problem with the CCP is exclusion of everyone else and a little too much counter-revolutional bourgeosie ideology?
The argument that repression of a social group is necessary for stability for society is what every repressive authoritarian state (and repressive democratic state) says when it wants to repress. It's always for the "benefit of society." I suggest you question these motives a bit more seriously. Is China fearful of another Taiping Rebellion- and if so is it because of the religious fanaticism or the threat to their political control? Is the answer repression or more openness?
Considering how flakey Falun-Gong is (and believe me, I think it's nutty)- wouldn't China be better off if it allowed its people more religious diversity and freedom?
Since you're fairly new here, I can assume you haven't read past threads (for instance when I argued with John that China is not a serious military threat, and won't be for a few years). But if all you want to hear is praise for China and being Chinese, than this is the wrong place. However, if you want to sing those praises, you could post them.
THe funny thing about having CHinese students is the insight they give you on China. I am also worried about the declining quality of Chinese students. They seem to be very quiet and un-involved in class but very concerned about grades and, sadly, more likely to plagarize than express their own thoughts. Another Chinese student said to me that if China what matters is what your grade is, not how you got it. So if you get good grades but cheat, there is little sanction, at least in the public schools. If this is the nature of the next generation of Chinese, than there is even more to worry about.
Now you may say, "We're making progress" or "Give us more time." But that's getting a bit old. How much progress do you have to make? YOu're already a leading economy. How much time? But more importantly, what have you done to deserve that? Because time and patience are an expense and while the rest of the world has been generous, China has done little to merit that credit.
Ok, you may give us the various excuses Starseeker as provided. But China's growth has come at the expense of the rest of the world, partially because of China's economy of scale. If the rest of the world were to reap those similar benefits, than China might be in trouble. So honestly, I think the West should stop investing in China and start looking at the rest of the developing world, where people could use more economic growth.
And this might be in the West's best interests. Because, based on what Starseeker mentions which I agree with, Chinese business ethics are not healthy for a growing global economy.
@ Starseeker-
Interesting thoughts about the idea of Chinese family survival strategies. I agree with you about the "Mandate from Heaven" and the "Confucian systems of social control." But the family survival system is an interesting thought.
What you mention about the Cultural Revolution is also interesting. I had known that the 1970s and 80s the backlash against the excesses of the CR led to a change in political leadership and direction, but hadn't thought about it in terms of cultural history. Interesting.
But your views on China are mirrored by what my brother has been telling me, as well as others who do business in China, about Chinese ethics. Very chaotic, very competitive and except betrayal.
But that makes me wonder. I have always doubted Weber's Protestant Ethic, but I wonder if the lack of that ethic might harm CHina in the furture.
At the heart of Weber's thesis is the idea that early Calvinists changed their business due to irrational religious ideas. They moved away from a practice of making high profits by ripping off the people they do business with- creating an atmosphere of distrust in business. This notion of "getting the best of the deal" creates extended arms-length agreements and more interest in self-sufficiency.
According to Weber, these Calvinists moved towards more regular and stable business practices in which business people took less profit, but did more honest and fair business with each other. Consequently business people could trust and work with each other more effectively creating stronger commercial and social networks among communities. The idea spread. Today we see variations of that even in the Uniformed Commercial Code where the law will seek to find gaps in contracts to make bargains work.
Like I said, I discount Weber's belief that religion played the roll in changing business practices. As argued elsewhere, you can see variation of this in the Freemasons, and within other communities based on other social ties (for example Jewish communities).
If in China you have a society that distrusts each other, where competition is heady and chaotic, than aren't you creating a problem. TO some extent the CCP might alleviate this by providing a social network of like minded individuals. In that way perhaps that has been the contribution of the CCP to China's expansion.
But if business becomes more competitive and distrust is high, members of the CCP may become more involved in profit that politics, than doesn't that jeopardize China's economy?
Pennyliu- from my understanding the only things that Falun Gong have done that might merit Chinese repression are-
(1) A strange interpretation of Qi-Gong. But most religious ideas are kind of flakey.
(2) that members have committed suicide- a charge that Falun-Gong denies based on a state produced video that suggests that those supposedly burning themselves might be wearing flame resistant gear- in otherwords a poorly done government stunt.
(3) That Falun-Gong members are anti-science (as are most religions) and that its members practice "faith healing." But a lot of religions have a notion of spiritual healing based on faith, and making assumptions about the nature of reality based on faith is inherently anti-science.
(4) That the Falun Gong has managed to organize protests more effectively than the Party has (and might have outnumbered the party by 30 million). That suggests that the real motivation is politics, and the party is fearful of a organized collection of people that are bound by faith and willing to lay down their lives for that faith. Used to be that the CCP had that same ethic (remember the Long March?). Now members of the CCP are trying to make a buck and send their kids to foreign schools to better network into the globalized economy. Maybe the problem with the CCP is exclusion of everyone else and a little too much counter-revolutional bourgeosie ideology?
The argument that repression of a social group is necessary for stability for society is what every repressive authoritarian state (and repressive democratic state) says when it wants to repress. It's always for the "benefit of society." I suggest you question these motives a bit more seriously. Is China fearful of another Taiping Rebellion- and if so is it because of the religious fanaticism or the threat to their political control? Is the answer repression or more openness?
Considering how flakey Falun-Gong is (and believe me, I think it's nutty)- wouldn't China be better off if it allowed its people more religious diversity and freedom?
Since you're fairly new here, I can assume you haven't read past threads (for instance when I argued with John that China is not a serious military threat, and won't be for a few years). But if all you want to hear is praise for China and being Chinese, than this is the wrong place. However, if you want to sing those praises, you could post them.
THe funny thing about having CHinese students is the insight they give you on China. I am also worried about the declining quality of Chinese students. They seem to be very quiet and un-involved in class but very concerned about grades and, sadly, more likely to plagarize than express their own thoughts. Another Chinese student said to me that if China what matters is what your grade is, not how you got it. So if you get good grades but cheat, there is little sanction, at least in the public schools. If this is the nature of the next generation of Chinese, than there is even more to worry about.
Now you may say, "We're making progress" or "Give us more time." But that's getting a bit old. How much progress do you have to make? YOu're already a leading economy. How much time? But more importantly, what have you done to deserve that? Because time and patience are an expense and while the rest of the world has been generous, China has done little to merit that credit.
Ok, you may give us the various excuses Starseeker as provided. But China's growth has come at the expense of the rest of the world, partially because of China's economy of scale. If the rest of the world were to reap those similar benefits, than China might be in trouble. So honestly, I think the West should stop investing in China and start looking at the rest of the developing world, where people could use more economic growth.
And this might be in the West's best interests. Because, based on what Starseeker mentions which I agree with, Chinese business ethics are not healthy for a growing global economy.
@ Starseeker-
Interesting thoughts about the idea of Chinese family survival strategies. I agree with you about the "Mandate from Heaven" and the "Confucian systems of social control." But the family survival system is an interesting thought.
What you mention about the Cultural Revolution is also interesting. I had known that the 1970s and 80s the backlash against the excesses of the CR led to a change in political leadership and direction, but hadn't thought about it in terms of cultural history. Interesting.
But your views on China are mirrored by what my brother has been telling me, as well as others who do business in China, about Chinese ethics. Very chaotic, very competitive and except betrayal.
But that makes me wonder. I have always doubted Weber's Protestant Ethic, but I wonder if the lack of that ethic might harm CHina in the furture.
At the heart of Weber's thesis is the idea that early Calvinists changed their business due to irrational religious ideas. They moved away from a practice of making high profits by ripping off the people they do business with- creating an atmosphere of distrust in business. This notion of "getting the best of the deal" creates extended arms-length agreements and more interest in self-sufficiency.
According to Weber, these Calvinists moved towards more regular and stable business practices in which business people took less profit, but did more honest and fair business with each other. Consequently business people could trust and work with each other more effectively creating stronger commercial and social networks among communities. The idea spread. Today we see variations of that even in the Uniformed Commercial Code where the law will seek to find gaps in contracts to make bargains work.
Like I said, I discount Weber's belief that religion played the roll in changing business practices. As argued elsewhere, you can see variation of this in the Freemasons, and within other communities based on other social ties (for example Jewish communities).
If in China you have a society that distrusts each other, where competition is heady and chaotic, than aren't you creating a problem. TO some extent the CCP might alleviate this by providing a social network of like minded individuals. In that way perhaps that has been the contribution of the CCP to China's expansion.
But if business becomes more competitive and distrust is high, members of the CCP may become more involved in profit that politics, than doesn't that jeopardize China's economy?
brandons1313
It Wandered In From the Wastes
China torture 'still widespread'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4491026.stm
Surprising? No.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4491026.stm
Surprising? No.
welsh
Junkmaster
Speaking of China-
hi, newbie here but want to say this
:arrow: - First of all the intention of this post is unclear, the concerns mentiones in the first post about china's transparency isn't just a problem in china, In fact i can say almost every goverment has it's evil secrets
:arrow: - secondly blaming china for a big population is totally wrong because:
1. China has a 1 child policy (shows the desire for improvement)
and shows Chinese goverment want to reduce population size.
:arrow: - Whereas countries such as India,Pakistan and Bangladesh are nation with big populations, infact so big that they rely on international aid to feed some of it's people etc...
(by the way if you add up the 3 countries's population you will quickly notice that its way more than China's population so...)
:arrow: - I can understand why people are affraid of China, as we all feel uncertain. But if you look at china's development and notice china's improvement you will understand why i strongly support the uprise of China and its republic (specially if you know the history of China)
:arrow: - Another point to address is the pollution problem:
1. first of all one of the most polluting country happens to be USA
2. Eventhough its true that the uprise of china will cause severe pollution problems,
BUT its unfair to dislike China for that reason because every nation (including mine) has gone through this process (you know farming industry--> secondary industry -->.... dying earth
)
:arrow: Finally the problem of poor and wealth gap problem:
1. many nations has this problem (yes including US)
2. Blameing China for spending too much on weaponary and defence is wrong. To understand why you must know the history of China.
(for the people intrested)
China has gone through many decades of war:
1. Invasion of 8 nations at the same time
- UK, France, Germany, Russia, Portugal, Japan, forgot the rest
- folowed by 8 year resistant war against Japan
-Civil war Comunism VS capatalism
:!: Which caused the Taiwan problem in the first place So I strongly belief Taiwan is part of China :!:
...
Got to go that is it for now
Feel free to post comments
:arrow: - First of all the intention of this post is unclear, the concerns mentiones in the first post about china's transparency isn't just a problem in china, In fact i can say almost every goverment has it's evil secrets
:arrow: - secondly blaming china for a big population is totally wrong because:
1. China has a 1 child policy (shows the desire for improvement)
and shows Chinese goverment want to reduce population size.
:arrow: - Whereas countries such as India,Pakistan and Bangladesh are nation with big populations, infact so big that they rely on international aid to feed some of it's people etc...
(by the way if you add up the 3 countries's population you will quickly notice that its way more than China's population so...)
:arrow: - I can understand why people are affraid of China, as we all feel uncertain. But if you look at china's development and notice china's improvement you will understand why i strongly support the uprise of China and its republic (specially if you know the history of China)
:arrow: - Another point to address is the pollution problem:
1. first of all one of the most polluting country happens to be USA
2. Eventhough its true that the uprise of china will cause severe pollution problems,
BUT its unfair to dislike China for that reason because every nation (including mine) has gone through this process (you know farming industry--> secondary industry -->.... dying earth
):arrow: Finally the problem of poor and wealth gap problem:
1. many nations has this problem (yes including US)
2. Blameing China for spending too much on weaponary and defence is wrong. To understand why you must know the history of China.
(for the people intrested)
China has gone through many decades of war:
1. Invasion of 8 nations at the same time
- UK, France, Germany, Russia, Portugal, Japan, forgot the rest
- folowed by 8 year resistant war against Japan
-Civil war Comunism VS capatalism
:!: Which caused the Taiwan problem in the first place So I strongly belief Taiwan is part of China :!:
...
Got to go that is it for now
Feel free to post comments
Re: hi, newbie here but want to say this
:arrow: - You wouldn't happen to be Chinese, would you?
S said:
:arrow: - You wouldn't happen to be Chinese, would you?
welsh
Junkmaster
Those who use arrows will be shot.
The thread is not so much about what is wrong with the world. Merely pointing out that everyone else has a dirty past doesn't justify your dirt.
The question here are China's problems. Like it or not, China will be an increasingly important country in the near future. But what kind of country?
There are a lot of apologetics for China, but why? What has China done to deserve this much sympathy?
The thread is not so much about what is wrong with the world. Merely pointing out that everyone else has a dirty past doesn't justify your dirt.
The question here are China's problems. Like it or not, China will be an increasingly important country in the near future. But what kind of country?
There are a lot of apologetics for China, but why? What has China done to deserve this much sympathy?
Ok, won't use arrows again since you hate it, to answer your question of why to have sympathy for China.
Well, first of all you don't need to have sympathy for China, but you can at least not be biased on what you think of China. and try to understand what it really means for the people of China to break free from the many decades of famine, war , etc.
Also want to say that as China develops, many aspects such as human rights would problaly gradually follow toward the better, so China becoming an important economic power is a step forward to the better
Well i don't live in China but i still belief that the current development of China is a good thing for its people
One more thing what do you mean by problems, do you mean problems created as a result of china's development
:
Well, first of all you don't need to have sympathy for China, but you can at least not be biased on what you think of China. and try to understand what it really means for the people of China to break free from the many decades of famine, war , etc.
Also want to say that as China develops, many aspects such as human rights would problaly gradually follow toward the better, so China becoming an important economic power is a step forward to the better
Well i don't live in China but i still belief that the current development of China is a good thing for its people
One more thing what do you mean by problems, do you mean problems created as a result of china's development
:Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
I might need to be careful. This guy could be another one of those political monitoring group guys posting raw, raw(as in go, go ) China comments. 
Can anyone check if his IP is in China?
Does anyone know how to use a proxy server? I have the distinct feeling of being watched online these days. A lot of pages wouldn't load and most of my posts take a long time to upload. And don't think I am joking either, they are crazy enough to spend money on this.
I shall now refer to China = CN to avoid any problem. And Welsh please don't type FLG out, that attracts these types like flies.
Anyway, I've been meaning to post this, but like I said, I had some connection problem to deal with.
----------------
(This new news seems to make my entire post redundant, but I digress. I shall reply to the news at hand a moment later. I always write my post somewhere else and just past them over, so there is a bit of time lapse.)
China 2 –
It’s amusing to see that whenever the discussion about China turns serious, the thread dies. Anyway, let’s continue. As for the discussion about FLG, I won’t bother with it. If China wants to spend millions of dollars chasing a ghost, be my guest. It’s funny how China is seemingly spending more money and energy in 1. getting Lai back, 2. tracking FLG “terrorists” than doing any actual spying or contribute to the Republican’s coffers for political favours.
I have always marvelled the fact that the Chinese government spends so much more money and energy to spy on its own people than on others. It’s such a departure from the earlier Soviet style government where almost everyone who came in is spied on, and everyone who went out is most likely an agent trying recruit communist sympathizers for Chinese causes. (Actually, this tactic backfired a lot, after having a taste of money and freedom, most of them doesn’t come back. =P )
And yet China is paranoid in a way that the U.S is paranoid about the middle east. The U.S still have some lingering cold war feeling among its masses, since years of propaganda and prejudiced media coverage are hard to overcome. China is the same, except for the fact that its lingering bad taste left by the foreigners has lasted for 200 years. Its(China) long history and the Confucius’ doctrine enables it to hold long grudges. I need not repeat the tale of the Opium wars and the subsequent carving of China by the 8 foreign(to China) nations through a serious of wars. Any westerners visiting Beijing should visit the Old Summer Palace near the outskirts of the city. It is quite a chilling sight to behold. One of the Grandest and most beautiful Baroque + Chinese style Palace and Garden in the world, lies in ruins. It’s build in a fusion of east meets west before both terms were invented. The Garden and the famous waterfall would have been amazing in its heyday. The technology of the water supply and the piping system was one of the most advanced in its time. According to the pictures, drawings, and records of the time, the Old Summer Palace would probably be one of the top 5 world heritage sites as decreed by UNESCO. The scope and the beauty of it would have rivalled any ancient wonders in the world. But it’s destroyed, gone.
It’s ironic because the central part of the garden that is housed with the famous waterfall is a chapel. The chapel was for one of the Emperor’s favourite Queen who was a Christian. The center piece of the garden and palace was build according to her wishes. It was a testament to her desire to build bridges and farther relationships between the Chinese and the West. The subsequent lost of lives and hatred bred through the countless wars might not have happened if she got what she wished for. The Boxing rebellion, which had the greatest lost of lives in a war in the last 200 years, might not have happened if there was a way for both sides to meet in the middle like this. There is nothing left except heaps of rubble and crappy add-ons left behind by politically connected “entrepreneurs” in the early 90s in a pathetic attempt of a theme park. As a part Chinese, it felt kinda raw to see part of my history and heritage in ruins like that.
History lessons aside, most of the westerns probably just need to know that this fact is drilled into most of the Mainland Chinese people’s skulls. Almost all Chinese kids hear this, “We were the most advanced, and civilized culture in the world, until one day, the westerners/Japanese (devils) came in with the technology they had stolen and begged from us, destroyed it all.”. Dramatic historical antics aside, the Chinese do admit that the Ching Dynasty was corrupt and decadent and the system probably needed a major overhaul. But they are also quite adamant on the fact that – 1. They were quite capable of figuring it out themselves, 2. It’s fairly clear what the 8 nations intended from the very beginning.
Side note: It was funny to read in Sherlock Holmes that the opium dens were demonic Chinese invention of sort. LOL It’s even more ironic that the best and the most of the pure heroine that is popular now among the Americas, England and parts of Europe is produced and trafficked by Asian triads. Someone’s idea of a joke, I suppose.
(I’ll type more at a later time, work calls)
ps: http://www.rtoddking.com/chinasum2004_bj_os.htm
Can anyone check if his IP is in China?Does anyone know how to use a proxy server? I have the distinct feeling of being watched online these days. A lot of pages wouldn't load and most of my posts take a long time to upload. And don't think I am joking either, they are crazy enough to spend money on this.
I shall now refer to China = CN to avoid any problem. And Welsh please don't type FLG out, that attracts these types like flies.
Anyway, I've been meaning to post this, but like I said, I had some connection problem to deal with.
----------------
(This new news seems to make my entire post redundant, but I digress. I shall reply to the news at hand a moment later. I always write my post somewhere else and just past them over, so there is a bit of time lapse.)
China 2 –
It’s amusing to see that whenever the discussion about China turns serious, the thread dies. Anyway, let’s continue. As for the discussion about FLG, I won’t bother with it. If China wants to spend millions of dollars chasing a ghost, be my guest. It’s funny how China is seemingly spending more money and energy in 1. getting Lai back, 2. tracking FLG “terrorists” than doing any actual spying or contribute to the Republican’s coffers for political favours.
I have always marvelled the fact that the Chinese government spends so much more money and energy to spy on its own people than on others. It’s such a departure from the earlier Soviet style government where almost everyone who came in is spied on, and everyone who went out is most likely an agent trying recruit communist sympathizers for Chinese causes. (Actually, this tactic backfired a lot, after having a taste of money and freedom, most of them doesn’t come back. =P )
And yet China is paranoid in a way that the U.S is paranoid about the middle east. The U.S still have some lingering cold war feeling among its masses, since years of propaganda and prejudiced media coverage
are hard to overcome. China is the same, except for the fact that its lingering bad taste left by the foreigners has lasted for 200 years. Its(China) long history and the Confucius’ doctrine enables it to hold long grudges. I need not repeat the tale of the Opium wars and the subsequent carving of China by the 8 foreign(to China) nations through a serious of wars. Any westerners visiting Beijing should visit the Old Summer Palace near the outskirts of the city. It is quite a chilling sight to behold. One of the Grandest and most beautiful Baroque + Chinese style Palace and Garden in the world, lies in ruins. It’s build in a fusion of east meets west before both terms were invented. The Garden and the famous waterfall would have been amazing in its heyday. The technology of the water supply and the piping system was one of the most advanced in its time. According to the pictures, drawings, and records of the time, the Old Summer Palace would probably be one of the top 5 world heritage sites as decreed by UNESCO. The scope and the beauty of it would have rivalled any ancient wonders in the world. But it’s destroyed, gone. It’s ironic because the central part of the garden that is housed with the famous waterfall is a chapel. The chapel was for one of the Emperor’s favourite Queen who was a Christian. The center piece of the garden and palace was build according to her wishes. It was a testament to her desire to build bridges and farther relationships between the Chinese and the West. The subsequent lost of lives and hatred bred through the countless wars might not have happened if she got what she wished for. The Boxing rebellion, which had the greatest lost of lives in a war in the last 200 years, might not have happened if there was a way for both sides to meet in the middle like this. There is nothing left except heaps of rubble and crappy add-ons left behind by politically connected “entrepreneurs” in the early 90s in a pathetic attempt of a theme park. As a part Chinese, it felt kinda raw to see part of my history and heritage in ruins like that.
History lessons aside, most of the westerns probably just need to know that this fact is drilled into most of the Mainland Chinese people’s skulls. Almost all Chinese kids hear this, “We were the most advanced, and civilized culture in the world, until one day, the westerners/Japanese (devils) came in with the technology they had stolen and begged from us, destroyed it all.”. Dramatic historical antics aside, the Chinese do admit that the Ching Dynasty was corrupt and decadent and the system probably needed a major overhaul. But they are also quite adamant on the fact that – 1. They were quite capable of figuring it out themselves, 2. It’s fairly clear what the 8 nations intended from the very beginning.
Side note: It was funny to read in Sherlock Holmes that the opium dens were demonic Chinese invention of sort. LOL It’s even more ironic that the best and the most of the pure heroine that is popular now among the Americas, England and parts of Europe is produced and trafficked by Asian triads. Someone’s idea of a joke, I suppose.
(I’ll type more at a later time, work calls)
ps: http://www.rtoddking.com/chinasum2004_bj_os.htm
Quantos Leap
It Wandered In From the Wastes
S said:
Because it would truly take someone with some sort of superficial ethnic relation or national relation to said country to spout all the bullshit you just did. If you were a Chinese national, it'd be more understandable. You'd be wrong, but it'd still be understandable.
You're fooling yourself if you think other countries suffer at any level close to the level China does. It is different here. Here we may have a few evil men in high places with agendas and unspeakable acts under their belt, but it is them, not the entire consolidation. The dynamic of our country doesn't really allow for the level China is used to. See, in the Unites States, anything of the sort is considered corruption. In China, it's just China doing what they do. Their people must abide...or else they're considered a national threat and will either be arrested or executed.
We can blame Mao then, the population boom being another negative consequence of his fsck'ed up ideology.
It wouldn't be too bad if the distribution wasn't so uneven. As far as I know, the vast majority of the chinese live in the the eastern part of the country. Could China expand and develop west?
It's just that there has got to be a better way than the ruthless one child policy. The policy is supposed to ease troubles for the chinese people yet it creates more by forcing people into infanticide and forced abortion. Not to mention that if such happens, it's usually the female offspring that gets the stick because of some backward "male superiority" belief.
The problem is we do know the history of China, and that's what gets everyone concerned. Until China can get their act together regarding civil liberties and shake that cold war mentality, I'll never support them as a super power.
Again, the extent of China's inequality is vastly incomparable to America's problem with it.
The only reason China would ever be attacked in this day and age is if they try to retake Taiwan. Just don't do it, and concentrate on the severe internal problems you have.
I, and the rest of the world doesn't.
Only in China would you have to worry about something like that, eh?
Starseeker
Vault Senior Citizen
I just read through this guy's post.
He is most likely from a political monitoring group. Most of his povs are Exactly the same as that of the CP's line. If he isn't working for them or trying to get political favors thereof, he is brainwashed to the point of idiocy.
The funny thing is?
Most Chinese abhours authority of any sort. There is a reason why the Chinese perfer to deal with disputes amoung themselves. The reason why you see new Chinese immigrants as quiet? They usually don't want any trouble from the Authority. Then they learn that they actually live in a free country of their choosing, and they change. The Chinese justice system has almost always been corrupt through out the dynasties. And of the rare Mandarin(the official) that is honest and good to people? Epic ballads and story are written for them. In the old days, you are pretty much Guilty until proven innocent, because if you aren't, how could you possibly get yourself involved in the situation?
Anyway, IP checK?
After double checking his posts, I just noticed that he threw out 2 popular standard CP lines in manuplating westerners -
YOU just DON't understand China!
Our problems are ALL YOUR FAULT!
Welsh, you need to stop posting politically sensitive news bits, you might get me in trouble, and I have to work here.
BTW, it's funny to see that he is hoping someone will be a western apologist or slobbering CEO.
He is most likely from a political monitoring group. Most of his povs are Exactly the same as that of the CP's line. If he isn't working for them or trying to get political favors thereof, he is brainwashed to the point of idiocy.
The funny thing is?
Most Chinese abhours authority of any sort. There is a reason why the Chinese perfer to deal with disputes amoung themselves. The reason why you see new Chinese immigrants as quiet? They usually don't want any trouble from the Authority. Then they learn that they actually live in a free country of their choosing, and they change. The Chinese justice system has almost always been corrupt through out the dynasties. And of the rare Mandarin(the official) that is honest and good to people? Epic ballads and story are written for them. In the old days, you are pretty much Guilty until proven innocent, because if you aren't, how could you possibly get yourself involved in the situation?
Anyway, IP checK?
After double checking his posts, I just noticed that he threw out 2 popular standard CP lines in manuplating westerners -
YOU just DON't understand China!
Our problems are ALL YOUR FAULT!
Welsh, you need to stop posting politically sensitive news bits, you might get me in trouble, and I have to work here.
BTW, it's funny to see that he is hoping someone will be a western apologist or slobbering CEO.
just want to address this point
The only reason China would ever be attacked in this day and age is if they try to retake Taiwan. Just don't do it, and concentrate on the severe internal problems you have.
RETAKE, in the first place Taiwan is and always have been part of China in the first place. It is just that many people don't know why or won't accept this.
By the way what i see in the press about Taiwan is pure propaganda of a sort, it only shows the people of taiwan as of they are being forced to be part of China, but in fact if you go to Taiwan you will notice that Taiwan also has many people that don't want to be independent and be separated.
unfortunately no one will get to see that side of argument because what many western countries get to see is what their press wants the people wants to see
The only reason China would ever be attacked in this day and age is if they try to retake Taiwan. Just don't do it, and concentrate on the severe internal problems you have.
RETAKE, in the first place Taiwan is and always have been part of China in the first place. It is just that many people don't know why or won't accept this.
By the way what i see in the press about Taiwan is pure propaganda of a sort, it only shows the people of taiwan as of they are being forced to be part of China, but in fact if you go to Taiwan you will notice that Taiwan also has many people that don't want to be independent and be separated.
unfortunately no one will get to see that side of argument because what many western countries get to see is what their press wants the people wants to see
don't worry, you won't get into trouble. I thought this forum is whrere you can say anything you want even it it is extreme as long as it isn't offensiveStarseeker said:I might need to be careful. This guy could be another one of those political monitoring group guys posting raw, raw(as in go, go ) China comments.
Does anyone know how to use a proxy server? I have the distinct feeling of being watched online these days. A lot of pages wouldn't load and most of my posts take a long time to upload. And don't think I am joking either, they are crazy enough to spend money on this.
I shall now refer to China = CN to avoid any problem. And Welsh please don't type FLG out, that attracts these types like flies.
(I’ll type more at a later time, work calls)
ps: http://www.rtoddking.com/chinasum2004_bj_os.htm
Anyway, I've been meaning to post this, but like I said, I had some connection problem to deal with.
Uhm, if they want to become non-independant, they wouldn't resist being annexed, would they?
I mean... if people want something, you don't have to force them to do it, because if you have to force someone to do something, it's because they don't want to do it.
I mean... if people want something, you don't have to force them to do it, because if you have to force someone to do something, it's because they don't want to do it.
Starseeker said:
i am not from China, why won't you guys believe me : "YOU just DON't understand China! " many people actually don't
understand why china is so today and, they don't realise that these changes requires many years to change for the better.
As many of you live in a so called "free" and sees can would think that can is evil when rights are concerned, but you must accept that these problems require time to change.
Remind those who forgot that china is a communist nation, so see the long road ahead
"Our problems are ALL YOUR FAULT!" well some problems are caused by "your" faults. *But* not all. The problem of 1 child policy is a good policy this is the reason why:
- can has 1.6 billion (overestimate) people
- Cn's facilities cannot support every single one, and chances are that many new born will die or lack in education.
- The majority of people benefit from this policy.
- The problem of having a biased male offspring is really not caused by this policy as the main source of problem isn't the cause. Even without this policy the ideology is what is driving the problem.
And the main way to solve the problem is through education!!!
which means to ensure education is for every child where possible the policy is a must
Hey if you guy's don't like my point of view discuss it and not be rude thank you